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[Laerise [PIE]]

I don't think you have ever had to operate any large machinery - or artillery guns for that matter.

You will always need to have at least 1 loader to make sure stuff doesn't break down, ammo doesn't get stuck somehow - especially if you are to operate reliably under battlefield conditions.

And this is why, personally, I think the whole "my crew is drones" thing doesn't work. There are just too many tasks, even on a wet navy ship, that require quite a bit of improvisation, something drones with the AI limiations of CONCORD can simply not manage to emulate.

To illustrate this argument with an example:

Your ship gets hit in the "hull breach sealant nano thingmayum tank" and all of a sudden the drones who are programmed to get some "hull breach sealant nano thingmayum" can't get any - and are in turn left sitting in front of a broken piece of hull.
A human on the other hand could try to just yam/plaster something that's at hand over the hole, even if its the lid of a crate of Starsi "The drink for Patriots!" TM.

[Seriphyn]

I think folk need to remember that all capsule-fitted vessels are on-par with each other in terms of technology. All of them are controlled by a Jovian piece of tech, after all.

It's the non-capsule vessels (NPCs being the majority of EVE after all), that these differences would be the greatest.

[Desiderya]

And this is why, personally, I think the whole "my crew is drones" thing doesn't work.

Human workforce is cheaper after a certain point. Same with ground-combat-drones. Having the technology to build efficient AI controlled fighting drones is one thing, deploying them economically another. I'd say the reason why the federation is big into drones comes from both their history (to counter fighters in the war) and even more so from the fact that they have the funds for it. Loosing human life may be more of a PR desaster on the home-front than it would be for the other cultures, who see giving your life for god, country, the tribe, the cause through more idealized goggles.

To throw some analogies from fiction around, the capsuleer takes up the role of the captain and all of the high-ranking officers, the bridge crew from the ST universe, basically. Everything that just needs to get done to get these results is in the hand of regular crewmen.

[Casiella]

The "issue" here really just focuses on frigates. Can, say, a Rifter operate equally well without the *one* crew member? I'm much more confident that little droids can run around with duct tape and welding torches for that little ship than for larger ships where much more can go wrong and we don't expect them to shake and rattle as we undock.

[Desiderya]

Small is relative. We're talking about a ship in the dimensions of big modern widebody-aircraft. While technology is far more advanced, complexity has gone through the roof as well. Add on bonus: It's designed to get shot at.
I wouldn't rule that out so easily, and the one person for the capsuleer ship is "minimum required crew". I'm not sure what was said at the presentation, but I think it covers the basic functions like an unfitted ship.
I'd still say that human crewmen would be far more flexible than even the most advanced automatons, since they're geared and equipped to excel at a specific task. Even with complex reasoning skills you don't want to have "sentient" machines on board. Also one could think about remote controlling machines to do the work more effectively, similar to the pilots of fighters instead of the usage of even bigger drones for carriers.
But yeah, who knows what the future could or could not bring.

[Z.Sinraali]

Also one could think about remote controlling machines to do the work more effectively, similar to the pilots of fighters instead of the usage of even bigger drones for carriers.

This is actually something I've thought about on occasion, and if I remember right it's my go-to explanation for things like hacking and salvaging which my character has no particular talent or training for. Given the realities of instantaneous telecommunication with fluid routers, it'd be quite possible to execute many functions remotely, using experts at a base station to perform tasks in a dangerous environment without risking losing their skills and having to hire new ones. (Or for the ones who get space motion sickness easily.)

[Lyn Farel]

The "issue" here really just focuses on frigates. Can, say, a Rifter operate equally well without the *one* crew member? I'm much more confident that little droids can run around with duct tape and welding torches for that little ship than for larger ships where much more can go wrong and we don't expect them to shake and rattle as we undock.

I would say it is one thing to send nanomachines to rep your armor or your hull, and another thing to monitor and fix all the delicate systems that have to be fixed in a difficult moment. Maybe you need some human assistance too when you need to collect stuff and bring it into the cargohold. A tractor beam and automated systems will do most of the work, but still.

Mhh, ok we have nanite paste for broken delicate modules... :/

[Horatius Caul]

These are EM weapons. These are why drone crews on warships is a bad idea.

Sure, you have shield systems and ablative energized armour designed to keep radiation out, but what happens once your shields are down and your armour is being ripped to little tiny pieces by nuclear warheads, crippling the electronics of your ship? If you're relying entirely on a drone maintenance force you're going to have fried husks cluttering the corridors and maintenance ducts, where a human crew could work perfectly fine and just slap up some emergency field emitters.


This would be especially true on combat frigates - narrow margin craft that can expect to operate in structure more often than not if they find good fights.

[Victoria Valadeus]

These are EM weapons. These are why drone crews on warships is a bad idea.

 

[Victoria Stecker]

Mhh, ok we have nanite paste for broken delicate modules... :/

Someone's gotta be there with a squeeze tube and a spatula to get the paste in the right places.

On a more serious note, I think we have physical crew for the same reason we pilot our ships rather than just having all of our fleets run by massive computer programs. Human beings think. They are creative. They prioritize. They adapt, think on their feet, etc. For menial, predictable tasks, a drone is great. Anything which will require improvisation, problem solving, jury rigging, or prayer¹, you want a human. There are few things less predictable than frigate combat, therefor it's not a setting that drones will be particularly suited to.


1: I imagine Amarrian ships having a room where a couple of crewmen hang out and pray, "God, let our repper cycle before their guns do, God let our capacitor hold out..."

[Desiderya]

AIs are not incapable of reasoning, and I imagine they'll be even more amazing in the distant future than they are now, making first baby steps. But you don't want that kind of sentience on your everyday machines, which makes humans better suited for the task.


@EM Weaponry: They, and other kinds of weaponry, are even better at mauling soft fleshy hulls. Crewmen using machinery, either remote controlled or autonomous, seems to be the most rational approach, since it covers most of the bases regarding possible interior stress on machinery and electronics.

[Z.Sinraali]

My frigate crews consist entirely of 3 20 40 battle fedos.

[Lyn Farel]

AIs are not incapable of reasoning, and I imagine they'll be even more amazing in the distant future than they are now, making first baby steps. But you don't want that kind of sentience on your everyday machines, which makes humans better suited for the task.

AIs, yes, but I doubt people in New Eden use evolved AIs (at least on combat starships or weaponry), for very similar reasons than in mass effect : Geth = Rogue drones ?

[Katrina Oniseki]

EM and EMP are different. EMP, the Electromagnetic PULSE, is what you're probably thinking of when you talk about disabling drones and electronics. It's a very specific kind of effect, and is the EM equivalent of an explosion shockwave. EM weapons can deal anything from cancer causing gamma radiation, to flesh searing microwave radiation, and all manner of in between and around. Take a look at any of the laser crystals. ALL of them are based somewhere on the Electromagnetic (EM) spectrum, but none of them constitute an EMP.

Similarly, all of them will probably make jelly out of crewmembers, but not all of them will have an effect on sensitive electronics beyond thermal damage.

I would wager though that the missiles and projectile shells DO deal in EMP, instead of directed EM radiation, so those would be a significant thread to electronics.

Just because you're using EM (read: Electromagnetic) weaponry doesn't mean it will disable electronics, and it certainly doesn't mean fleshy crews will go unaffected.

[Horatius Caul]

EM and EMP are different. EMP, the Electromagnetic PULSE, is what you're probably thinking of when you talk about disabling drones and electronics. It's a very specific kind of effect, and is the EM equivalent of an explosion shockwave. EM weapons can deal anything from cancer causing gamma radiation, to flesh searing microwave radiation, and all manner of in between and around. Take a look at any of the laser crystals. ALL of them are based somewhere on the Electromagnetic (EM) spectrum, but none of them constitute an EMP.

Similarly, all of them will probably make jelly out of crewmembers, but not all of them will have an effect on sensitive electronics beyond thermal damage.

I would wager though that the missiles and projectile shells DO deal in EMP, instead of directed EM radiation, so those would be a significant thread to electronics.

Just because you're using EM (read: Electromagnetic) weaponry doesn't mean it will disable electronics, and it certainly doesn't mean fleshy crews will go unaffected.

All true. Lasers and hybrids probably wont interfere with your cellphone, and I never meant to suggest that a blue missile wouldn't hurt a fly, just that when you're in a battle with nuclear munitions, there will be unpredictable EMP bursts going on. The choice would be between having a useful but fleshy crew, or an automated maintenance system that could potentially be completely useless.

The human crew does probably have machinery and remote drones for fixing things, but the important thing is that if things go horribly wrong that same human crew can just buckle up their suits and get down there with some spanners and beat on things.