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[Jace]

In my opinion, the IP thing would be the final killer for many people. Myself included. There are plenty of alts that I just do not want overly associated with Jace. So just Jace and the alts that I have mentioned several times are mine would show up to such forums.

Edit: it is also just begging for people to go screaming over the OOC/IC border more than they already do.

This is why I mentioned it. While most of my alts are public knowledge, and deliberately so on my part, I do have a few that I have not disclosed specifically because I want to be left alone when I use them whether to RP or post on the forums or just play the stupid game, and not have to deal with other things carried over from my others. (As an aside: It's worth noting that even if we ignore IP addresses, you'd still be associating the API keys with forum accounts that would separately be tracked by the system in most cases anyway. So unless you want to make five zillion accounts each with unique email addresses...)

The best thing we can do that works for the most people, is to convince CCP to start moderating their own forum according to their own rules.

The other option is to have a forum that allows connection via proxy servers. I have a separate email address for each character - so as long as a site didn't protect against the use of Tor, I could participate.

[Mizhara]

I don't really see it as a problem to be honest. It'd be an alternative forum and you wouldn't have to use alts on it if you didn't want to reveal the main. If the alternatives are a) Try to get CCP to unfuck the IGS which is never going to happen or b) Make an alternative to the IGS for those willing to use that, I don't see there being a contest.

Obviously it might fail, but Backstage took the same risk when that was started. You don't have to use API checks either. We don't use them here, after all.

[Morwen Lagann]

API stuff is not for 'checks' for access permissions, it is to allow people to post as several characters without needing unique accounts for each. Which is still a moot point, with IP addresses.

No matter who the moderation/admin staff ends up being, as long as the team is large enough to be capable of doing their job, there's going to be someone on the team that people will object to having that kind of knowledge.

"Well, don't post with that alt then" is really not an acceptable stance to take. I should not have to use a proxy or w/e every time I want to post as one of the alts I don't want attached to myself. They're separate because I don't want to be bugged with Morwen-stuff when I use them, because I want to be left alone and treated as a separate individual without all the baggage. The rest of my alts (Naoko, Mirelle, Keta, Suzelle, etc.) are public knowledge because I want them to be, and don't mind people knowing about the connection or poking me about stuff when I use them.

[Jace]

Well, people do have to decide whether they want to put in the effort to create it, moderate it, etc. That makes it less of an obvious choice, Miz. People will not want to build it if they won't come.

[Louella Dougans]

most of the stuff I said before still applies, I think

Also:

with the "The Summit" and "Intergalactic Summit" ingame chat channels incident, then it would seem clear that some people have CCPs proverbial ear. That whole thing was because "The Summit" banned people from the channel, and that "restricted access" to event actors.

So I don't think a new IC section would have any interaction from event actors. And there is the possibility, that someone bends CCPs ear enough that backstage.eve-inspiracy.com gets added to the forum auto-filter, just like kugutsumen did. Which would be detrimental to all of backstage, and the people that use it. Linking something in backstage ingame ? someone with a grudge might even report that, and you end up getting banned from EVE.

It's a slim risk, imo, but one that cannot be entirely dismissed, given the environment that seems to exist in EVE atm.


Also:

Pro: IC sections allow people not subscribed to EVE to contribute to EVE rp
Con: IC sections allow people not subscribed to EVE to contribute to EVE rp

[Lyn Farel]

In my opinion, the IP thing would be the final killer for many people. Myself included. There are plenty of alts that I just do not want overly associated with Jace. So just Jace and the alts that I have mentioned several times are mine would show up to such forums.

Edit: it is also just begging for people to go screaming over the OOC/IC border more than they already do.

Heh, I understand the point, but it could also be a mean of protection for people against alt harassment and abuse. And that, I have seen at least equally to people being harassed on their main due to actions on their alts.

[Mizhara]

Well, the IGS today finally lost the last spec of worth it ever had to me, so if I'd had the resources and technical know how to make it unique enough, I'd have set up an alternative myself. I suppose it's kind of an Eve way of going about things, killing off any conceivable enjoyment others might have and sit victorious in the ruins, but it's just not worth it anymore.

We'll never get CCP to unfuck the IGS and I suspect we'll never set up an alternative either, mostly because :effort:, which basically means the Diana Kim Show gets to be the only channel on the airwaves. Hrr.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Seems to me there is no reason one of you interested in the idea of an IC forum could not just get off your ass and make one. If no one uses it oh well, what exactly will you lose. If it had a recruitment section I would use it. Also if you used one of the "split by empires/ideology" ideas from earlier in the thread I could see using it for some ideas I'm kicking around.

If you lack the ability to make it yourself but you have some isk there are a bunch of people who will do web design for it. Just look through the EVEo sell forum.

[Jace]

Pro: IC sections allow people not subscribed to EVE to contribute to EVE rp
Con: IC sections allow people not subscribed to EVE to contribute to EVE rp

I didn't even think of this. Absolutely a Con for me. This by itself means I would not participate in such an arena with any character whatsoever.

[Mizhara]

There's bit more to it than that, though. A good tie-in with the Inspiracy domain would be very beneficial for a whole bunch of reasons and something for/from the RP community should be made and administrated by the RP community. There's also the planning (smoke-filled room if anyone remembers those days) stage, dividing up responsibilities and setting up good rulesets beforehand, etc etc.

Something like this is way beyond a one-man operation. Backstage is living proof of it, and of the viability for that matter.

@Jace: Easy solution, character must be subscribed to post. Rulesets can be worked out with relative ease.

[Jace]

We'll never get CCP to unfuck the IGS and I suspect we'll never set up an alternative either, mostly because :effort:, which basically means the Diana Kim Show gets to be the only channel on the airwaves. Hrr.

I'm still hoping she takes another break. The IGS was useable when she went on her haitus/altus.

Edit: Also, not that it is any justification whatsoever, but to those that think she is actually trolling. Sadly, no. I had a very long OOC discussion with her late last year I think it was and she absolutely thinks she is providing content, opportunities, and dynamics to EVE RP and that others are simply not putting in the effort to participate with her. It was after that when I blocked her (I realize this is not an option for many, but it simply makes scrolling through an IGS thread faster). I can almost handle trolls and shitposters, despite their malicious intent - if someone genuinely thinks they are contributing they will not stop.

[Morwen Lagann]

There's bit more to it than that, though. A good tie-in with the Inspiracy domain would be very beneficial for a whole bunch of reasons and something for/from the RP community should be made and administrated by the RP community. There's also the planning (smoke-filled room if anyone remembers those days) stage, dividing up responsibilities and setting up good rulesets beforehand, etc etc.

Something like this is way beyond a one-man operation. Backstage is living proof of it, and of the viability for that matter.

Well, that's what I was getting at earlier, Miz. We could add another subdomain to eve-inspiracy (maybe we could call it "The Summit" as an ironic/retaliatory "fuck you" to CCP?). We've got the forum software already set up, it's not impossible to extend it to use an API system for people to be able to link characters (and portraits and corp/alliance names and tickers, etc.) to an account.

Odds are, the existing moderation team would carry over for starters since it is effectively our site (I say 'our' a little loosely, since Silver's the one slapping money down for the site atm), and then we would probably add a few (which we're already contemplating here). Rule-sets would need to be something extensively discussed before any forum could be created, however. Backstage's ruleset didn't just pop into being overnight in the SFR - I was actively participating there - and I would hope, neither would any ruleset for a proposed IC forum.

That said, as I stated earlier, my opinion is that the biggest problem with the IGS is that the existing rules as laid out by CCP are not being enforced (I actually just put in a petition complaining about that about an hour ago, fwiw). Those rules, if they were enforced, are actually sufficient to keep the forum a healthy and productive source of RP. And, in addition, they're also incredibly similar to Backstage's ruleset, with the sole exception that we have a thing explicitly discouraging twatwafflry flavored like YDIW. Well, and that we actually make a half-assed attempt of enforcing them.

[Mizhara]

Well, I'm all for everything Morwen said, basically. For starters, anyway. The sheer potential inherent in a decent player-run IC forum when it comes to faction portals and so on holds some attraction for me. Also for shits and giggles (and tradition) we'd need to have Havo and Scagga in on the planning stage. It just feels wrong not to.

[Samira Kernher]

The single biggest issue of a separate IC board is that it is bad for the longterm health of the game's RP community. By putting RP in a private location you generate a marginal increase in quality at the expense of visibility. In the short term the benefits are positive, in the longterm it leads to a smaller and smaller infusion of new blood, as people who might otherwise get encouraged to participate from seeing activity in public areas never learn about its existence. I'd say the same thing about Backstage itself but at least Backstage only functions as an OOC meeting ground and IC stuff is still kept to the official forums. This at least stimulates RPers to get involved in IC activities, and once they have that foot in the door it is easier to get them into the wider OOC aspects of the community. IGS serves a very important function as the public promotion area for the RP community, and it is the place where most people will get their first experience with RP in EVE, or even RP in general.

So, while I personally do like the idea of faction specific forums (but definitely not the tags or too much moderation, I hate strangling IC interactions with OOC moderation), I'd only be in support of it if it were on the official forums. Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely CCP would do that at this stage.

I've seen many RP communities slowly suicide themselves by cloistering in independent private forums, and so definitely won't support that here.

[Mizhara]

I would agree, if the official boards weren't repelling activity as it is. What exactly is a newcomer to the official boards going to see? The Diana Kim Show and some faction rambling? It's not exactly a good recruitment tool as it stands. Now, what newcomers will almost certainly find is the OOC/Summit channels where this sort of place would be heavily advertised (I assume) just like Backstage. We see far more new blood come here to Backstage than we ever see join in on the IGS.

The IGS isn't going to go away either, as we certainly don't have the power to close it nor would we if we had it. The place will continue on exactly as it is now, I suspect as it is right now the home for exactly the kind of posting and behaviour that a Backstage-like IC board would be less suitable for.

If the IGS is currently the public promotion area for the RP community, the RP community is hosed. It's like using 4chan as the public promotion area for a Women's Rights association.