Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mizhara]

Miz, I suggest you listen to the recording of DJ FunkyBacon's show a few hours ago on Eve Radio. He had a very level-headed discussion with past and present CSM members and some other people, and it brought up the issues without reeking of whine and troll.

Of course, hissyfits and trolls are making things worse, but there are real issues at stake here.

Oh there's of course serious issues to be dealt with here, but patience is the name of the game here. We're basing all the rage on tiny brainstorming tidbits which aren't anywhere near implementation into Eve, nor even close to real planning. We can't expect CCP to sit on pins and needles, licking our nuts every time we get a hardon for raging at Eve.

And seriously... I really am getting tired of the "Pay2Win" bullshit propaganda. There was one mention of possible ammunition sales through Aurum, without even saying whether or not it'd be better than the existing Faction/T2 ammo... and one giant article saying how bad an idea that was. If anything, the damned document leaned against such things, heavily.

The so called 'issues' that people quote as their reasons for leaving? Doesn't really exist. They're constructed on something that's so blown out of proportion, compounded by outright lies and misinformation, along with a downright ridiculous expectation that their personal opinion should matter. Newsflash, it really really really shouldn't.

Give them some freakin' time to hash things out internally. They're people with jobs, like everyone else, and none of us can demand of them to sacrifice their personal lives and time just because the community is having a hissyfit over practically nothing.

[Louella Dougans]

They also talked about standings for aurums as a possibility.

You want to put up a highsec POS, but don't have the standings? You have several options at the moment: Storyline missions, Faction warfare plexes, hiring a player to create a corp for you, hiring players to temporarily boost your corps standings.

Other than storyline missions, the other methods require player interaction.

You put standings for Aurums into game, then you remove points of player interaction. You want your highsec POS? You don't have to interact with other players, you don't have to grind if you don't want to, you can just pay for it.

You have terrible standings with a faction after umpteen missions against them, and you can no longer enter their space? Well, a few Aurums, and you can avoid that consequence of your actions too.

Jump clones too. Standings for Aurums removes the entire point of player-created services such as Estel Arador Corp Services.

So, standing for Aurum removes consequences for player actions, removes reasons to interact with other players and directly competes with and damages player-created content.

Does that not go against several of the things that make EVE what it is? Consequences of actions and player created content ?

[Mizhara]

They also talked about standings for aurums as a possibility.

You want to put up a highsec POS, but don't have the standings? You have several options at the moment: Storyline missions, Faction warfare plexes, hiring a player to create a corp for you, hiring players to temporarily boost your corps standings.

Other than storyline missions, the other methods require player interaction.

You put standings for Aurums into game, then you remove points of player interaction. You want your highsec POS? You don't have to interact with other players, you don't have to grind if you don't want to, you can just pay for it.

You have terrible standings with a faction after umpteen missions against them, and you can no longer enter their space? Well, a few Aurums, and you can avoid that consequence of your actions too.

Jump clones too. Standings for Aurums removes the entire point of player-created services such as Estel Arador Corp Services.

So, standing for Aurum removes consequences for player actions, removes reasons to interact with other players and directly competes with and damages player-created content.

Does that not go against several of the things that make EVE what it is? Consequences of actions and player created content ?

The so called 'issues' that people quote as their reasons for leaving? Doesn't really exist. They're constructed on something that's so blown out of proportion, compounded by outright lies and misinformation, along with a downright ridiculous expectation that their personal opinion should matter. Newsflash, it really really really shouldn't.

Give them some freakin' time to hash things out internally. They're people with jobs, like everyone else, and none of us can demand of them to sacrifice their personal lives and time just because the community is having a hissyfit over practically nothing.

Like it has been stated several times, it's still just a brainstorming document which mostly leans against such ideas. There's barely mention of P2W in the document, and yet people are going batshit insane over it. Patience. Give them some time to answer things in due time.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Jump clones too. Standings for Aurums removes the entire point of player-created services such as Estel Arador Corp Services.

Considering the prices CCP is tossing around, I seriously doubt many will choose to buy jump clone standings when Estel Arador is free and unlimited.

[Louella Dougans]

And what of the statements made in the past, in 2010, when the "plex for remap" kerfuffle happened, and CCP told the CSM that there would not be any non-vanity microtransactions in EVE?

And now CCP are still talking about non-vanity microtransactions in EVE.

"I know you said no before, but what if...." seems the attitude here.

Coupled with revelations from past CSM that they were shown these things, but told NDA applied, so couldn't say anything. Several CSM unsubscribed, iirc. People thought it was burnout, but maybe it wasn't.

I want to see more concrete things, but at the moment, it doesn't look great.

this Captains Quarters is disappointing. There are clipping issues when the characters walk and sit, and this is with the default, ordinary clothes that they've had for 6 months to do animations and stuff for. There are other flaws, such as a bug that I reported in one of the new player missions, which they had a month to sort, and have not yet done so.

These things make these microtransaction revelations turn from    into 

If CQ had been more impressive, then I think there would have been far less outcry.

The next book is out in December, I think. Maybe that will help.

[Invelious]

http://kotaku.com/5815445/furious-over-microtransactions-eve-online-community-explodes-with-rioting



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKAybfeq0yU&feature=related

[Milo Caman]

I really am speechless. 

[Seriphyn]

I don't really have anything to say. I suppose it's gone beyond the pain threshold, in a manner of speaking.

[Wanoah]

Oh there's of course serious issues to be dealt with here, but patience is the name of the game here.

Sure. Let's give it another 8 years shall we? Maybe they'll get something right if everyone crosses their fingers and behaves themselves? Fuck that. You have to tell them what you think anyway you can and hope they listen before it's too late.
 
Alienating the exact people that made your game a success is not the way to go about things. So, you might see a 10% fall in subscriptions initially, but that 10% are the subscribers that have stuck with you for years, when that 10% are the subscribers that have created tools and apps and content for your game, when they are the public commentators, the opinion-formers, the bloggers and the tweeters that have generated all that word-of-mouth that made your game a success then it will snowball. 10% could easily grow to 20%. 30% even. Even if you don't lose that heavily in subscribers, there are intangible losses that result even from a dozen high-profile people that are heavily active in your player community.

There's a lot of noise right now. It's the silence that could follow that will be the real problem.

Still, I openly admit that I want CCP to fail. As harsh as that sounds. I think they need to make some tough choices: change of leadership, downsizing the bloated staff levels, prioritising workloads and a concerted effort at open and honest communication internally and externally. Once the dust has settled, they are going to have to work hard to win people over. They have had years of taking Eve's players for granted. They have operated on the assumption that Eve is a cash cow to be milked and that their customers will roll over and take whatever CCP want to thrust into their ruined anuses. 'Cept this time, CCP didn't even bother with the lube in their supreme arrogance. I hope they pay. They need taking down a peg or two. Then, maybe, just maybe, we'll see a return to the values and vision that made both Eve and CCP a bit special.

[Hamish Grayson]

What I posted in my reason of unsubing all four of my accounts:

This is one of the moments where CCP need look at what your players do and less of what they say.  We are done.

[IzzyChan]

CCP: What....what...WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

This entire thing could have been avoided if CCP had a

[Kala]

An internal brainstorming document where a few tiny tidbits gets pulled out, blown out of proportion, then raged about. Oh, and the price of a fucking monocle.

Unsub over that? Really?

And what of the statements made in the past, in 2010, when the "plex for remap" kerfuffle happened, and CCP told the CSM that there would not be any non-vanity microtransactions in EVE?

And now CCP are still talking about non-vanity microtransactions in EVE.

"I know you said no before, but what if...." seems the attitude here.

This, really...


It's not the specific events in isolation, it's the general pattern and the lack of trust. It's not a sense of entitlement, it's a sense of betrayal.

Not only are they 'brainstorming' (and yes, I do also feel it is fairly legitimate in an internal newsletter to explore ideas) something they said they'd never do, but the fact a high-up dev is making what appear to be personal arguments in favour of it, is alarming:

I don't really understand the logic behind it, but that's probably because I've been using virtual goods sales for a long time now and actually prefer them over subscriptions. Why? Because they let me manage my spending, and I'll sometimes prefer to buy a better experience when engaging in my hobby.

(and the "buy a better experience" really rankles with me as a concept, btw ¬.¬) but yes, this isn't CCP policy and there was also a (imo very reasonable and well thought-out) counterpoint in the newsletter.  But people want to be reassured that this isn't going to go beyond vanity items - and have been offered no guarentee that it won't be.  There's a worry that the floodgates have now been opened.  To compound this, if the leaked email isn't fake, then it appears a lot of thought and research has gone into the microtransaction idea, which goes beyond brainstorming and seems particularly underhanded after telling the playerbase otherwise.  Which leads us back to the trust issue.

I think it's also worth remembering that yes, ok, the community and forums can devolve into shitflinging and trolling, negativity and angst very easily and it snowballs. But also that people genuinely love the game - they are invested, it's their hobby etc  And I think people do genuinely feel that if microtransactions came into the game 'for realz', beyond the stupid monocles, then it would be killing eve. I think both the community and ccp feel they want what's best for the game, but seem to have diametrically opposing views about what that is.

Ideally, it needs a) CCP to say that they were just throwing ideas around, and microtransactions will be limited to vanity items and not effect the gameworld, and this was always the intention or b) CCP to say that they were genuinely considering it, but on reflection and listening to player feedback, they do not feel it's the right direction for the game.

The suggestion (again, under the assumption the email is genuine) that it's better to see what the players do rather than listening to what they say is extremely unhelpful with regards to the relationship between CCP and the playerbase.

This is a useful link for understanding why certain people feel betrayed/angry/disillusioned/disappointed at this point:
http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html (particularly with regards to the leaked newsletter: "We had been lied to.")



(oh, and lol @ izzy. you're probably right.)

[Desiderya]

It's really a bit wonky.
So they want to look at what players do, and not what they say. That is actually right, since I know that trend from every MMO forum I've visited in the last 9 years. Something gets changed, there's an outrage. Players who dislike the changes are much, much more vocal about it than those who agree or simply don't bother. Add in all those bitter vets from the last big change that spelled the doom for [TheGame] and the party starts.
Then consider that only a fraction of the players is active in the forums.

But I still groaned when I read it like Hilmar stated it. We have to look at what the players do! Hey, 40 guys bought a Monocle in under two days! And that was more than the other clothes, which still is a rather disappointing number given their insane prices, too. That is so awesome, given EVE's tiny playerbase.


Anyhow, on the topic of the thing: It is widely blown out of proportions if you ask me. CCP has the diplomatic skill of a drunken monkey, but when you get to the facts it's rather vague and meaningless things we're talking about. You can buy a PLEX and sell it for tons of ISK to buy your shinies since years, that didn't change much. P2W is the wrong argument here. Player involvement and therefore avoid creating items out of thin air is a much more important topic. PLEX shows that they care about it, so I'm confident that they'll continue to do so.
Buying standings doesn't really impact the market. Of course you can argue that more people will think about grinding the Pirate LP stores, but look at the prices of CNR and CNS, for example, which come from easily accessible LP stores. It's still a lot of work to grind one and not like they'll magically drop the prices for a Machariel down to 200m.
If someone will spend $ to save time on grinding for his Highsec POS it's the same if he buys a PLEX to buy that CNR. Or a PLEX to buy some suitable character on the character bazaar.

Vanity items is much ISK or $ for useless crap, just to show what you got. It's an immensely unclever move to shell out only expensive stuff first, but there got the be useless things like that god damn monocle, if it's just to make fun of people who bought one.

I think it's just a vent for a long growing frustration about things. CQ isn't as bad and unnecessary as it's made, and neither doombringing is NEX, in all it's pointlessness. Seriously, does even one person here consider the sold clothes ... chic?

[Lyn Farel]

Well until now, small disagreements like content and tech escalation, farming despite the game being an UFO in terms of gameplay, all this put aside (except my PLEX issue), I was fully behind CCP, especially for Incarna. I have always been in awe before this game.

Now I am pretty much disgusted. So it is not only about bittervets and people that do not like changes. I love change.

Or maybe I am the only one.

[Akikio L]

My point really is that EVE is a commersial product and no one forces you to buy it. CCP are free to do whatever they want with EVE. A lot of EVE players seem to think they have some odd rights to decide about the product more than to buy it or not. People just prove how addicted they are when they just can't make a clean break but linger around for years after they quit the game (or so they say =P ) bittervetting and whining on forums.