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[Seriphyn]

Gallente-Minmatar relations were brought up a while ago, but in this round would like to focus more on the states of the Federation and Republic and their position on the cluster map, ensuring their survival and/or dominance. The socio-cultural relations vary greatly, with Federal Minmatar having split views on whether tribalism or democracy is the way forward, disagreements between "high culture" Gallenteans and "low culture" Minmatar, a strong bond between the FedNav and RepFleet (Exercise Brotherhood) etc. This is more in the idea of realpolitik, ignoring these aspects and focusing on pure pragmatism.

- The Federation and Republic occupy the west, east and central areas of the cluster, and share adjacent borders, allowing easy trade and immigration. They cut off the Caldari State and Amarr Empire (as well as the Khanid Kingdom), meaning that those two nations have to cut deals/treaties with the Minmatar/Gallente to permit transit through. Position of Republic and Federation is thus key to keeping the Amarr-Caldari bloc at bay. Danger of "two front war"

- From a Gallente perspective, the long-term threat of the Amarr Empire (not Caldari State), the other "world conquering" power alongside the Fed. Rival in achieving ultimate domination of the cluster (not through cultural means, military? Religious proliferation?) Importance of having Minmatar as ally against hated mutual enemy

- From Minmatar perspective, 1/5 of people are Federation citizens or expatriates. Cannot abandon, unable to break tie with Federation for this reason. Large portion of Federation military units of Minmatar origin (may have changed with Caldari Prime invasion?), intrinsic relation between Gallente and Minmatar militaries.

- Mutual desire to hinder/destroy Amarr Empire, utilize shared cultural values of anti-slavery, freedom and liberty. Joint support of freedom fighters. FIO operators incite slave rebellions on remote Amarr planets?

- From Gallente perspective, training the Minmatar military from tribal warriors to professional military as “buffer” against Amarr Empire to focus on short-term threat of Caldari State.

- Recognition of unrelenting Minmatar and Amarr causes. Caldari State ultimately reconcilable through trade, complex economic interests, market economy ideologies etc. Past desires to abandon war and cooperate “for the benefit of mankind” (Crielire). Amarr will never rest until galaxy conquered, Minmatar will never rest until Amarr destroyed. Amarr primary rival to establishing hegemony, thus Minmatar ally is preferable.

Things like this, at any rate. I didn't really cover the threats of the "rogue states" (ie. pirates), as all four are united under CONCORD when dealing with them.

[Alain Colcer]

They cut off the Caldari State and Amarr Empire (as well as the Khanid Kingdom), meaning that those two nations have to cut deals/treaties with the Minmatar/Gallente to permit transit through. Position of Republic and Federation is thus key to keeping the Amarr-Caldari bloc at bay. Danger of "two front war"

Not really, there is a direct jump line between Caldari and Amarr sovereign systems....

[orange]

New Caldari to Amarr

[Alain Colcer]

There was, long ago, a sort of event/storyarc that portrayed a new mutual cooperation agreement to stop illegal drug smuggling.

I was in Coreli at the time (before they went rogue) and we chose to roam the low-sec/high-sec borders.

[Silas Vitalia]

Looks good to me, except for the 'borders' thing. Remember you can go straight from Khanid Prime through to Amarr through to Jita without even touching any Matari or Gallente territory.

Don't forget as well the Federation was a major cause of the successful matari rebellion. They spent billions supplying, funding, and clandestinely supporting the revolt. IE they never would have succeeded without the huge support of the Federation.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I'm also really wondering if the current Caldari state can be considered a non "world conquering" power at the moment, especially in relationship to the Fed. Were we looking at the pre-Heth state I'd agree, but since the State got gimped by Hethism they've displayed not just a willingness to penatrate Gallente borders if they can, but an outright hatred and desire to destroy the Federation. I'd rate this as a major threat, albeit not neccesarily "world conquering".

As an aside, wondering how much cultural tensions would feed into national relations - i.e., would the Federation consider the Voluval ritual a remnant of a barbaric past, or an exotic ritual to be studied? Would the Republic be highly offended by (mis)use of Matari tattoos in the Federation, have a grudging toleration of it 'cause the Federation supports them, or be amused that a people could so totally mess up something so obvious to them?

[Lyn Farel]

I am... not sure if I fully agree. Maybe it is the view of some federals. Some other will cordially hate minmatar expatriates, and most of them are probably more directly impacted by the State threat than the Amarrian one.

But well, you have conservatives and stubborn patriots on all sides, craving for war and conquest (religious or not), be them gallente, caldari, amarr or minmatar, and the fact that everyone wants to destroy the Amarr Empire sounds a little exagerated to me. A lot of caldari conservatives crave to conquer the Federation, and a lot of minmatar crave to conquer the Amarr Empire. The war is not all about ideals. The war is also economical/greedy/territorial/political and all the usual reasons for a war to happen.

[Mizhara]

As an aside, wondering how much cultural tensions would feed into national relations - i.e., would the Federation consider the Voluval ritual a remnant of a barbaric past, or an exotic ritual to be studied? Would the Republic be highly offended by (mis)use of Matari tattoos in the Federation, have a grudging toleration of it 'cause the Federation supports them, or be amused that a people could so totally mess up something so obvious to them?

There's severe offense taken from people taking fairly serious matters like clanmarks, voluval marks, and other marks that have been earned through achievements or actions and using them as fashion accessories. Of course, there's a wide range of reactions, from the eyerolling at the silly children playing with mommy's make-up, to physical altercations as it's insulting to see some things adorning people who never earned them.

[Seriphyn]

I regard the Caldari State as a non-conquering entity (with Heth exception) as their ultimate goal isn't to establish everyone as Caldari, being that Caldari is tied directly to blood, heritage and tradition. Similarly, the Minmatar Republic aren't into that either. Caldari more into establishing trade and profits for self-benefit, establish corporate dominance for this goal, and establish military dominance for the protection of the State?

I would regard the Federation and Amarr Empire as the two "major power-projecting" empires, as their goals are both to establish hegemony. The Amarr Empire would do so via hard power means, ie. military conquest (or through the emancipation or salvation crusade, religious revolution). The Gallente Federation would do so via soft power, with the idea that if everyone is wearing Gallentean clothes, eating Gallentean food, and watching Gallentean movies then the flag that flies above their territory is irrelevant. I would argue that the term "Gallente" does not refer to the ethnic Gallente, that it could be Intaki or Mannar, as long as it isn't contradictory to the Federation as an entity.

Quafe Peace Theory!

As this talks about realpolitik, it is likely that both Roden and Shakor couldn't care less about what they would see as "low issues" of socio-cultural disagreements like in the areas of tattoos, as the "high issues" of defence & security come first.

(as an aside, I don't get the Gallente dislike of tattoos. The Republic was formed 100 years ago, the adults that would have disliked them would be dead, and the youth that loved them would be the adults of today. CCP and their incapability of acute decade-by-decade culture shifts, I suppose)

[GoGo Yubari]

There's severe offense taken from people taking fairly serious matters like clanmarks, voluval marks, and other marks that have been earned through achievements or actions and using them as fashion accessories. Of course, there's a wide range of reactions, from the eyerolling at the silly children playing with mommy's make-up, to physical altercations as it's insulting to see some things adorning people who never earned them.

I've suggested the same is happening with the Intaki*, but at least way back when I pushed that idea I was met with barely veiled hostility. Of course, there aren't so many Intaki customs that are known really. I've talked about Intaki yoga being reduced from a seriously respected spiritual practice into a dieting/fitness fad. Later on, CCP kind of validated this idea by saying the Gallente are leery about the Reborn practice, but discussion around this has been limited to that one example.

* Actually, it has probably gone A LOT farther with the intaki, considering they've been in the Federation for longer. Plus, no doubt some among the Intaki have prostituted their own cultural heritage to make some money. No doubt some Matari types would be doing the same.

(as an aside, I don't get the Gallente dislike of tattoos. The Republic was formed 100 years ago, the adults that would have disliked them would be dead, and the youth that loved them would be the adults of today. CCP and their incapability of acute decade-by-decade culture shifts, I suppose)

Hmm, what dislike of tattoos? They are a pretty integral chargen option for Gallete characters, so that would be a tad odd.

[Seriphyn]

Hmm, what dislike of tattoos? They are a pretty integral chargen option for Gallete characters, so that would be a tad odd.

Tattoo chronicle

The Gallente find the culture of tattoos somewhat barbaric and uncivilized, and early on tried to persuade their Minmatar neighbors to drop this old custom and embrace their future as a civilized nation. Their efforts to this end were initially met with polite denials and later with derision, but interestingly the Gallente youth now find the custom fascinating. Indeed, it is not uncommon to see young Gallente teenagers sporting tribal and gang motifs lifted from their Minmatar peers, symbols of whose true meaning they have little to no knowledge. This can evoke anything between high derision and outright hostility when those so inked encounter true Minmatar.

At the same time, there is a Mannar item that says how the Mannar influence Gallente fashion with elaborate face- and body-painting so I don't know WTF the issue is there. The Gallente are the second-most tattooing using faction behind the Minmatar. Self-expression and all.

[Victoria Stecker]

In the context of the chron in question (I think) it seemed that the gallente didn't have a problem with the tattoos themselves, but rather with the importance that the Matari place on them, particularly the V-something I don't recall the spelling of atm. The belief that some random bit of ink is any meaningful foretelling of your future likely sounds absurd to 'civilized' people, despite it's importance in matari culture.

So the issue isn't with the tattoo itself, but with the way matari culture treats them.

[Louella Dougans]

possibly Gallente disapproval is the whole thing to do with ink and scars and the custom amongst some of making a dramatic scene out of removing a tattoo, instead of having "nano-technological tattoos to change with fashion trends and cultural memes, which are far more sophisticated and civilised".

i.e. the Gallente say "a needle? how simply barbaric! why not use nanotechnology? then you can change tattoos whenever the next fashion season arrives!".

Or something.

[Seriphyn]

In the context of the chron in question (I think) it seemed that the gallente didn't have a problem with the tattoos themselves, but rather with the importance that the Matari place on them, particularly the V-something I don't recall the spelling of atm. The belief that some random bit of ink is any meaningful foretelling of your future likely sounds absurd to 'civilized' people, despite it's importance in matari culture.

So the issue isn't with the tattoo itself, but with the way matari culture treats them.

That actually sounds exactly right

[Mizhara]

Erm, most Matari do use Nanotats. The warpaint chronicle speaks of it.