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[Aria Jenneth]

You have intent and agreement, and it probably helps that they both went to the same school, the same university, and are Masons.

Hm. Yeah-- a bit workaday, compared to your average conspiracy theory.

Masons! Ah, now that's a fantastic example of an actual, real-life conspiracy. Seems way back when, being a mason was an amazingly profitable business based on exclusive knowledge. The thing is, the knowledge in question-- use of the old mason's tools, the ones you see on the masonic seal, is ridiculously easy. Anybody can do it.

The masonic order, therefore, was created in order to protect the masons' livelihoods. They established levels of initiation and such, complete with the robes and fancy hats, in order to protect a few genuine, simple secrets. And apparently they were largely successful. Very interesting.

[Saede Riordan]

And in this blogpost Fiona poses an idea that shouldn't seem as radical as it does

[Aria Jenneth]

Hm. Nikita, I'm not sure it's so much a matter of vengeance being "what we've been reduced to" as it being something that society, certainly American society, has never really risen above. We like to say that vengeance is a bad motive, but ultimately we admire those who seek and take it successfully.

... at least when their grievances are something we sympathize with. We thus tend to conflate vengeance and justice. One of the considerations that keeps the death penalty going in this country is the thought that, "If it had been my daughter that son of a bitch had raped and murdered, I'd want to cut his liver out and show it to him with my own two hands!"

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is alive and well in the U.S. of A.

[Saede Riordan]

Hm. Nikita, I'm not sure it's so much a matter of vengeance being "what we've been reduced to" as it being something that society, certainly American society, has never really risen above. We like to say that vengeance is a bad motive, but ultimately we admire those who seek and take it successfully.

... at least when their grievances are something we sympathize with. We thus tend to conflate vengeance and justice. One of the considerations that keeps the death penalty going in this country is the thought that, "If it had been my daughter that son of a bitch had raped and murdered, I'd want to cut his liver out and show it to him with my own two hands!"

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is alive and well in the U.S. of A.

It is, and its something we need to grow out of. We need to break the cycle of violence. Its not going to fall apart on its own, we have to really want to change.

[Invelious]

Hm. Nikita, I'm not sure it's so much a matter of vengeance being "what we've been reduced to" as it being something that society, certainly American society, has never really risen above. We like to say that vengeance is a bad motive, but ultimately we admire those who seek and take it successfully.

... at least when their grievances are something we sympathize with. We thus tend to conflate vengeance and justice. One of the considerations that keeps the death penalty going in this country is the thought that, "If it had been my daughter that son of a bitch had raped and murdered, I'd want to cut his liver out and show it to him with my own two hands!"

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is alive and well in the U.S. of A.

It is, and its something we need to grow out of. We need to break the cycle of violence. Its not going to fall apart on its own, we have to really want to change.

Not possible. Not with the level of complanency that western society is at.

[Casiella]

It's not just about complacency: for better or worse, the desire for vengeance is part of human nature and not something easily left behind, certainly not in just a generation or two.

[Laerise [PIE]]

The death of a human being, especially if he/she was assassinated or otherwise killed by someone else, should never be cause for celebration.

[Aria Jenneth]

The death of a human being, especially if he/she was assassinated or otherwise killed by someone else, should never be cause for celebration.

While I sympathize with this ideal, the death of a major enemy can be, well, cathartic (as it was for the U.S. in this case). Even with my own mixed feelings, I admit to a couple cups of glee being part of the recipe.

[Casiella]

I'm in no position to tell other people what to feel, especially those who have lost loved ones.

That goes for all sides, frankly.

[Dex_Kivuli]

The death of a human being, especially if he/she was assassinated or otherwise killed by someone else, should never be cause for celebration.

While I sympathize with this ideal, the death of a major enemy can be, well, cathartic (as it was for the U.S. in this case). Even with my own mixed feelings, I admit to a couple cups of glee being part of the recipe.

There are two general motivations for 'punishment': the retributive motivation; and the deterrent motivation. I think both are potentially valid.

Under the first category, a lot of people feel that justice has been done in bin Laden's death. They derive a lot of happiness from knowing he has been killed, as can be seen from the celebrations. Personally, I don't subscribe to this view, but I also feel that it's not my place to tell these people they are wrong. That's a value call.

The second category is much more valid. The leaders in situations like this are rarely placing their own necks on the line. They sit in their expansive Pakistani mansions and issue decrees from afar. They send young men to their deaths and risk others. They might be avid believers, but they don't face the disincentive associated with their actions.

This sends a very strong message to the selfish leaders: you are not safe. It may be expensive. It may take some time. But they'll find you.

Edit: fixing my terribad spelling

[Aria Jenneth]

The second category is much more valid. The leaders in situations like this are rarely placing their own necks on the line. They sit in their expansive Pakistani mansions and issue decrees from afar. They send young men to their deaths and risk others. They might be avid believers, but they don't face the disincentive associated with their actions.

This sends a very strong message to the selfish leaders: you are not safe. It may be expensive. It may take some time. But they'll find you.

This would be a nice little bonus.... If there were any solid evidence that human beings actually worked like that.

One of my favorite anecdotes about human behavior is from 19th Century England, a time at which pickpockets were hanged. Said hangings were great places for getting your pockets picked.

In general, anyone with the necessary ego to go and become a self-serving militant leader is not going to believe for a second that he (and it seems to almost always be a he) will ever be the one getting caught and shot. The more ego-driven segments of our own society do the same: "Oh, MY pet economic bubble isn't like all those other ones!"

It's nonsense, but it's nonsense we're apt to believe.

Often I think that it's not so much that we don't learn from history as that most of those who study it have a special eye for the bits that tell them it'll be different this time.

[Dex_Kivuli]

This would be a nice little bonus.... If there were any solid evidence that human beings actually worked like that.

I think people do respond to incentives, in particular the likelihood that they will get caught (and the consequences if they do). They just attach a very low probability to getting caught themselves, even if the consequences are dire.

This doesn't mean that there is zero deterrent effect... it just means that it's very small. Maybe if they never caught Osama there would be 100,000 bastards ready to step up, but maybe now there's only 99,999.

Just because pickpocketing was rife at hangings doesn't mean there was no deterrent effect. Rather, it's just that the deterrent effect was more than offset by the high potential payoff associated with the target rich environment.

[Jev North]

One of my favorite anecdotes about human behavior is from 19th Century England, a time at which pickpockets were hanged. Said hangings were great places for getting your pockets picked.

Vaguely related, one partial explanation I heard mentioned for the Golden Age of Piracy around that time was that criminal law was simply too harsh; if a man could get hung for stealing a bread, why shouldn't he try and steal a fortune instead? Mutiny was another capital crime, so if a crew ever rebelled at poor treatment -- and there was plenty of that to be had -- their only option left was to become outlaws.

[Saede Riordan]

The second category is much more valid. The leaders in situations like this are rarely placing their own necks on the line. They sit in their expansive Pakistani mansions and issue decrees from afar. They send young men to their deaths and risk others. They might be avid believers, but they don't face the disincentive associated with their actions.

This sends a very strong message to the selfish leaders: you are not safe. It may be expensive. It may take some time. But they'll find you.

This would be a nice little bonus.... If there were any solid evidence that human beings actually worked like that.

One of my favorite anecdotes about human behavior is from 19th Century England, a time at which pickpockets were hanged. Said hangings were great places for getting your pockets picked.

In general, anyone with the necessary ego to go and become a self-serving militant leader is not going to believe for a second that he (and it seems to almost always be a he) will ever be the one getting caught and shot. The more ego-driven segments of our own society do the same: "Oh, MY pet economic bubble isn't like all those other ones!"

It's nonsense, but it's nonsense we're apt to believe.

Often I think that it's not so much that we don't learn from history as that most of those who study it have a special eye for the bits that tell them it'll be different this time.

That's so true, sadly. Also, Aria, I am a bit in love with your brain.