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[Louella Dougans]

Game mechanics:

In the chronicles, there is one called "Prey Miner", about a pilot who attacks mining ships.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=feb01-03

In the old version, there were several references to tracking devices, you can read it on here:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/pdf/eve_v1.4_white.pdf

The current version, was edited as part of the fiction changes as stated here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1069891&page=1#3

Changed Chronicle “Prey Miner” to remove reference to nonexistent tracking device.

Now then, where don't tracking devices exist?
Answer: they don't exist ingame.

So, CCP changed a chronicle, because it had a pilot doing things that were not possible ingame.

So what does that tell you?


tracking devices are plausible in the EVE setting, however they do not exist ingame, (although a handful of tracking devices exist in some missions, they are operated solely by your agent, not you the pilot).

[Lyn Farel]

The PF said tracking devices exist, then I use them ICly (with all the usual limits about coherence, the very foundation of the RP). If they change it and remove it from PF (for whatever reason, this change seems weird), then I stop to use them. Or not, depending on a lot of factors, but I will rather use something else if the story needs it.

Not really my problem if some players abuse of it. We are not anymore in the context of the OP, but in the context of coherence and credibility of roleplay.

[Louella Dougans]

my point was, that CCP's editing of that and other chronicles is a clear message that pilots can pretty much only do what the game mechanics allow you to do.

So, when people talk about boarding actions, tracking devices, infiltrating things, hacking, spies, whatever, then they are skating on thin ice.

Anyone can call them on it and say "No, that's not possible" or "No, that didn't happen", and they'd be right.

Then there'd be an argument, and either people back down to what is possible ingame, or they stick to their position and are branded delusional.

[Casiella]

Changed Chronicle “Prey Miner” to remove reference to nonexistent tracking device.

Now then, where don't tracking devices exist?
Answer: they don't exist ingame.

So, CCP changed a chronicle, because it had a pilot doing things that were not possible ingame.

So what does that tell you?

tracking devices are plausible in the EVE setting, however they do not exist ingame, (although a handful of tracking devices exist in some missions, they are operated solely by your agent, not you the pilot).

I think it's a bit of a non sequitur to extrapolate from there and say "we can never ever use tracking devices". In my opinion, we could instead say "please don't godmode", but if Louella(c) had some reason to track down Iurnan and determined that she'd like to plant a tracking device on his computer when he docks in an Amarr station, I might be inclined to go along with it since I trust Louella(p) -- whereas not so much with random d00d in Rens local. He needs to buck up and either follow me in-space or use locator agents.

TL;DR: the removal of those things tells us that the mechanic doesn't exist. But we each have as much "power outside mechanics" as other players perceive us to have -- and that's going to vary between any two sets of players.

[Saede Riordan]

my point was, that CCP's editing of that and other chronicles is a clear message that pilots can pretty much only do what the game mechanics allow you to do.

So, when people talk about boarding actions, tracking devices, infiltrating things, hacking, spies, whatever, then they are skating on thin ice.

Anyone can call them on it and say "No, that's not possible" or "No, that didn't happen", and they'd be right.

Then there'd be an argument, and either people back down to what is possible ingame, or they stick to their position and are branded delusional.

which brings us to Ken's topic

[Louella Dougans]

Not really, no.

[Casiella]

Louella, what are you saying? Two or three words don't say much, and one can certainly see a plausible connection between this discussion and the larger question Ken raises.

[Rok-Yuni]

Since the chronicles are meant to spotlight aspects of the game or community, i suspect that their removal of the tracking device from this chronicle was due to them spotlighting PvP activities, and in an attempt to make the things that the pilot did while in his ship more plausible.

remember though, that every mission you take, you have supposedly travelled to the agent's office to sign the mission contract. cargo drones don't exist in game, nor do camera drones, but each ship contains some.

Also, during the incursion live events planetary conflicts were performed.

Personally, i believe there is no real problem with using a locator agent on an alt, or having someone else run them for you. 'friend of a friend' and all that.

since it is still in PF that tracking devices exist, even if only the agent uses it, i have no issue with their use, if they are not abused. With the agent example, it is reasonable to assume that the device sends the data back to the agent, instead of the capsuleer who turned up to run the mission, as the agent did not know which capsuleer would be arriving to run the mission.

[BloodBird]

This whole thread reminds me of Bloodbird and her amarrian colony in republic space. As long as it remains coherent, logical, structured, and with an OOC "gentlemen-agreement" behind, I do not se why I should screw with that.

First rule in roleplay : scenario before anything else, or no need to roleplay anymore, just play the game lile the average player.

For the record, I'm male. So is my oldest toon, though Jesmine is not.

Nit-picking aside, for this tread I'll share a bit of knowledge. I seriously don't think I'll ever get to the point where this is used IC or in any story of mine, anyhow.

Back when I were still writing out the basis for the story that my main toon was involved in, I involved several other players, among them Veron Daerth and Stitcher. The idea was originally to make an in-universe story to explain why my toon was gone for several months leading up to this point. Ofc, I could just have stated he was on a break, much like I was, but it was an excuse to write a story, and I took it.

Long story short, Veron and Stitcher both made wonderful pieces of the story, actually a chapter each, to describe their help towards my toon in this situation. I would write the rest and it would tie their contributions in with the overall plot.

All of this is gone and lost a long time ago now ofc, but at the time there were two things that defined my work from the viewpoint of our collaboration as players; the story would be believable from an IC, PF viewpoint and it would take part nearly entirely outside the confines of the game. Lots of actions on planets and other non-space locations. A few acts took place in space, mostly with myself, simply being at places I was supposed to be in relation to the story. There were none around who saw me in these places, but the idea was that, if they were and read my story later, they might recall seeing me there and go 'aah, so that's what he was doing there.' In-game action to back purely fictional action. Was not much else I could do, In-game.

Now, this story would also demand from the reader to accept that Capsuleers came from some other place originally, they were not born into their capsules in some beginner-station somewhere with a less-than-a-day record in their beginner school, and no places of origin or any parents etc.

Nearly everyone who call themselves role-players are forced to agree that all our toons have 'lives' and back stories besides our purely in-game activities. I for one will refuse to call anyone a 'role-player' who refuse to acknowledge that my toon was born and raised, SOMEWHERE by SOMEONE. And when I tell anyone IC about who they are/where where they lived etc, there is a very high chance they will believe me.

Granting that another toon was born by someone and came from somewhere, is not to hard to swallow or agree to. Few of us however, will give much if any credit to anyone claiming to be the Empress' genetic twin. This ties in with credibility of one's RP and stories; what is believable and plausible, and what is not.

I took great pains to ensure that my story, while somewhat 'hero tale' type, would be believable to any, if not all, readers. It even included a hopefully-credible solution to how one escapes CONCORD supervision to do things they would never allow an egger to do normally. My toon's 'suicide by ship self-destruct' was another 'IG' action based on this story-arc.

Right now, I am in fact selfish enough to wish I still had that work and could post a link here, I think it would have covered the issue at hand, quite well, though quite a lot of reading. Basically, I see no reason what-so-ever that Capsuleers and their closest friends/associates etc. can't have some degree of 'special' to them or some amount of power.

If Andreus ever told my toon IC his back-ground story, I would see no reason to doubt his words. Sure, it might actually come a day when CCP release a huge, thick, bible-like book about who, what, when, how, where etc. in New Eden, and it might even state perfectly that all of Intaki is ruled by purple brain-slugs, thus spectacularly destroying his explanation and claims about his family's dealings there.

Ofc, we all likely know this will never happen. And I'm not one for denying myself or anyone else creative freedom in a game THEY PAY A MONTHLY FEE to enjoy, the right to make up fluff as they go, just because CCP 'might' one day do something that will invalidate that. But of course, it's not really to much to ask that it's kept believable enough not to rub everyone else the wrong way.

Basically, if it's fluff that adds flavor to your toon without rubbing other toons in ways that is not, in lack of other words, polite, then I see little problem. If your quest to add fluff to your toon or explain actions or some such taken by your toons, screws another toon over or seriously breaks immersion, that's another factor. Sadly, these vary greatly.

[Invelious]

since it is still in PF that tracking devices exist, even if only the agent uses it, i have no issue with their use, if they are not abused. With the agent example, it is reasonable to assume that the device sends the data back to the agent, instead of the capsuleer who turned up to run the mission, as the agent did not know which capsuleer would be arriving to run the mission.

How does a locator agent preemptively have a tracking device on your target? Or did I miss something in that paragraph.

[Louella Dougans]

Louella, what are you saying? Two or three words don't say much, and one can certainly see a plausible connection between this discussion and the larger question Ken raises.

Ken's thread is about how players visualise things.

This is about OOC agreement as to characters having power to do things.


CCP have said that what you see in game is what pilots can do.

If you want to do more than that, then everyone concerned has to agree to it. Otherwise, it goes nowhere.



Also, the tracking devices that exist that agents use to help players do missions, only work on npc ships.
"One of our people installed a device on the enemy ship" or whatever.

[Casiella]

FWIW, The Burning Life notes that pilots rarely go see agents in person, but the IG text disagrees. From my PoV, players can handle this either way and I won't raise a fuss.

And Louella, I'd love to see a post or something where CCP mentions that in detail because then I can pester that dev. Do you remember who said that what you see in game is what pilots can do?

[Lyn Farel]

CCP have said that what you see in game is what pilots can do.

If you want to do more than that, then everyone concerned has to agree to it. Otherwise, it goes nowhere.

Oh yes, definitly, especially when the thing is sensible enough to raise questions or when it touches another/other character(s) RP.

But I am definitly not going to ask the permission to every roleplayer for my character to go see my mother, or to validate if her father was a holder or a commoner. I will, though, if the mother or the father in question is another player, for example.

[Vieve]

FWIW, The Burning Life notes that pilots rarely go see agents in person, but the IG text disagrees. From my PoV, players can handle this either way and I won't raise a fuss.

Agreed.   I've tended to follow the personal rule of 'the better the relationship with an agent and/or the higher the agent level, the more likely there'll be an in person meeting'.

[Graanvlokkie]

* Graanvlokkie reads the OP again.

Comment related to the OP.

It is stated that the toon is an RP toon, and has no skill point training, but the toon is a RP hacker ... a hacker with no skill points in hacking? Is it not like making a new toon and saying it it a titan pilot who is admired in New Eden for his exploits?

There are mechanics regulating all of this, piloting, hacking AND locating people. Personally I feel if something is specifically regulated by the mechanics, thats the way it should be done.

You cant RP that ypur POS took months to deploy, when the mechanics say it wasnt?