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[GoGo Yubari]

You know, I'm going to disagree with anti-piracy being unsupported and generally unfeasible. We did this for a while in PAK and we were pretty successful at it. By successful, I don't just mean that we blew up lots of pirates, but that it kept us amused and there was a never-ending stream of targets.

While there are no game mechanics to directly incentivice anti-piracy beyond the somewhat iffy and sometimes hard to collect ransom payments, I'm actually going to say that anti-piracy is mechanically supported. The sentry and outlaw mechanics do it. Where outlaws are unable to use frigates at gates, the anti-pirate is mostly free to do so. That's just an example.

Low sec is filled to the brims with outlaw pirates. Pirates are better quarry than non-combatants as well, because where a non-combatant will dock and totally clam up, the pirate will at least be wanting to get out to blow shit up. You can use that want to your advantage.. and these guys are very prone to well executed baiting.

In the cases where the pirates in question are not outlaws, you will suffer the occasional security hit. This is not necessarily the doomsday scenario it is often made out to be. For one thing it just means that sometimes you'll have to contend with the sentry mechanics being against you - which is only just fair, really.

Where security hits are a sign of CONCORD not approving, the wholly outlaw pirate is easily recognized to be a bad guy outside of the law. Anti-pirates or bounty hunters are sketchy people, too. While they are sometimes working out of noble intentions, all of them work on the boundaries of the law. Some of them are just greedy bastards. The fact that they get the occasional security hit is nicely indicative of this. Importantly, it's not like fixing your sec status is a big problem (and it makes you money, too).

I'm just saying, anti-piracy is not somehow impossible in the game. A dedicated anti-pirate corp is something of a white whale for me and one day, I may catch that greasy bastard. The biggest problem is selling it to people as a valid lifestyle because of this persistent perception of it being somehow anathema.

[Milo Caman]

I'm just saying, anti-piracy is not somehow impossible in the game. A dedicated anti-pirate corp is something of a white whale for me and one day, I may catch that greasy bastard. The biggest problem is selling it to people as a valid lifestyle because of this persistent perception of it being somehow anathema.

One of the big Issues I've seen with dedicated Anti-Pirate corporations is that whilst they have good goals, their members or FCs (Or both) Consist of complete and utter idiots.
Whilst I've seen some really good anti-piracy work done (EM, Etc.), the stereotype is your 2 year old player who still fits lasers to his CNR, and has more ISK than sense.

Breaking this schema is one of the many issues Vigilante groups face setting up.

[BloodBird]

EVE IS DYING!!!

No seriously... DYING!

...

*RAGEING AND INSULTS*

Here's another truism of Eve: HTFU or GTFO.

Repeat after me, Miz;

Miss-constructing the arguments or claims of another is bad form.

Insulting another player is bad.

Use of overly memetic acronyms is unoriginal and silly.

And with that out of the way, let me point out a few things;

Firstly, I never stated or claimed that EVE is dying, nor did I bitch about the game in general. I pointed out that one of the games many features are not performing to desired standards because to be an anti-pirate currently means making a choice; skimping on effectiveness by ignoring people you know to be helping pirates until they actively do - something that is usually going to get you a lost battle - or, accepting a sec-hit and the fact your basically playing piracy-lite.

It can be done. Anti-pirates all over EVE prove this daily. But such a way should not need exist, when it could be possible to alter the system to be more useful to all involved.

Secondly, it should not be a demand that I, and anyone else who may be feeling like me, should just accept that the system is flawed and stop caring, either quitting or 'living with it', when the perfectly acceptable option of - try to improve the system – exists.

As mentioned the only 'fix' I can see right now that might remove MOST (note: not all) of the exploitable conditions surrounding piracy would be to introduce a total re-organization of the way the system works. Realistically, this will not happen, so we will be forced to think of minor changes that might improve on things without making major game-adjustments that are never going to happen anyhow.

And so I'm simply going to ask: Does anyone have any ideas to share? Anything you think might help make the game a more interesting place for pirates and anyone who might want to 'deal' with them, without re-working the entire sec-rating/High-Low space mechanics? There is another tread by Aria Jenneth that deals with any possible bounty-revamp, so let's keep it to that tread, and deal with anything else, here.

[Matariki Rain]

I'm still not clear what it is that's seen as a problem here.

Anti-piracy work tends to be expensive and hell on your sec status.

So?

[BloodBird]

I'm still not clear what it is that's seen as a problem here.

Anti-piracy work tends to be expensive and hell on your sec status.

So?

In the real world, criminals are faced with several consequenses for being branded a 'criminal' to begin with, and one of these is to be a target for the police, enforcing law and order for everyone's good.

In EVE-online, if you are a Capsuleer, your nearly totally immune to any lasting retaliation due CONCORD, and anyone who wish to 'enforce' law and order, let alone any feelable consequences for commiting crimes, will soon end up looking like a criminal himself, and thus be shunned by the 'police' on equal footing with any other 'criminal'.

This is a problem, because it makes consequences for 'crimes' lacking, thus making distinctions like 'pirates' or 'law enforcers' nearly meaningless. I think it would be alot more fun for everyone if the notion 'pirate' actually had a cost and one of those would be an 'opposite' force to oppose them in any meaningfull way.

[Casiella]

Doesn't the security status mechanic at least attempt to deal with that?

[Matariki Rain]

Doesn't the security status mechanic at least attempt to deal with that?

Maybe once upon a time, when it was cool for pirates to go outlaw. The modern pirate has holding companies, cosy lunches with important people, and a nice home in the lower-sec reaches of high-sec space.

[Casiella]

I don't think I follow. Can't you shoot at folks below -5 without penalty or gate guns?

[Matariki Rain]

I don't think I follow. Can't you shoot at folks below -5 without penalty or gate guns?

You can shoot at outlaws without penalty, yes. The set of of "outlaws" is not the same as the set of "pirates", however.

[Casiella]

True: I've long thought of highsec griefers (gankers, ninjas, etc.) as the real "pirates" of the game.

[Ulphus]

True: I've long thought of highsec griefers (gankers, ninjas, etc.) as the real "pirates" of the game.

I think Matariki is referring to the lowsec pirates who specifically try to keep their sec status above -5 so that they can choose whether to engage or not, or have gate-guns on their side. If you're chasing people with sec status below -5, you can use small tackling ships without fear of gate-guns. Above -5, not so much.

The other thing they do is when we do manage to ambush a known pirate, they don't shoot back when they know it's hopeless, and they get kill rights (if they're above -5 I think). This means they can wait until their alt finds you missioning to get your sec-status back up, and come and gank the anti-pirates in highsec!

There are good reasons for them to do it, if they can restrain their urge to pod people.

[Matariki Rain]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Ulf is correct.

[Mizhara]

Werdz

Did I even once mention you? The post was a generalized reply to some of the other replies in this thread. Should probably start cherrypicking quotes before I write up replies, but the point I made still stands.

There's absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the system as it is.

If you're anti-pirate and frustrated that you may have to adjust your RoE in order to hit the ones playing the security system, then welcome to the world of law enforcement all over the world. There's always been criminals that are good at making the law work for them instead of against them, and there's always been the very same 'moral' issue at play. Is it okay to bend the law if it means you can remove a criminal that's just too good at playing the system?

I think it's perfect as it is. Pirates need to be able to do their thing and still play the system so they appear like a shining diamond, and anti-pirates definitely need to have their own challenges. Pirates that aren't flashy have worked for it and deserve it. Anti-pirates being flashy is just another sign of New Eden's capsuleer control mechanisms being corrupted and inefficient which CONCORD has proven to be time and time again... and it's perfectly fitting the universe.

There's always ways to achieve what you want... adjust your RoE and the non-flashies are valid targets all of a sudden. Well... if you're willing to face the fact that you need to work to keep your own sec rating up.

Your enemies playing the system? Play it right back and I can guarantee you that you'll have far more fun than trying to change the system itself. No reason to anyway, the system's fine as it is.

[GoGo Yubari]

There's absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the system as it is.

If you're anti-pirate and frustrated that you may have to adjust your RoE in order to hit the ones playing the security system, then welcome to the world of law enforcement all over the world. There's always been criminals that are good at making the law work for them instead of against them, and there's always been the very same 'moral' issue at play. Is it okay to bend the law if it means you can remove a criminal that's just too good at playing the system?

I think it's perfect as it is. Pirates need to be able to do their thing and still play the system so they appear like a shining diamond, and anti-pirates definitely need to have their own challenges. Pirates that aren't flashy have worked for it and deserve it. Anti-pirates being flashy is just another sign of New Eden's capsuleer control mechanisms being corrupted and inefficient which CONCORD has proven to be time and time again... and it's perfectly fitting the universe.

There's always ways to achieve what you want... adjust your RoE and the non-flashies are valid targets all of a sudden. Well... if you're willing to face the fact that you need to work to keep your own sec rating up.

Your enemies playing the system? Play it right back and I can guarantee you that you'll have far more fun than trying to change the system itself. No reason to anyway, the system's fine as it is.

Yeah. Hell yeah. Very well written.

I wouldn't say the system is perfect though, but it does indeed what I've bolded from your post very well. Sure, it's gamey and gimmicky, but it is a game after all. It actually really brings out the thematic qualities of being a bounty hunter or anti-pirate. If that kinda dynamic isn't interesting to someone, maybe role-playing that part in the game isn't that one's cup of tea.

Also, on the practical level, for pirate corps that have lots of non outlaw members, you still have war decs as an option when dipping into illegalities (ie. shooting non outlaws) would end up being too costly. But I like the fact a bounty hunter will have to occasionally bend the law to catch the criminal. That's what makes it perfect.

Indeed, it opens up options for these kinds of groups. Consider a carebear corp that's in trouble from just such sec status games playin' pirates. They're carebears and deathly afraid of the sec hits. They call out the anti-pirates who they know will do the job, irregardless of the fact that it will get their hands dirty. The bad ass, sketchy bounty hunters roll into town and so it goes. Great stuff in my book.

[Casiella]

I assume they still do this, but EM used to have anti-pirate campaigns in which they'd declare war on somebody that they decided presented a threat to the Republic. That gets around the issues with flashiness quite nicely.

Basically, as I see it, the system could use some tweaks or enhancements, but the underlying structure doesn't need a wholesale revamp.