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Author Topic: What's this?  (Read 5171 times)

Seriphyn

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What's this?
« on: 16 Feb 2011, 16:44 »

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1468912&page=1#3

Eh...how can people RP together if we consistently discredit the claims of others, ad hominem etc etc?
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Saxon Hawke

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Feb 2011, 16:59 »

The simple fact of the matter is there are two groups of roleplayers in Eve and they can't really play together.

The first group waits patiently for CCP to dole out any crumb of information, which they collect and debate at length trying to make some a tapestry from the tiniest scraps.

The second group takes those same scraps and supplies the remainder of the fabric from their own imagination.

Because the first group chooses to reject anything that doesn't have the official CCP stamp and the second group (of which I and many of my friends are members) refuse to be limited by such restrictions, there is only a small area where the two can come together.
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Milo Caman

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #2 on: 16 Feb 2011, 17:18 »

As evidenced by various posts in ANN/IRED/AI/ILF Conflict threads, this happens, and the only ways to avoid people doing this kind of thing are:

a) Do something vindictive ingame that shuts them up
b) Back up every statement you make with some form of evidence
c) Dismiss it and carry on with your life
d) All of the above

Given previous experience, I presently roll with option D. As Saxon says, there's really very little you can do to remedy it otherwise.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #3 on: 16 Feb 2011, 17:27 »

Is it really so perplexing that Federation and State pilots attempt to discredit each other over a matter that paints one or the other in a negative light? CCP won't divulge every detail, because that isn't how news is spread. If we had 100% accuracy on every Scope release, guaranteed, the story might be different.

What would the alternative theoretical example be? It's discovered through SSC records that the State makes more humanitarian efforts than the Federation does in a given region, and the Federation pilots go "Yeah, that sounds right."

Thats just not how it works, champ. vOv
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BloodBird

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #4 on: 16 Feb 2011, 17:35 »

The simple fact of the matter is there are two groups of roleplayers in Eve and they can't really play together.

The first group waits patiently for CCP to dole out any crumb of information, which they collect and debate at length trying to make some a tapestry from the tiniest scraps.

The second group takes those same scraps and supplies the remainder of the fabric from their own imagination.

Because the first group chooses to reject anything that doesn't have the official CCP stamp and the second group (of which I and many of my friends are members) refuse to be limited by such restrictions, there is only a small area where the two can come together.


And this is the gist of it. Pretty much my issue too. I refuse to be limited by what CCP declares as canon, not-canon, and I won't stand for anyone who does that to me either. Not that I've done much of that IG lately, but that's that.

I noticed the incident in question, and... well, yeah I agree with Saxon on this. Entierly.
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BloodBird

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Feb 2011, 17:39 »

Is it really so perplexing that Federation and State pilots attempt to discredit each other over a matter that paints one or the other in a negative light? CCP won't divulge every detail, because that isn't how news is spread. If we had 100% accuracy on every Scope release, guaranteed, the story might be different.

What would the alternative theoretical example be? It's discovered through SSC records that the State makes more humanitarian efforts than the Federation does in a given region, and the Federation pilots go "Yeah, that sounds right."

Thats just not how it works, champ. vOv

Poor example - if it's backed up that it actaully is the case, then yeah, they will have to roll with it. Part of RP is the ability to realize your chocen opponents are not 100% evil and incompetent, and frankly I'm starting to get really tired of the basic reply of "NO you can't possibly be doign something NICE or usefull because I hate you and your evil."

Personal assaults based on faction loyaltty, regardless of actions or words, is pretty damn common. Characters are unwilling or unable to realize that there may be something redeeming about their opponents. Quite boring, tbh.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Feb 2011, 18:02 »

How is my example any different from any other Scope article?

This one claims Caldari did something beneficial, someone below says they probably did it for money, and the person after that seems to have questioned the credibility of the report.

If the article I theorized was produced, I imagine the person below would say they probably did it for money, and the person after that would question the credibility of the report.

From what I've seen so far, the kneejerk reaction of any factional loyalist is to say "that never happened." Regardless of factual evidence of any degree.
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Seriphyn

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #7 on: 16 Feb 2011, 18:32 »

TBH, I thought the article was believable and made sense, it's something that likely would have happened. I don't think the State would just have let the system sit in ruin. It's bad for profits. Federation may have gone "Eh, local authorities problem, need to save moneys" or whatever.

Instead, because of the one mention of "Caldari Navy carrying out offensive operations in the Federation", the 2nd reply decides to focus on an ad hominem attack on the OP. It's pretty well clear that the factional navies are involved in FW, and it was the Caldari Navy that occupied Placid et al back in 2009 etc. The rest of the article is ignored.

And considering that Aicar's articles before were all quite anti-Caldari, thought it would have been redeeming somewhat. Meanwhile, the other faux-Scope articles by Aicar are completely ignored by the "This never happened" brigade.

In fact, with the other ones, people have decided to play along. I guess it's because Abraxas has stated that there will be no more roleplayed news items, so we'll have to rely on these faux-Scope posts and ANN.
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Milo Caman

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #8 on: 16 Feb 2011, 18:50 »

I guess it's because Abraxas has stated that there will be no more roleplayed news items

Wat
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Seriphyn

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #9 on: 16 Feb 2011, 18:54 »

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=825

Quote
Aside from dev support we've made the decision to take Mercury (our volunteer fiction corp) off roleplayed news for the meantime, and they are now supporting this effort as well.

Why Aicar has appeared and posting around these articles.
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orange

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #10 on: 16 Feb 2011, 22:40 »

Instead, because of the one mention of "Caldari Navy carrying out offensive operations in the Federation", the 2nd reply decides to focus on an ad hominem attack on the OP.

...

And considering that Aicar's articles before were all quite anti-Caldari, thought it would have been redeeming somewhat.

A State-aligned character is attacking what he sees as the Federation-aligned Scope character's inaccurate and slanted reporting.

Also, I am not sure you understand what ad hominem means.  The character Hamish questioned the facts of the article.  He didn't say "Aicar is a slimmy Gallente scum sucker and therefore this article is wrong."  He instead stated his world view, which is in conflict with parts of the article.

It's pretty well clear that the factional navies are involved in FW, and it was the Caldari Navy that occupied Placid et al back in 2009 etc. The rest of the article is ignored.
Except that we disagree OOC on whether or not it is the Caldari Navy, State Protectorate, or various State PMCs.  This has been discussed at length and those of us who argue the NPCs present in FW are not by an large Caldari Navy have been ignored.

Quote from: Saxon Hawke
The first group waits patiently for CCP to dole out any crumb of information, which they collect and debate at length trying to make some a tapestry from the tiniest scraps.

The second group takes those same scraps and supplies the remainder of the fabric from their own imagination.
Players choose which based on whether it supports their preferred version of the universe.  The groups are by no means fixed.

See the below/above example.

Some players take various scraps of information (FW, Caldari military background articles), piece together a few linking credible hooks not provided by CCP (CONCORD mandated empire issued ID/Tags), and present what they feel is a more interesting situation/story (State forces are inherently mixed and the Caldari Navy isn't the primary occupier in FW).

But that is rejected by others because where is the CCP generated background for the middle part?
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Rodj Blake

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Feb 2011, 03:34 »

The problem is that somebody is reporting "news" when that news hasn't actually happened.

There's lots of stuff going on in Eve, so if you want to be a reporter go and report on it rather than making stuff up.

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Borza

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #12 on: 17 Feb 2011, 04:26 »

The problem is that somebody is reporting "news" when that news hasn't actually happened.

There's lots of stuff going on in Eve, so if you want to be a reporter go and report on it rather than making stuff up.


This.

And if you have to make up news about the NPC corps don't throw in off-hand comments that negate all your credibility by borderline god-modding.
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Milo Caman

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #13 on: 17 Feb 2011, 05:44 »

Quote
Aside from dev support we've made the decision to take Mercury (our volunteer fiction corp) off roleplayed news for the meantime, and they are now supporting this effort as well.

So ANN doesn't really have any competition? Interesting.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: What's this?
« Reply #14 on: 17 Feb 2011, 09:45 »

TBH, I thought the article was believable and made sense, it's something that likely would have happened. I don't think the State would just have let the system sit in ruin. It's bad for profits. Federation may have gone "Eh, local authorities problem, need to save moneys" or whatever.

Instead, because of the one mention of "Caldari Navy carrying out offensive operations in the Federation", the 2nd reply decides to focus on an ad hominem attack on the OP. It's pretty well clear that the factional navies are involved in FW, and it was the Caldari Navy that occupied Placid et al back in 2009 etc. The rest of the article is ignored.

And considering that Aicar's articles before were all quite anti-Caldari, thought it would have been redeeming somewhat. Meanwhile, the other faux-Scope articles by Aicar are completely ignored by the "This never happened" brigade.

In fact, with the other ones, people have decided to play along. I guess it's because Abraxas has stated that there will be no more roleplayed news items, so we'll have to rely on these faux-Scope posts and ANN.

First off, it's pretty well clear that Factional Navies are not involved in faction warfare and it was not the Caldari Navy that occupied Placid.     The whole premise behind FW is that CONCORD will unleash their wrath against the first empire that sends it's real Navy into the warzone.  This will leave them, and CONCORD, too weak to protect themselves against the retaliation of the Empire they attacked.  

This isn’t, as Saxon suggests, that this is a case me being upset because he’s RPing stuff that isn’t directly supported by PF.     I think  you are missing the subtle battle going on between our characters.  He isn’t playing a reporter trying to report unbiased news, and I’m just bullying him and nit-picking over PF.  He’s playing a member of the Dove party using the media as weapon against the Caldari and I’m a member of the old school patriot faction who is keenly aware of how his sort fight.

The character Aicar’s sole agenda is to convince people that the Caldari Navy is leading the offensive in Placid and that it’s having a negative effect on the Intaki locals.  In order to get this message out, his tactic is to encapsulate this message inside larger articles.    He recently started using ‘positive’  reports on the Caldari as a Trojan horse for his message.     The important part to Aicar, and to my character is the CN in placid message.      

The more often he can sneak this into a more sensationalist topic, the more people accept that it’s the truth.  The more people accept it as fact, the more people view the Caldari as a monolithic entity possessing all the worst traits of the Provist faction and oppressive corporate culture.  This leaves only the Federation there to protect the Intaki from these terrible people.

Hamish is part Intaki, and views the Federation as oppressing them and that the sort of thing Aicar is doing as one of the tools they do use to keep the Intaki under their thumb.  He isn't going to let Aicar get away attacking the State and Intaki Independence movement just because he says something on that the surface appears to be positive for the Caldari.

If you don't like the way I RP, that's fine, but coming here and trying to convince every body my RP is wrong and I'm being a jerk isn't going to stop me for doing what I want.
« Last Edit: 17 Feb 2011, 13:36 by Hamish Grayson »
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