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Author Topic: Amarrian religion and Christianity?  (Read 7918 times)

Casiella

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Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« on: 17 Jan 2011, 16:51 »

My RP background revolves almost entirely around the Minmatar and their (almost said "our") sphere of influence. My characters to date have rarely had much reason to care about the nuances of Amarrian belief, generally being either entirely atheistic or avoiding the subject entirely.

So I'm curious: in the Amarrian RP circles, how close of a connection do people draw between Amarrian religion and RL beliefs? I'm wondering specifically about Christianity. Now while I understand that 20k years have passed and thus we should see far more change and evolution in than we've even seen between Abraham and (say) Pope Pius XVI, my thought is that one could possible detect some core of what we today know as the Gospels in the most ancient Amarrian texts.

Alternately, I'd postulate that somewhere in the cluster is a (heretical?) sect that holds to some beliefs that tie back to themes we'd at least recognize, even if not necessarily identical. Along those lines, how would you advise someone interested in creating a small offshoot that accepts at least some of the Amarrian holy writ mixed together with other prophets and writings?

Please be gentle...  :oops:

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Valdezi

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #1 on: 17 Jan 2011, 17:11 »

I think it would be awesome.

I have a Khanid character that I am trying to explore that kind of thing with - making modern Christian references in her speech, focusing on the 'God is Love' aspect of Christianity.

If you make the character, we should do business.
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hellgremlin

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #2 on: 17 Jan 2011, 17:13 »

Have you ever wondered just where the Blood Raiders got their blood fetish? Most people dismiss them as emo space vampire wannabes. I have another theory.

In the Christian faith, during the Eucharist, or holy communion, which symbolic substances are consumed?  :twisted:
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Casiella

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #3 on: 17 Jan 2011, 18:36 »

Mammal, I will definitely be in touch with you.

And yes, Istvaan, those thoughts have occurred to me as well. The symbolic "cannibalism" in Christianity and the ensuing controversies date back at least to John 6. I think this is at least partly referenced in the martyrdom of Abel Jarek, too.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #4 on: 17 Jan 2011, 20:29 »

My RP background revolves almost entirely around the Minmatar and their (almost said "our") sphere of influence. My characters to date have rarely had much reason to care about the nuances of Amarrian belief, generally being either entirely atheistic or avoiding the subject entirely.

So I'm curious: in the Amarrian RP circles, how close of a connection do people draw between Amarrian religion and RL beliefs? I'm wondering specifically about Christianity. Now while I understand that 20k years have passed and thus we should see far more change and evolution in than we've even seen between Abraham and (say) Pope Pius XVI, my thought is that one could possible detect some core of what we today know as the Gospels in the most ancient Amarrian texts.

Alternately, I'd postulate that somewhere in the cluster is a (heretical?) sect that holds to some beliefs that tie back to themes we'd at least recognize, even if not necessarily identical. Along those lines, how would you advise someone interested in creating a small offshoot that accepts at least some of the Amarrian holy writ mixed together with other prophets and writings?

Please be gentle...  :oops:

I am not going to be gentle here.

People mixing amarr RP beliefs with their own belief systems (most popular are bible belt christianity, roman catholicism and islam) does not fit the bill, really.

First of all you should devote a few hours to study the scriptures listed in the PIE scribptures/PF thread on the stories forum - and also another few hours to the study of the scripture collection on the evelopedia.

The amarrian God certainly is a vengeful figure, and compared to modern christianity with a definite messiah there does not seem to be a clear messianic figurehead for the amarrian faith - except possible the current and past emperors.

There is already overflowing abundance on happy-flower-peace amarrian sub-sects in the RP community- and much like the sole "slavery" focused RP of some minmatar player it does get old pretty quickly.

If you really want to play as an amarr (or as a member of the amarrian mainstream faith) you should devote some time to get in the whole mindset of it all.
First of all to consider is the racial segregation and what it means for your character. Where does he/she stand, what are her/his view's on his/her position in society etc.  Once you have passed that stage you have to decide if you are secularistic, pragmatic or zealous/faithful - is religion simply a matter of upbringing for you, or do you fervently pray when you are in need of guidance, rather than just doing it by habit.

I just ask one thing.

Please, do not use direct bible quotes and call them scripture - especially the new testament is in most parts much too "friendly and optimistic".

Lae'

P.S.: If you are really serious about all this, hit me up ingame and we can have a more in depth discussion - maybe I can even point you to some other people too, once we've worked out what you are really looking for.
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Casiella

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #5 on: 17 Jan 2011, 22:00 »

I wouldn't dream of actually just passing off the Sermon on the Mount as well-known Amarrian scripture. That just seems wrong on so many levels. And I would love a link to the scriptures you mention.

So I'm thinking of two things, actually. One is to better understand an aspect of the EVE universe which, to date, I don't. (This encompasses far more than Amarrian religion, but it's a start.)

The other is to find a hook, if you will, for a project I've mulled for a very long time, leveraging the sandbox in a direction I've not previously gone and which I feel is underexplored. Religion is not the primary motivator here (IC or OOC), though a strong dose of ethics and spirituality certainly does come into play.
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Mithfindel

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jan 2011, 03:39 »

I do remember some people who tried to explain how Orthodox Amarr faith and Christianity were compatible, but to be quite honest, they were nuts. Some really strange cosmetically-still-Christian Prosperity Theology cults might get close, though, but - while I like to present myself as a tolerant person - the "they were nuts" part would still be valid.

Looking at missions, there is a hideous sect called the Flame of Peace, which has terrible cannibalistic rituals. When the capsuleer sent by the agent confronts them, they explain the rituals as purely symbolistic. Of course, at that point their ships and structures are pretty much already locked up.

In addition, there's likely hundreds of sects that may resemble some real-world religion in the Empire. If they get vocal, they get stamped down by the authorities as dangerous heretics.

The following is my opinion how the Amarr faith might have been born:

The Messiah of Amarr would likely be Prophet Dano Gheinok (Gheinok the First). Prophet Gheinok guided the Amarr away from the sins of the old world (Adam is you wish) into EVE. The planet Athra is Heaven. Since the Amarr are God's chosen, Athra is their birthright, and since they are on Athra (Heaven), then clearly they are God's chosen. Prophet Gheinok established their community and faith, which may be poetically referenced as the Kingdom of Heaven. Or Kingdom of God, which suites you better. Gheinok was likely very long-lived - it might be that the Amarr had still access to Terran-level technology long enough that the first-generation elite on Athra long enough to be considered mythical, even by the current tech level. This might be the origin of Amarr belief in "divine implants".

Also, all of this has been long clouded by the Dark Age. Tradition has still preserved the key points of faith, modified by the successive Emperors. A major ret-con for the Amarr would be needed to explain why there's still evil in Paradise, something that would eventually birth the Empire and the post of the Emperor - specially when we remember Amash-Akura, the first Emperor who was delivered the crown and the scepter (advanced technology?) by visitors from the Heavens. Amash-Akura set the example of redeeming and reclaiming those who had strayed from the vision. The Dark Age itself has a major role in the faith, as the Chosen of God themselves were re-purified by their trials in the desert (possibly a nomadic period before they could establish the Empire and claim the Promised Land).

Other notable events are the Mad Emperor (who claimed to be God instead of a merely God's viceroy) and the Moral Reforms (where the old way of choosing the Emperor from amongst the Apostles was changed in favour of the Heirs named by the Royal Houses), increasing the power of the nobility and curbing the power of the Church. Of course, even the post-Moral Reform Empire isn't the same as today's Empire. After the reforms, the Theology Council was effectively found to be the Emperor's "evangelists", ret-conning the faith to support the new regime. In the modern Amarr Empire, the Theology Council does have a good deal of power itself, and is hinted at least in the Privy Council Evelopedia article to prefer an Emperor they can "handle" instead of a strong Emperor.

And again a reminder that that is my take on the subject. There's a whole lot of Amarr beliefs, possibly not all believed in by all of the Amarr that may or may not fit into this. (For example, the EVE wormhole being called "Mouth of God".)
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Mathra Hiede

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #7 on: 18 Jan 2011, 06:09 »

I am by  no means a hugely well versed person in Amarrian faith but I can at least lay claim to understanding it (I hope) to the point where one can effectively RP a character who follows the faith.

As Laerise said, the Amarrian god isn't "Be nice to all" its very dominant and driven for Amarrian-Power, "Reclaim all the world for it is thy birthright" sort of thing, they do still follow a similar path in that purely from a religious standpoint Slavery is used to "bring enlightenment to the heathen masses" but even there it still considers the non-Amarrians to be lesser races, something that SHOULD be of note if you want to be a Tradionionalist Amarrian, another example of this is the Ni-Kunni race, If memory serves they struggled for a long time to gain their current status in the Empire because even they, who integrated so well with the Empire where still largely a slave race and only recently gained some sort of parity inside the Empire - as far as I know only the Khanid are truly on par with the True-Amarrians, but this is largely becasue they where both natives of Athra and joined very early on in the picture.

Mith's description is quite a valid interpretation and I happen to think it fits largely although I think the "Dark Ages" simply because of the darkness would be the re-introduction of evil into the Empire, caused by those whose faith wavered without the light and sought other means - Enter the Raiders/Sabik.

But again, with the Empire being as large and dominant as it has been the variation of the faith between the officially santictioned version that the Theology Council would enforce would have enourmous amounts of variation umong certain regions and areas within the empire - but again, being so visibly enforced could mean that its not as big as one might imagine, the threat of death or worse is a strong deterant for many.

Oh and before I forget, there is also an undercurrent of non-belief even within the high-ranking imperials in many of the Chrons I have read, although many seem to find faith in the end its quite possibly just on show most of the time so a potentially interesting point if you want an extra facet to any character ideas.
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Valdezi

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #8 on: 18 Jan 2011, 06:25 »

A lot of these critiques can be dispensed with through the device of 'divine inspiration' - to claim that God has revealed to one's character that elements of the scriptures have been tampered with or that the orthodoxy is heresy and that God has revealed another way.

I mean, it worked for every prophet in history - they all challenged the orthodoxy. Why not us, especially if it makes for cool role-play?
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Seriphyn

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #9 on: 18 Jan 2011, 06:27 »

Whenever I worldshape or RP Amarr, I only use any "Christian" elements as far as having priests, church and ceremonies, otherwise I aim for a more Arabic/Persian vibe (naming styles definitely seems to be like that).

I do think that the Amarr God, if it was to resemble the Christian one at all, would have more resemblance to the God in the Old Testament, who was rather vengeful and whatnot. I suppose the "Innocent Faces" chron might shed some light on a more evangelical look, but it's still my belief that chron is overly Americanized (or maybe Gallenteanized?)

One of the more interesting discussions I always figured out was how the Amarr projects its influence through religion. The Federation and Empire are both power-projecting entities, using different methods to do so. The Federation uses diplomacy, fashion, cuisine, ideology and entertainment (soft power) while the Empire has a greater hard power element to it (curbstomp with their massive military, for example. Could be matched by Federation but would take a while for them to go to war-footing).

The goal of both the Empire and the Federation is the same, to "conquer the world" ("The Reclaiming" by Jamyl, and "grand project of universal freedom" from Roden). The Federation has the Republic in their camp by virtue of shared population, similar ideologies and so on. Though the Caldari are incredibly resistant, the Gallente have made progress via projecting their own capitalism into the State, and cuisine. In the Empire, they have influences still, but it doesn't seem to have as major an effect (matching 'great culture').

The question is, how does the Empire project influence? It uses religion, and with the emanicipation act, seems to be destabilizing the Republic, along with the Salvation Crusaders...such things that most Minmatar speak the Amarrian language, and that two entire Republic tribes are Amarr believers. They have the State in their camp via a massive financial bond and the Khanid Kingdom (which, from news items, combines corporate capitalism with theocracy).
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Elsebeth Rhiannon

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #10 on: 18 Jan 2011, 07:07 »

I think, personally, that the lack of a single "messiah" figure, and the lack of the idea of personal salvation via faith remove the Amarrian religion quite far from Christianity. The Amarrian religion seems to portray a vengeful God who wants everyone to be His servant, and the way to achieve this is not primarily to tell them how God is love and all that jazz, or even to give them the traditional Christian choice of sword or conversion, but to subjugate them for enough many generations that eventually you breed races that are compatible with God's plan. And smite those who don't fit into it while you are at it.

(I think that's a wonderful twist on religion, and the whole evolution vs creation thing too. Anyway, beside the point.)

How far individual Holders etc go in subjugating those in their care and smiting those they cannot, can vary, obviously. Even to the point of thinking slavery is mistaken, and the service should be voluntary, I guess. But I am not sure you can remove the "betterment via service over generations" completely and still claim your sect is part of the Amarrian Faith, rather than something completely different, so ingrained it seems to be in the faith itself.

That's not to say I object to people playing characters who think God did not mean that at all but something completely different. Every religion has its crazy prophets and the EVE universe is big enough and capsuleers are eccentric anyway.

I think, though, that if you play an Amarrian citizen expressing such extreme views as "all races are equal" and "slavery should be completely abolished" and "God did not mean us to Reclaim the Minmatar", and so forth, you should incorporate into your story some difficulties and persecution this has brought upon you and your family in the Empire. Because I don't think that's the standard view of the God at all in the Empire, and I don't think they'll just let people walk around saying stuff like that and think nothing of it.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #11 on: 18 Jan 2011, 07:11 »

Amarrians are the space Jews.
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Mithfindel

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #12 on: 18 Jan 2011, 07:34 »

Like Seriphyn noted, it is worthy to compare the Federation and the Empire. Just like Gallente take it for granted that they have their <insert consumer product and/or service here>, the Amarr have faith. It very likely isn't simply something what secular people (like I assume most of us are) would consider "religion" or being a "practicing believer" - as in, the faith as an action or a statement of something. Rather, for Amarr, "practicing" the faith - perhaps with the exception of some holidays and other "more rare" events - would be as natural as we find having a lunch break.

I think some chronicle or a short story did mention prayer booths - kind of phone booths, except that these have devices that did play back religious material and delivered chemical assistance for getting a religious experience. I'd assume that those would be popular with the busy young upstarts (you know, they were nobodies just three generations ago) in the capital to get the prayer done between making deals at the after-service social event on the morning and heading to the slave market on the afternoon.

The above example also includes the idea of something happening over many generations. I think Paradise is mentioned, so there might be some concept of personal salvation. However, the emphasis clearly is that your acts trickle down to your descendants, so the catch is that if you act well with the system, your children or their children might be better off. Kind of a circle logic there, too - serve well and remember your place and teach your children to do the same, so that their children might, perhaps, raise is status.

Of course, that is only valid for commoners - or only certain facets of the society. It is still completely legal to get rich, possibly even for slaves, as long as you don't try to act against a higher social class. You can enjoy yourself, as long as it is not something differing too much of the norm. The extraordinary example is the Tash-Murkon family. Another example would be the military. It might be, however, that gaining status within a social niche is accepted, and may over the generations even cause social class movement. Military might be the quick way to the top, because a soldier - in fitting conditions - might be able to turn from a private to a general while still staying within the same social niche of "practitioner of the killing profession". Worth to note that I find social discussion perfectly on topic in an Amarr religion thread, since by definition, everything Amarr is religion or religious.

In a way, I assume that the Amarr Empire wouldn't have seemed that strange a few hundred years ago. At least around here, the Church was the institution that took care of things like teaching people to read, recording births, deaths and marriages and so on. There were clearly understood codes, such as a dead person might be clearly identified based on how the church bells rung in his or her memory. The social status directly reflected to worship (with people sitting in the church in places dictated by their social status - and for the better off people in conservative villages/towns, worship would not have been optional unless you wanted the image of a godless outcast).
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DrizzCat

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #13 on: 18 Jan 2011, 07:51 »

I always Felt that the Amarr Religion had an Old School Old Testament Feel to it.  An Eye for an Eye kinda thing.

As that I have, as of yet, not read a copy of the Koran I'm not sure how close it comes to that particular faith, But I do have a feeling that Judaism Won't be close to the Amarr religion at all. 
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Amarrian religion and Christianity?
« Reply #14 on: 18 Jan 2011, 08:32 »

First of all you should devote a few hours to study the scriptures listed in the PIE scriptures/PF thread on the stories forum - and also another few hours to the study of the scripture collection on the evelopedia.

Are the scriptures on the Evelopaedia not all that there are? Or does the PIE threads have some people's thoughts on things?


Looking at missions, there is a hideous sect called the Flame of Peace, which has terrible cannibalistic rituals. When the capsuleer sent by the agent confronts them, they explain the rituals as purely symbolistic.

Amarr Navy Agent: "This new 'religion' is one of the most twisted travesties of faith we have ever encountered. They talk much of peace and love and all such nonsense, but according to their text, they kill and eat one of their members during their most sacred rituals. After the ritual slaughter they roast their victim's flesh in the so-called Flame of Peace and share it among the congregation. Now you see how dangerous these deranged fanatics are!"

Flame of Peace Chosen:"The Theology Council told you that we eat people? Vile lies! Our rituals are symbolic. We eat consecrated protein cake, not our brethren!"

The cake, may be a Lie! :o

There's also the passage in the Scriptures where it mentions that "The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood."
This may be one of the things that led to the eventual formation of the Sani Sabik and the Blood Raiders.


personal salvation via faith

Various scriptures say some things of this nature. like the story of Garum, Zakara and the Beast, and also the Amarr Askura which says "For whosoever shall lay his life down for his Lord, He shall be taken into the arms of God, And forever consecrated will he be"



Also got these things about stuff, might be relevant
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=372.0
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=374.0

about the different religions, and also about what priests are - The Scriptures contain many things.
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