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[Merdaneth]

I think standings is a misused game mechanic. Standing doesn't in any way shape or form imply loyalty to the NPC corp or faction that one has positive standings towards. Vice versa for negative standing, negative standing doesn't imply disloyalty, hatred or opposition.

Standings are generally received by doing missions. Most (99%) of players do missions because of the rewards. They are mercenaries, and if someone else makes a better offer, you can bet that they'll be working for the opposing faction in no time.

I find it preposterous that in a world like EVE every faction and corporation publically broadcasts their standings database, telling everyone how much they like or dislike certain people or organizations. As we already know as players, standings have nothing to do with trust or loyalty, and seeing someone's standings is only an indication what organization he has done missions for, and doesn't say anything about his affiliation or trustworthiness.

Especially in a world as EVE, where things aren't supposed to be black and white, but shades of grey, I find that absolute standing number an abomination. It is even more abonimable to have standings automatically linked in most cases.

I'd prefer if standings where ditched altogether, lacking that, at least rename it to something less invasive.

[Grr]

I'd agree with this in principle.  The most proactive anti pirate organisations out there have a member base with mostly negative sec status.

And those who grind up the ranks in FW more often than not have no loyalty to the faction they fly for.

[Merdaneth]

And those who grind up the ranks in FW more often than not have no loyalty to the faction they fly for.

And let's not forget that the Amarr Navy has the utmost respect for someone like Kazzzi. Them and the Caldari Navy like him more than say, the Tribal Liberation Force....

[Graanvlokkie]

An interesting thought, but a difficult question to answer. Personally, I do take standings into account when trying to assess a capuleers loyalty IC, but don’t attach a great deal of weight to it.

It does touch on the issue of whether in space actions, and in the extreme case whether pure PvE actions, constitute RP. I believe they do, and should. When running missions I only run missions for corps and factions that my character is aligned to, so I have no problems personally with my standings not reflecting my loyalty. Its also the reason that when I flew missions for Amarr corps I turned down missions that had any Caldari ships in it, not because I didnt want to loose Caldari standings, but because those pilots are my brethren. This is also the reason I am grinding missions for the Sansha corps at the moment and never fire on a Sansha rat.

The counter argument is "I have high standings with Caldari from when I was a noob mission runner and now want to be loyal to faction X, but my standings with faction X suck, and I don’t want to grind them up because mission running sucks, and is difficult ...". Why should changing loyalties be easy?

You have a negative standing for a reason. Can you claim to be an Amarr loyalist while running missions for minnie corps and blowing up the Amarr navy on a daily basis? RP wise, will any NPC of importance speak to you or acknowledge you as being loyal if records show that you hire your services to the enemy on a daily basis?

I don’t agree with the flip side either though, that having high standings automatically makes you a loyalist and trusted by the faction. High standings would simply make you the preferred mercenary of choice.

[Casiella]

I look at it this way: I like to RP via my standings but I don't impose that view on others.

[Bong-cha Jones]

I'd say high standings don't necessarily imply loyalty, but it's not a bad prima facie argument to make.  Personally, I feel that standings are a social condition that exists between two parties.  There's a correlation between standings and loyalty, but ultimately useful spies are held in esteem by the people they're spying on, for instance.  I would suspect that the Serpentis, as an organization, don't have a lot of love for Simon, while the Federation is on the verge of giving him rights to anchor a space station.  To sum up, standings say more about how a group feels about a capsuleer than how a capsuleer feels about them.

On the other hand, it's not all that hard to control standings.  My corporate fire policy includes a scale for NPC's, from 'never fire on' for Federal and Republic vessels, to 'don't fire on unless it's convenient' for Mordu's Legion everywhere but Intaki Prime, to 'fire at will' for pirate faction ships everywhere and Amarr/Caldari ships in Federal space.  While a pod pilot may sell his services to any faction at any time, one who almost always sells to your faction is a safer bet than one who doesn't.  So, as I said above, it's a safe starting assumption that high standings likely mean some sort of loyalty, but be prepared to modify your perception as you gain information on the character in question.

That's how I do it, anyways.

[orange]

Standing doesn't in any way shape or form imply loyalty to the NPC corp or faction that one has positive standings towards. Vice versa for negative standing, negative standing doesn't imply disloyalty, hatred or opposition.

I would adjust the above statement:
High positive/negative standings do not imply current loyalty/opposition to an NPC corp or faction.

It does however indicate that the character in question at one time or another was loyal or in opposition to the NPC corp or faction in question.

Even the most mercenary of capsuleers are encouraged to be loyal by providing them rewards, access to higher-end agents & better pay.  If you spent your time as a noob running missions in Motsu for the CN, your character spent their early independent capsuleer career running missions for the CN in Motsu.  Tough nuggets if you now want to work for Guristas, but have crap standings, go run the epic arc and work to improve your standings with the Guristas.

It does tounch on the issue of whether in space actions, and in the extreame case whether pure PvE actions, constitute RP.

Years ago, I was running missions for LDPS in Nourv, a STIM or SF personality undocked behind me from the same station.  I called them out in local as supporting the very corporations they swore to take down.  They responded with something very mercenary in nature, but a good quick explanation, and we both went on our way.

Like PvP, RP is non-consensual.  If you are in space and run into another RPer, expect them to hold you to your presence in that system and your actions in space.

[Altaen]

I'd prefer if standings where ditched altogether, lacking that, at least rename it to something less invasive.

You make excellent points. I would agree with doing away with them as public knowlege, but I do think that CEOs and Directors should be able to see their corp member's standings...

I mostly agree that the standings are not a sign of loyalty...but it doesn't mean there isn't a little RP to be had based on who you choose to work for.

Edited to add: If it happens at all, it happens ICly. I firmly believe that you should not ignore who you run missions for ICly. Example: I'd love to run the Angel Epic Arc...but certainly will not until I can work out either a damned good excuse, or an alt without Altaen's inhibitions.

[Altaen]

Like PvP, RP is non-consensual.  If you are in space and run into another RPer, expect them to hold you to your presence in that system and your actions in space.

Very well said.

[Alain Colcer]

Odd, always considered them the level of "connection" and reputation that i had from the perspective of that particular NPC corp or faction.

I mean, if you look at my standings in game, the Federation could consider me dependable, as i've worked quite a bit for them, they would still be wary as my nature of capsuleer would mean i could turn on them any minute....but the reputation precedes me.

If i was suddenly turned into a Serpentis loyalist, people would not believe it at first, unless i started to do things that proved otherwise. This reflects a bit on how i need to work standings up.


But regardless if its a valid RP mechanic or not, i'm in favor a very large and very important rebuild of the whole mechanic in game.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Standings being a true reflection on your IG relationships with these entities I can see valid points for both ways.  I prefer to ignore them since many people may just want to play a game for fun without the "I caught you RPing such-and-such" games...SWG spoiled me with the (OOC) tag you could turn on over your head to let people know that you going into the cantina and staring at half-naked chicks (getting buffs) was not in the same reality-continuity as your RP stuff.

I don't think they are something we should have access to about each other.  I can't fathom the Guristas or other criminal groups dutifully reporting their lists of loyalists to CONCORD.

[Saede Riordan]

Edited to add:  I'd love to run the Angel Epic Arc...but certainly will not until I can work out either a damned good excuse,

Nikita smiles casually

Oh come now, you know you want to, what harm could it do? What's a penny here or there? What's a life?


heh.

Standings are one of those things that I'd really like to be able to use realistically, and I'm working hard to get my angel standings somewhere shiny. However, I know that its simply not realistic to ask my members to have high standings. Not only that, but I can't even really use the faction standings to determine my policies on engagement, because they've never been updated, and according to standings, I should be neutral with the Caldari and Amarr, sworn enemies of the Minmatar and Gallent, and on "shoot if its not too much trouble and they're stepping out of line" with the Guristas, Blooders, and Sansha. Which, I'm not sure is really a realistic outlook. Also, the way standings trickles through faction associations is just silly.

Basically, faction standings are borked beyond belief by CCP ignoring them. I'd like to be able to use faction standings, but without a major system overhaul, I can't realistically do so.

I'd like to see this overhaul done, and I could seem some interesting RP mechanics come out of it, where you can declare loyalty to a faction and the longer you play by their rules and do their things, your faction standings will passively trickle up.

[Vikarion]

I believe in the RP meaning of standings and I use them. I've worked to get Vikarion's State standings as high as they are, and spent about 4-5 months getting his Angel standings up.

It's not a perfect system, but I agree - changing loyalties should be hard. In fact, I'd possibly like stiffer penalties for having bad standings with a faction - maybe no docking at their navy facilities or something else interesting like that.

[Kazzzi]

And those who grind up the ranks in FW more often than not have no loyalty to the faction they fly for.

And let's not forget that the Amarr Navy has the utmost respect for someone like Kazzzi. Them and the Caldari Navy like him more than say, the Tribal Liberation Force....

My Amarr Navy standing has been like that for over 2 years, it's annoying. I actually tried to reduce my Amarr Navy standings by accepting then refusing missions for them, but my Amarr faction standing is now too low to get missions it seems. Except possibly with lvl 1s, haven't tried to see if they are still available yet. The next thing I'm going to try is killing the NPC traders and couriers at Amarr stations, I noticed during our last empire campaign that this reduces NPC corp standings pretty quick.

It's easy to kill your NPC faction standings by missioning against them, but for most NPC corps, unless you make a conscious effort to alter your standings like this, it won't happen under normal gaming circumstances.

Also, lets not forget that while an NPC corp might like you, it doesn't mean that it's a wise choice for them to feel that way.

[Louella Dougans]

My Amarr Navy standing has been like that for over 2 years, it's annoying. I actually tried to reduce my Amarr Navy standings by accepting then refusing missions for them, but my Amarr faction standing is now too low to get missions it seems. Except possibly with lvl 1s, haven't tried to see if they are still available yet. The next thing I'm going to try is killing the NPC traders and couriers at Amarr stations, I noticed during our last empire campaign that this reduces NPC corp standings pretty quick.

Lvl 1 missions are always available from agents of Quality 0 or less, regardless of standing.

Npc trade ships reduce standings, yes.