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[Ken]

If, as a self-appointed champion of sorts, your behavior is demonstrative of "the old guard of Gallente RP", I'm glad it's not around any more.

Also, what plans?  I just think you're wrong.  Which gets to this point: we aren't going to agree.  You aren't going to agree with many people.  They aren't going to agree with you.  We've already said about all there is to say, so made the poll.  If you think it's so wrong, report it to the mods.

[Julianus Soter]

Well, ask yourself Ken, why you can't bring yourself to admit that if this same thing was done in the Republic, it'd have encountered hell's fury in the form of Electus Matari.

Is Electus Matari also in the wrong? Are they not true roleplayers, because they'd want to 'ruin the fun' of other people that just want to do a teensy-weensy storyline? Would you also be glad if they vanished and went away, so folks can create more non-player characters within the IGS to spout off on various timely political issues, in other factions?

It is clear that some folks do agree with me, but don't want to participate in this debate. Whether or not that's due to the chilling effect the moderation policy of this forum or not, you can't simply begin dismissing debate out of hand.

Do you want a point-by-point response to your 'rebuttal'?

"I agree.  Afaik, the internals of Federation party politics haven't been touched in detail by CCP since a couple chrons way back, and they don't have any real presence in the game world like Lai Dai certainly does.  I think your analogy has some merit, orange, but doesn't quite cover the nuance of this situation."

If you didn't follow the situation with last year's political election, there was a large deal of detail outlining the internal affairs of the FIO, the Senate, and the nature of Federation executive authority. There is no vacuum that needs to be fleshed out by the player base. the player base merely needs to interact with what exists, as Capsuleers would react to the cosmopolitics of the region they inhabit. Would make sense, no?

"To be fair these politicians don't claim to be NPCs either.  They're clearly player characters, just not capsuleers.  The inability for paying customers of CCP to create non-capsuleer characters that can interact with the official channels and game world of EVE is the root of this entire argument."

This is remarkable. A player character can be a normal human? Why is it that when they log into the game for the first time, after creating the character, they're in a pod? The suspension of disbelief required to maintain that kind of ruse is a bit much. And the amount required to maintain it while they're mouthing off daily on the IGS on important political topics is intolerable. The simple solution, of course, is that we end up with people writing out-of-game fiction involving NPC's that don't even need to be named.

"A lot of us, myself included, are decrying the motivations behind the (otherwise valid) criticisms, but the politicians have defended their legitimacy in an IC way on IGS.  It's not as if they've simply ignored Soter altogether."

This meshes nicely with your other comment: "If, as a self-appointed champion of sorts, your behavior is demonstrative of "the old guard of Gallente RP", I'm glad it's not around any more."

It's always easy to resort to the ad hominems, isn't it? What specifically about my motivations or my behavior has any standing in this current discussion? As far as I can tell, my behavior has been daring to disagree with people. Ohnoes.

Regarding the issues of defending their legitimacy on the IGS in an IC way: after my final point, there has been no response whatsoever from any of the "politician" characters. That post being:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1418776&page=1#24

Indeed, that's the core of the issue. If CCP wanted us the ability to fabricate in-game corporations full of non-capsuleers, they'd have provided that functionality. They have not. Our characters are capsuleers, graduates of capsuleer programs and regulated under CONCORD law. That is the basis of this entire MMORPG. I mean, even most dungeons and dragons adventures respect the laws of the setting and don't allow starting characters to walk out of the bar as the emperor of a kingdom. To do have that happen here is, in my view, detrimental to immersion and suspension of disbelief.

Having to explain this to younger RP'ers that don't quite understand the context of this situation would also be extremely difficult. It's creating barriers of entry to expanding the RP base.

[Ken]

I honestly appreciate the effort given in writing your last post, Jules, and I think it rather certainly solidifies the fact that we aren't going to agree on this.  I'd also like to put aside the sour tone we're both taking and look at this a new way.

Is it possible to define two competing philosophies of RP from this?  I know you'll be tempted to simply tell me mine is wrong, but consider for a moment that I'm not going to be swayed by your arguments just as you won't be swayed by mine.  We're just chasing each others tails.  But I don't think I consider your take on this matter objectively invalid, just undesirable to me.  If you can say the same, perhaps we can move forward and try to articulate closed-sandbox and open-sandbox views of New Eden and RP (this hits on my earlier points about the Star Wars Expanded Universe) outside the specific context of the politicians.

[Julianus Soter]

As far as I can tell, the two competing philosophies of RP are what led to the formation of this forum, which is a splinter of another RP forum that contains about the same number of active participants.

[Casiella]

The forum differences are much more about moderation policy and the appropriate tone to use during debate, rather than approaches to RP.

And we appreciate the efforts from all parties to maintain a civilized tone in these threads, by the by.

[Ulphus]

Well, ask yourself Ken, why you can't bring yourself to admit that if this same thing was done in the Republic, it'd have encountered hell's fury in the form of Electus Matari.

Is Electus Matari also in the wrong? Are they not true roleplayers, because they'd want to 'ruin the fun' of other people that just want to do a teensy-weensy storyline?

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in our mouths, thanks Mr Soter.

If someone did something similar with the Republic Parliament, I think there are enough different strands of RP inside EM that some people would be for it, and some against, depending on the style and content of the claims. We're not a collection of Rpers with identical views.

[Julianus Soter]

I recognize the differences in opinion Ulphus. But what is your personal opinion, if someone claimed to be some higher level functionary of the Brutor Tribe's parliamentary caucus? I'm honestly curious.

[orange]

I have not read every detail of the IGS discussion.

Have the characters stated categorically they are not capsuleers?  If so, my OOC question to the player is why did they choose to attempt to portray them as such?

Does having these characters not be capsuleers gain them anything?

Plenty of NPCs are capsuleers, 3 of the 4 empire's chief executive is a capsuleer, multiple NPC corporate CEOs are capsuleers, perhaps even the agents we interact with.  Potentially they are merely infomorphs, but that is not far from being a capsuleer.

Down the road, can we expect DUST Commanders; non-capsuleers, but infomorphs; to interact on IGS?

another RP forum that contains about the same number of active participants.

Said forum's active participants is dramatically lower  at present.

[Julianus Soter]

From Alain Octirant, "Chairman" of the Federal Nationalist Party:

"Our party is not a capsuleer "corporation", Mr Soter. Neither I nor any of us here in the office know how to fly a starship with our hands let alone our minds, and as far as I know, no capsuleer has yet come forward asking to be signed up as an official volunteer or party officer. We take the InterBus, and I have been assured by my general council that should your organization ever "declare war" and your forces board any civilian vessel transporting employees of the Federal Nationalist Party's organizing committee or land at any station or colony housing them in order to detain or inflict harm upon those persons, those forces will be considered in violation of several Federal laws."

[Z.Sinraali]

Is the objection that these characters aren't capsuleers or that as portrayed, they're overly important? (Or something else entirely.)

[John Revenent]

I like it, that is all.. 

[Julianus Soter]

My personal contention with the use of these 'non-capsuleers' is that. . . it's impossible in-character to be the CEO of a corporation created under the Yulai Conventions, claiming to be the Chairman of a major political party in a faction representing hundreds of billions of people, and also not be a capsuleer. You can't be wardecced under the Yulai Conventions if you're not a  capsuleer, but clearly that can happen with these people. Alain Octirant even claims that such an attempt to engage his corporation in a wardec would be against Federation Law, which is just false.

The inconsistencies and claims to legitimacy as representatives of billions of people in a multi-regional democracy just sticks something into me and twists hard. I dunno. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

My personal contention with the use of these 'non-capsuleers' is that. . . it's impossible in-character to be the CEO of a corporation created under the Yulai Conventions. claiming to be the Chairman of a major political party in a faction representing hundreds of billions of people, and also not be a capsuleer. You can't be wardecced under the Yulai Conventions if you're not a  capsuleer, but clearly that can happen with these people. Alain Octirant even claims that such an attempt to engage his corporation in a wardec would be against Federation Law, which is just false.

Because ICly he's operating as if his corporation is not a capsuleer/Yulai corporation.

So once again, I challenge you to clarify for me if you apply the standards of absolute infallability of the system-determined attributes of your character or not equally.

Where were my characters educated?

The inconsistencies and claims to legitimacy as representatives of billions of people in a multi-regional democracy just sticks something into me and twists hard. I dunno. Maybe I'm old fashioned

You are choosing to draw incredible attention to some attribute lines that we are given next to no control over.  Have you never experienced moments in RP when the game rules actually get in the way more than help?

They are not claiming to be representatives, so please stop presenting hyperbolic exaggerations of the actual situation.  Their analogues in the real world are, in most cases, people who's names most people don't even know (party chairs/elders/political insiders and operatives).

Please prove to me that your view is "old fashioned" and why that makes it better (Appeal to Tradition). A lot of my background is freeform IRC RP, so from my perspective, making things out of whole cloth instead of with narrow constraints is "old fashioned".

[Graanvlokkie]

This poll was a suprise. It strikes me as a "we have had a debate, now lets see who the crowd says has won" thread. Can the two threads be merged, as having two threads on the same topic is derailing the very good debate that was happening.

I also want to say that I am agreeing with Soter on may of his points, including his statement about respecting the game setting. The setting had been constructed to allow various things and disallow others. You cant make a non capsuleer charater, just like how you cant be a wearwolf (sp) in my vampire game because the setting does not allow it, or a clockwork robot in my DnD game if the setting does not allow it.

It doesnt mean that it is not good RP however. I havnt followed all the threads, but it appears to be some really good RP that is going on, but it seems like it is not fitting into the setting.

I know there are lots of thing that the mechanics of the game dont allow and that we have to RP, like leaving our ships or going to planet, but there is also some things that the game setting does not allow, irrespective of whether you can or cant use the mechanics to accomplish it.

Personally, if you appear in game, or have a profile if I do a charater search in game, you are a capsuleer. Thats why I havnt made profiles for my charaters family that has appeared in some of my fiction.

A while ago there was threads about godmodding and spheres of influence. Making a non-capsuleer charater is against the mechanics, perhaps we can roleplay that though. Making a non-capsuleer charater that appears in game, in space or in station and can interact on the IGS seems to go against the setting. Making a non-capuleer charater that does the aforesaid and has political influence that can affect my charater and my roleplay directly is boardering on godmodding if taken too far.

I would react the same as Soter if someone came along and said that he is True Slave 567, has tea with Sansha himself and is carrying out Sansha's direct orders.

[Ulphus]

I recognize the differences in opinion Ulphus. But what is your personal opinion, if someone claimed to be some higher level functionary of the Brutor Tribe's parliamentary caucus? I'm honestly curious.

I think it would rather depend on what they said. Frankly, Shakor can get stuffed if he thinks his flunkies can order us about. The Lord of my Lord is not my Lord and all that.

Hmm, I guess that means I'd react to them as if they were jumped up self-opinionated flunkies rather than people trying to usurp CCPs rightful place as provider of canon.

But then, I'm used to RPing with people who weren't "capsuleers", and just not noticing that they're actually appearing in local, or Rping with people in bars who are "interbussing" and don't actually appear in local. Or even having RP in a chat channel that claims to be on the surface of a planet, and indeed, RPing in an IRC channel to the same ends.

The game system is to me an imperfect reflection of the world. The RP is the thing. My SOD is good enough to not see the strings of all the puppets, or the ropes holding the scenery up, unless someone runs around pointing at them.

Of course, there are all sorts of provisos. I could see someone saying "I work for Shakor, and he says all join together and shoot Ushra'Khan now" as stretching my SOD to breaking point, and I can imagine other events that would likewise put me off.

Ulf