Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Casiella]

Soter, seriously, what's the objection?

If you object to the fact that people come up with different ways of interacting with each other and the universe, then I fail to understand how this differs from your own RP. I don't think anyone should have a problem with your RP, by the way, and I recall happily interacting with you and Jonny during your characters' run for office. ("Why the hell not?")

Otherwise, it looks more and more like you object to things based on your feelings toward the players in question and whether they willingly accept your own pronouncements, IC and OOC. This presents significant obstacles on a number of levels that shouldn't need spelling out.

[Seriphyn]

[ 2010.11.30 22:06:32 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Ah, Illuminatus. You possess planetside evac centers too, do you not?
[ 2010.11.30 22:06:38 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Let us have our people coordinate.
[ 2010.11.30 22:06:39 ] Doctor Illuminatus > Acknowledged, Pilot Inhonores. Fraction commande network exchanging encrypted handshake protocols with your network now.
[ 2010.11.30 22:07:05 ] Citizen Astur > Dropship squadrons reinforcing.
[ 2010.11.30 22:07:09 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Recieved and acknowledged. Six FDU spaceports on the ground.
[ 2010.11.30 22:10:37 ] Doctor Illuminatus > Black Rose Commando SAM crews report contact with hostile dropships.
[ 2010.11.30 22:11:02 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > FDU platoons report nothing as so far, will keep updated.
[ 2010.11.30 22:11:24 ] Doctor Illuminatus > Reporting heavy anti-missile jamming. Infowar troops responding with adapted LADAR. Effective range may be reduced.
[ 2010.11.30 22:12:09 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Copy, intel relayed to FDU mobile teams.
[ 2010.11.30 22:12:34 ] Citizen Astur > Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 reporting resistance. Deploying additional reinforcements from portals alpha and beta.
[ 2010.11.30 22:12:46 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > That's it, FDU ground forces engaged.

I'm going to agree with Casiella dude. Come on, it's just like...make believe. You're arguing against make believe.

[Julianus Soter]

This is all out of character debate, as far as I can tell, based on out of character knowledge.

In-character most of this issue is already resolved. The flow of information was too chaotic to tell if anything directly related to any activity in Oruse had a significant impact. It is known that Anslo nor Seriphyn are in possession of five hundred thousand individuals, as was claimed.

Continuing the out of character debate, the primary issue that appears here is whether it is possible to invade planets as capsuleers, outside of facwar mechanics or 0.0 sovereignty operations.

The implication of landing troops on a planet requires official recognition from the planetary government and the sovreign power within the system. Anslo, in-character, said he never talked with the Planetary governor. Therefor, it would appear he was taking unilateral action.

Whether or not Seriphyn received official recognition from the sovreign power of the system to land ground forces is the second issue. His affiliation with the FDU notwithstanding, Oruse is a uncontested system in Solitude lowsec. Is it possible for capsuleers of high Federation standing to arbitrarily garrison troops wherever they like? Intaki, perhaps?

Regarding local chat communications, the hypothesis I would like to suggest is that local ground forces and Federation marines had been alerted of the impending attack via communications with Haeldone Dorgiers, and on the IGS, of the planned Oruse invasion. These forces were better prepared to resist for a time the onslaught, although they were finally overcome.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

These live events aren't about who's the baddest FC. It's a roleplay event. Roleplay is make believe.

Speak for yourself. For me RP is not about make-believing yourself into a successful soldier. It is about being a bad-ass FC and RPing that. Or else, trying to be a bad-ass FC, failing that, and RPing the failure.

Obviously, these live events are about your kind of RP, not about my kind of. Which is why I do not do them much if I can avoid (pls keep them out of the Republic kthxbai). For example: I was really really excited when I heard about how people had discovered that graviton ECM works on the wormholes, because I thought they had actually taken a jammer, pointed it at a wormhole while dodging Sansha ships, and seen that wormhole collapse. Then I heard that actually it was just "make believe" and that to have your jammers work, you actually had to announce on local that you are using them, which totally killed the interest to me.

YMMV, obviously, and I don't object to other people enjoying that sort of stuff. But please do not try and pose "RP" as something diametrically opposed to actually being good at the game.

[Seriphyn]

Well of course it's easy to claim RP is all about being a badass FC if you ARE a badass FC 

I'm not interested in working up a big OOC following with lots of leverage in game mechanics or whatever so I can put weight behind my RP...if people ever read my fiction (for example) it's about Seriphyn the character and the fictional universe, not the Federation and certainly not the video game.

And again, I never claimed IC or OOC how many we 'evacced' from Oruse II. I'm happy to go with the player article about an 'attempt'. On specific numbers, there's others you can take it up with.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Obviously, you are not into the sort of RP that I am into, Seri. That was my point, actually. 

You are mistaken that it is not about "working up a big OOC following", though. It is about preferring to RP in a world that I interact with, rather than make-believe in. I am not trying to say my way is better than yours; I am simply asking that you do not make statements like "this is about RP, not about being good at pvp" as if those are opposite things for every RPer. Because they aren't. Just for some of us.

BTW, to the actual matter at hand: since the dropships are imaginary, I do not consider inventing make-believe planetary forces to counter them "godmodding", especially when CCP seems to have played along. You are right that these events seem to basically be about make-believe as much as or more than they are about actually knowing your shit in space. I do not object to make-believing in a make-believe event. I simply object to claiming that RP = pure make-believe, and actually being good at pvp is something completely separate.

Incidentally, I suck at FCing.

[Seriphyn]

O-er, yeah, that second paragraph of my previous post look directed at you but I more meant it in the general sense 

[Casiella]

Interacting with CCP via game mechanics seems to me not much different from interacting with CCP via "make believe" / traditional RP means. In both cases, the character tries something and CCP arbitrates the result, particularly the actions and consequences for NPCs.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Interacting with CCP via game mechanics seems to me not much different from interacting with CCP via "make believe" / traditional RP means. In both cases, the character tries something and CCP arbitrates the result, particularly the actions and consequences for NPCs.

Yea, I know many people feel this way. For myself, I'd prefer what happens in the space to happen via game mechanics, and make-believe only supplement for things that are not about space. I don't really even know why exactly, but it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.

Again, YMMV, and I am fine with that. I am glad people enjoy the Sansha events - even if I don't, they provide background and events in the world I can react to, regardless of whether I was there. I know I am repeating myself, but I really really really do not mean to object to the events as such, only to the implication that RP = make-believe, as opposed to based on game mechanics.

[Louella Dougans]

it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.

when people were jamming the wormholes, at least some of them were actually activating modules on the wormhole object in space.

however, it does nothing, unless they announce it, the actor sees their announcement, recognises it, and acts on it.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.

when people were jamming the wormholes, at least some of them were actually activating modules on the wormhole object in space.

however, it does nothing, unless they announce it, the actor sees their announcement, recognises it, and acts on it.

Yea. My problem is actually not so much not being able to activate the module, but that it does nothing unless I pose about it on local too.

And to disclaim again: that's just my problem. I do not mind other people enjoying this stuff.

[Ken]

Yea. My problem is actually not so much not being able to activate the module, but that it does nothing unless I pose about it on local too.

A: So I'm here, right?

B: Yea, and you're still hidden.  Want to do a sneak attack on the Thayan mage?

A: No, I've got this red robe on.  I want to pretend to be a new acolyte.  I clear my throat and say, 'Excuse me, i'm looking for the arcane accessories room.'

B: Oh.  Umm... The mage is startled and turns on you, glaring, but doesn't attack... yet.

Appreciate your tolerance of local-poseurs, Elsebeth.  I remain curious, however.  Does this perhaps come down to a disconnect between former/current tabletop RPG players and primarily electronic gamers?

For the record, I flew a Blackbird into some of those early incursions and did actually activate gravi ECM on the holes.  Op Bad Moon wasn't (isn't?) just about posing in local, but the game doesn't have the mechanics to depict the complex sci-fi battlefield that the backstory suggests.  So you wing it.  DM says, "Success/Fail" or, lacking a DM, player consensus tells you "Success/Fail".  Do you just prefer the DM ruling to be in the form of the cut-and-dry rules and limits of the client rather than subject to any human interpretation?  Simply exploring your thoughts here.  Think we've already been over where I stand on the topic overall...

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Appreciate your tolerance of local-poseurs, Elsebeth.  I remain curious, however.  Does this perhaps come down to a disconnect between former/current tabletop RPG players and primarily electronic gamers?

Nope.

I play tabletop RPGs extensively, for... ugh, I'm old... 25 years now (so did before internet). Currently I play a tabletop session maybe once or twice a month, which is way down in frequency from my youth. I've done a lot of diceless/ruleless play too and while I do not prefer that, with a good GM it does not really make much difference to me. And I expect the GM to make exception to rules when it makes sense to do so, in fact.

What is sort of similar in my tabletop and EVE experiences is that in tabletops too, games/campaigns I enjoy most tend to be "character-heavy", based on character development and interaction and exploring the world rather than in the GM trying to "tell a story". (Immersion versus narration, to any oldtimer Usenet users.)

I suppose that in EVE, I feel that "the way" I interact with the space-parts of the game is defined as the game client, and "the way" CCP is supposed to wing it is to change the game client. Thinking about it, I can identify twothree things at least that play a part in why the "posing on local about it" thing does not work for me:

1) When I usually speak on local, it is Else who speaks, and she has a reason to speak. In a normal fleet, she'd not announce ECM on local -- hell no, that would be breaking opsec and get her yelled at by the FC, more likely than anything else. If I have to do it in an event, it feels unnatural, it reminds me that this is an event, which breaks the immersion, making it feel like make-believe, not "real". I want the game to feel real even when it isn't, and so I would prefer events to feel the same as regular gameplay, only possibly more so.

2) I have the feeling that the GMs here are "going by the flow". Rather than having decided beforehand that certain types of jammers will work, or this or that is how the players can interact with the event, they throw an event out, see what the players will do, and pick and choose from those ideas those that they make work. While I am aware all GMs everywhere do a bit of it, when taken to the extreme, this sort of "shared storytelling" RP is not my favorite mode anywhere. It makes me feel that I am not "interacting with a world", but rather "inventing a story on the spot", which again tends to break the immersion. One of the major appeals of EVE to me is the "whatever happens in the game [client], happens in the game [world]", and these events seem to break that. If CCP wants to change the rules, I'd rather they coded the change in, than changed it on the fly.

3) I do not like the player consensus arguing about and deciding what is true after the event. Outnumbered tens to one, the GMs have no way to pay equal attention to everyone, and so the most vocal ones (both during the event and after) get heard. I do not like it that players who have the time to discuss it in EVE fiction etc are the ones who get most say in what happened. I want equal opportunity to whomever simply can be present.

[Vlad Cetes]

Next event in advance, I need to deploy some command centers to help round up the populace for evacuation
Also deploy some mechs to kill the other command centers.

[Amann Karris]

I think sometimes people forget:

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1389.0

GalNet = Intergalactic Summit. Those making their in-character points with grace and conviction, and backing them up with in-game action, will win the adulation of the masses and are likely to be included in the storyline.

Post prior to first attack:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423503
Note: Never was there mention, prior to the event, of success or failure; simply that the emplacements had been dropped, and the preparations made.

Account of the attack:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423552&page=1

After-action report confirming events:
http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html

Again, posting on IGS + backing it up in space = inclusion in story, but does not guarantee success.  Claiming success beforehand is a bit of a stretch, but given this circumstance, I don't see that as having happened.

Now, claiming to be directing planetary defenses, hacking Sansha capsuleers, and the like... that's touchy.  Again, those who have been "successful" with that have been vocal on the forums.  IGS + In-space actions = inclusion in storyline.

When I was playing Nikilaiki Ruutarhara, you'd be surprised the interesting and fascinating things I discovered about Sansha's Nation.  Posting in the forums, alongside going to attacks and "doing my thing", resulted in inclusion in some pretty interesting RP and revelations that might just be lost to time. 

Stuff like:
-Cloned Sansha's Nation True Slaves.
-Fed Navy/FDU surveillance in Intaki. 
-Haeldone Dorgiers "Going Rogue" to face the Nation threat (and helping him test whether or not he could actually fight back against Sansha Loyalists).
-The "Big Secret" at the Tama wormhole, and why it stayed open. 

Nikilaiki never fired a shot either.  Well, except at Haeldone Dorgiers, but he asked me to do it.  I swear!

In other words, find a way to interact and run with it.  Try not to step on other people's toes.  Posting in local about "taking control of planetary defenses" is kind of a touchy subject; I wouldn't personally do it, but I also wouldn't call someone on it IC (heck, you could always justify it as PsyOps; trying to convince Sansha that Capsuleers have more power than they do). 

It's not wrong, but it's kind of like saying to a DM during an attack by a dragon on a town, "Okay, now I go to the town guard and lead them in defending the city".  You are perfectly within your rights to say so; the other players are within their rights to roll eyes, possibly make verbal jabs, and for the DM to say "Uh, no.  They're off doing X while you are looking for them.  You just wasted a turn, and 20 peasants just died as you were looking for the City Guard."

The defense of "But I planned this out all nice, see?  I have charts, maps, strategically placed siege gear..." doesn't work.  Why?  Because you didn't show it to the DM beforehand.  Also, if your character doesn't have the actual skills and/or ability to set up said defenses it kind of makes it impossible to pull off.

On the other hand, you character has the skills, means, and opportunity to do X, and you inform the DM beforehand, you're more likely to have your plan put into action.  When the dragon comes, your siege weapons go off without a hitch, peasants are safely within the reinforced shelters you helped design, and the guards are all in magical gear that protects them from the dragon's breath.

It still doesn't keep them safe if marauding orcs attack you on your way to assist; you know, because your plan hinges on you being able to hit that "sweet spot" you discovered on that ancient scroll that told you exactly where to hit the dragon between scales marked with an "X" and a "Y".  The city guard stands up for a while, but eventually they get decimated anyway because the Dragon just won't die, and it just keeps hacking and slashing it's way through your well laid plans...

...yes, I'm aware that I've played far, far too much Dungeons and Dragons in my time. 

The town is lost, but you did interact.   Which is more rewarding?

The long and the short of it:  You can do what you want, but you are most likely to succeed when you do things that a Capsuleer can do.  Placing planetary infrastructure for the purpose of planetary defense and announcing on IGS that you are doing so, in order for the Event Team to actually see it, is the way to go.  With 200+ people in local at any given time, IGS is the best place to give the Event Team a heads-up on the situation so they are on the lookout for you in-game.