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[Seriphyn]

This has caused some stumblingblocks in-character within RP, so I think it needs to be brought up. Some Sansha RPers believe that the victims of the abductions were willing. I'm not one to go "ur doin it wrong" hardly ever, but I would like to encourage that this thought is not universalized. 2 million people are NOT going to just get up and walk to the dropships willingly, like "Oh, hey, let's abandon our perfectly content lives and become mindless clones". HOWEVER, out of 2 million people, you WILL get the crazy Gallentean teenager or other fanatics (hell, there ARE sympathizers, as per Caldari State dealing with them) that will willingly send themselves to the dropships. These are, however, not going to be the majority. In a world like EVE, something crazy like "mind control ray beams" is very likely. Not to mention there is ground side resistance, a la...

2010.05.14 02:39:44 ] Omune Balenne > All surface invasions repelled by local forces.

In regards to mindless clones, there is some serious dispute over this. But this is what they are. As per the Sansha's Nation chron, it is stated that "Sansha’s dream was that these zombie-like creatures could be used as soldiers and guards, thus freeing humans to pursue more peaceful and productive lifestyles". These are True Slaves. From the Stain landmark description it states that "Stations hanging in space that are unnaturally quiet, the passive stares of the denizens sending a chill down even the hardiest of spines."

Then we have True Citizens, like Citizen Astur, who are the humans that pursue such "peaceful and productive lifestyles". I think some thought them to be a player invention, but this is not so...from the Esoteria regional description...

When Sansha's Nation was at the height of its power, Esoteria was one of its richest territories. Scholars, philosophers, scientists, and many of its most affluent True Citizens made it their home. The occupants relied on the remoteness of the region to keep them safe, anticipating that the legions of True Slaves in Stain would remain an impenetrable shield that none could pass.

As such, and willing victims for Sansha's Nation would likely become True Citizens if they have an affinity for creativity. Otherwise, they become mindless clones. In regards to supposed "lack of resistance", there is a clue if one goes on SiSi and looks through Encounters on their journal

The Nation’s influence over system-wide infrastructure is starting to be ruthlessly exploited to the maximum extent possible. Officers in some affected systems are now reporting that Sansha have blocked local news outlets and even emergency broadcast systems from transmitting vital data. Although there are a number of obvious tactical advantages to such a move, the nature and pattern of the Nation’s censorship is neither consistent nor predictable. There may be a more subtle and insidious goal behind these attacks or perhaps their jamming technology is not yet perfected. In either case, these propaganda clusters, although militarily insignificant, nonetheless pose a significant threat to the continued stability of densely populated planets and systems under attack.

What I have highlighted is a clue as to what this apparent willing victim business is about. Sansha's Nation are marketed as the big bad monster that will eat your brains; they have been kidnapping people from unnotable deadspace colonies since their original defeat (as per mission briefings), just now they have upped their game. Considering that...

True Creations is suspected to be chiefly responsible for the re-cloning and implantation of abducted planetside civilians.

The abductees are being taken, implanted, and being cloned and recloned (as per Haeldone Dorgiers comment). "Willing victims" seems very unlikely.

NOW, the BIGGEST thing that is revealed in Incursion is the true intentions of what Sansha Kuvakei desires...

One of the most significant evolutions in the Nation’s strategy has been the move away from abducting planetary populations. Their new tactical doctrine, which relies in part upon system-wide capsule interference, is clearly focused on limiting the power and influence of the capsuleer class.

Crossreferenced with...

Do you know what you are, capsuleer? The truth will not comfort you.
You are a frightened child running headfirst towards oblivion.

And I?
I am the only one who tried to stop you.
I am the Messiah that you turned against.

You persecuted me, hunted my children.
Vowed to burn my Promised Land to ash.


Now I have returned, and I know you better than you know yourself.

I will vanquish your fear, and commute your flesh to dust.

- Sansha Kuvakei

The target of these attacks are the capsuleers. The abductions were merely a way to amass a large enough force to confront the capsuleers and enact his revenge.

As such, enacting utopia seems to have very little to do with it. In THIS way, I feel that Sansha's Nation has a fantastic redeeming factor: Destroy the capsuleers. This is what they intend, and I think it's brilliant. Nothing to do with exterminating humanity at all. In fact, trying to do them a favour.

[Ken]

Nothing to do with exterminating humanity at all. In fact, trying to do them a favour.

I have been creeping closer and closer to this conclusion for a few weeks.

Great and necessary thread, Seri.

I'll say this much.  I don't think all of the abductees were willing (and you make a clear case for on-the-ground resistence), but I'm more inclined to imagine a sizable portion of them did get on the dropships at least during those early raids.  The idea that the Sansha might have infiltrated colonies years or decades in advance and subtlely (or perhaps not so subtlely) manipulated their populations into adopting a Heaven's Gate style belief that salvation was coming is more terrifying than any mind control ray or outright overpowering of throngs of people.

[Seriphyn]

That was one of my alternative beliefs regarding the lack of resistance. Subtle manipulation of the populations...in FACT...

In defence of the willing victims story...they may have very well gone onto the dropships because they have been told they will be serving the cause to defeat the capsuleers. This can be combined with a long term manipulation and infiltration of such worlds and colonies beforehand. Big maybe, however...considering even newborns and elderly were taken too...some of those elderly may be veterans of the Nation-Empires War and thus despise Sansha...but this may be one explanation.

[Ken]

* Ken high-fives Seriphyn.

[Ghost Hunter]

Let it be known I consider this entire topic a "ur doing it wrong" topic, but I will nonetheless attempt to answer what Seriphyn has said.

This has caused some stumblingblocks in-character within RP, so I think it needs to be brought up. Some Sansha RPers believe that the victims of the abductions were willing. I'm not one to go "ur doin it wrong" hardly ever, but I would like to encourage that this thought is not universalized. 2 million people are NOT going to just get up and walk to the dropships willingly, like "Oh, hey, let's abandon our perfectly content lives and become mindless clones". HOWEVER, out of 2 million people, you WILL get the crazy Gallentean teenager or other fanatics (hell, there ARE sympathizers, as per Caldari State dealing with them) that will willingly send themselves to the dropships. These are, however, not going to be the majority. In a world like EVE, something crazy like "mind control ray beams" is very likely. Not to mention there is ground side resistance, a la...

We are painfully aware that those who go into the dropships willingly may very well be a small minority. We have utilized the lack of information in this regard in order to further our moral image, however. There are those of us who wish the universe was so grim dark that people do in fact willingly go on the transports, and there are the obvious systematic harvester borg types. I make it a point of emphasizing willing abductees because it adds a moral dynamic to my faction that clouds the "absolute evil" EVERYONE insists on making us. There has not been a definite conclusion to either method, hence both are valid and in use by us.

In regards to mindless clones, there is some serious dispute over this. But this is what they are. As per the Sansha's Nation chron, it is stated that "Sansha’s dream was that these zombie-like creatures could be used as soldiers and guards, thus freeing humans to pursue more peaceful and productive lifestyles". These are True Slaves. From the Stain landmark description it states that "Stations hanging in space that are unnaturally quiet, the passive stares of the denizens sending a chill down even the hardiest of spines."

Then we have True Citizens, like Citizen Astur, who are the humans that pursue such "peaceful and productive lifestyles". I think some thought them to be a player invention, but this is not so...from the Esoteria regional description...

You really should consider whose perspective that information is being written from.

It may very well be true that the first generations of True Slaves were mindless automation, but this Nation is very different from the one a century ago. The technology has improved, the morals and ethics have changed, and Master Kuvakei is approaching this subject from an entirely different angle now. Trying to extrapolate the Nation's motivations a century ago, to what it is doing now, would be a horribly incorrect way to go about it.

As such, and willing victims for Sansha's Nation would likely become True Citizens if they have an affinity for creativity. Otherwise, they become mindless clones. In regards to supposed "lack of resistance", there is a clue if one goes on SiSi and looks through Encounters on their journal...

...
What I have highlighted is a clue as to what this apparent willing victim business is about. Sansha's Nation are marketed as the big bad monster that will eat your brains; they have been kidnapping people from unnotable deadspace colonies since their original defeat (as per mission briefings), just now they have upped their game. Considering that...

How or why people are designated to being a True Slave or a True Citizen is an unknown process, even for me. However, willingly or not, people are fitted to the role they are best suited for. The Burning Life makes a point of emphasizing how brains can be sectioned off to allow only creative thoughts, but no mathematical capabilities, and so on.

A person does not have to be 'willing' to become a True Citizen. The implants only exert control, the indoctrination is what makes them Nation's forever.

The abductees are being taken, implanted, and being cloned and recloned (as per Haeldone Dorgiers comment). "Willing victims" seems very unlikely.

It would be prudent to consider the extreme mental shift people go through when empowered by Nation's technologies. A promise to return again and again leads one to never fear death, ala Capsuleers. There is, barring evidence, no painful or some horrifying process people undergo every time they are recloned as if it was some b-rated scifi horror movie (hello Event Horizon).

The target of these attacks are the capsuleers. The abductions were merely a way to amass a large enough force to confront the capsuleers and enact his revenge.

As such, enacting utopia seems to have very little to do with it. In THIS way, I feel that Sansha's Nation has a fantastic redeeming factor: Destroy the capsuleers. This is what they intend, and I think it's brilliant. Nothing to do with exterminating humanity at all. In fact, trying to do them a favour.

How on earth can it be considered revenge when the Capsuleers didn't exist during Nation's fall? (The player types, not the PF types)

The Nation has and never will be about exterminating humanity, not so long as the original Sansha Kuvakei controls it. Exterminating humanity is the Equilibrium of Mankind's gimmick. Kuvakei earnestly believes himself to be a prophet/messiah/savior and bringer of a Promised Land (see the chronicle and the Revenant's quote). The greatest threat to his utopia for humanity is the Capsuleers, a virulent plague of uncontrolled weapons who are a step away from destroying all life in the galaxy if their interfaces allowed them to.

I consider revenge an unlikely motivation. Much like gardening, the Nation is attempting to remove unwanted weeds and invasive plants from its perfect eden. Revenge would be Kuvakei unleashing Kyonoke on the Amarrians for their betrayal a century ago.

[Ken]

I will nonetheless attempt to answer what Seriphyn has said.

Thank you.  Responses were very informative.

How on earth can it be considered revenge when the Capsuleers didn't exist during Nation's fall? (The player types, not the PF types)

One thought: they have been blowing up his stuff for seven and a half years or so.

[Akrasjel Lanate]

But you can't defeat capsuleers just like that, they rather should focus first on the stations with cloning filicitys, and after destroying some of them then start fighting directly with us.

[Ken]

But you can't defeat capsuleers just like that, they rather should focus first on the stations with cloning filicitys, and after destroying some of them then start fighting directly with us.

[speculation]Later even more effective incursions will suspense station services like cloning bays, resulting in the use of "soft copy" backup clones with attendant skill point loss (and possible retconning of the PF).  This mechanic will also provide a market for new skill training accelerator boosters and/or one-time skill point purchasing.[/speculation]  No... no, that would be horrific. 

[Ghost Hunter]

But you can't defeat capsuleers just like that, they rather should focus first on the stations with cloning filicitys, and after destroying some of them then start fighting directly with us.

Destroying the moral of the enemy is one of the steps one has to take against Capsuleers.

Invading their perceived "sanctums" and posing a serious, credible threat can damage their mentality quite heavily.

Imagine how freighter carebears will feel getting killed by Sansha gate camps, for instance.

[Julianus Soter]

I FC'ed a fleet on a Sisi.

"Thought to have been a member of Sansha’s Nation for many decades, the individual who identifies as “Slave 32152” is known for her unwavering commitment to Sansha’s cause. Few are indoctrinated to the same degree as her, and it was usually her and not Citizen Astur (the main Nation propagandist) who caught the imagination of supporters and news media alike."

[Arvo Katsuya]

Soter, you do realize those are all told in the form of the ISHAEKA reports, right? You know... CONCORD's perspective? At the bottom of all those flavor texts?

[Julianus Soter]

It wasn't an Ishaeka release.

Also, I'm not sure what you want me to 'realize', I just copy-pasted the flavor text. I assume the perspective is that of the capsuleers, IE, the ship computer preparing a intelligence dossier for your viewing pleasure.

[Bong-cha Jones]

The abductions were merely a way to amass a large enough force to confront the capsuleers and enact his revenge.

This is something that I just mentioned IC a few minutes ago, but I thought I'd ask here.  Do we have any numbers on how many Sansha ships have been destroyed in these raids?  I haven't been following it as closely as many of you, but I'm under the impression that they've lost quite a few carriers and even more battleships.  I'd think the crew losses (not to mention dropship/infantry losses) would go a long ways towards offsetting any gains they've made in the manpower department.

Which is to say:  I'm not sure they're after numbers.

[Louella Dougans]

Nation knows things™ about cloning and using stored brain patterns, (as seen in the pro-nation branch of the Amarr epic arc).

This suggests to me, that crew losses are trivial to Nation, because they are all synthetic people. And are replaced as easily as ships are.

Which then leads on to asking what it is that they are after? New genes and talents and personalities for their resource pool? After 100 years, are Nations stored personalities in need of fresh input to mould Nation into an entity for the modern age?

[Chell Charon]

Might be just that making a True Slave is easy that way. Getting a True Citizens might be the challenge.