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Author Topic: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?  (Read 6252 times)

Kazzzi

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #15 on: 03 Nov 2010, 19:11 »

In all seriousness, I do not think that if all you got for philosophy is NRDS it is likely to last in the long-term either.
You would be surprised. Impressionable newbies are easily brainwashed into practically worshiping this acronym. If people chant 'NRDS is innocent pure and good, NBSI is dirty evil pirate bad!' enough times, they will listen. It kinda creeps me out a lil.
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Casiella

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #16 on: 03 Nov 2010, 21:03 »

Even if they think that, when two NRDS entities collide, they're not going to be friends just because they both shoot defined groups of people in the face. As we've seen, they might well be shooting each OTHER in the face.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #17 on: 03 Nov 2010, 22:51 »

NRDS formulated on an in-character basis is often rife with misconceptions and difficult-to-defend doctrines.

For instance. That blowing up a capsuleer's ship, unprovoked, is an unethical act. Indeed, they lable it 'piracy', a word with very negative connotations in english. This extends from out of character perceptions regarding 'fair play'. But in-character, in the world of New Eden, what is the truth? Almost every single capsuleer wields more power with their pinky than most planetary governors. And they use this to a vast assortment of ends, including destruction, subterfuge, monopolization, and outright war on humanity (coughSanshaEOMcough).

A capsuleer pilot navigating space that has no CONCORD safeguards or controls on their behavior must be viewed with suspicion at all times. Why are they there? What will they do? Why haven't they made any effort in establishing contact with corporations or organizations there already, to ensure no misunderstanding occurs?

Most often, these capsuleers fly heavily armed battleships, capable of blowing asteroid colonies to bits, or undermining an industrial operation for a constellation by jumpportaling in a BOPs squad.

An organization with a vested interest or claim to that region of space will naturally attempt to enforce air traffic control. Those that don't abide by the rules and authority of that control will be removed, forcibly.

Some folks call that piracy. I don't.

What defines piracy, then?

Piracy is any act that attempts to gain monetary worth directly from 'illegal', often violent and destructive, acts between spaceships. Piracy, then, is an act of intent, not of circumstance. Just because a military corporation makes a billion isk from selling valuable modules or blueprints from a kill, does not mean it is piracy. It is if they targeted said vessel, and destroyed it in defiance of local authority or regulations, in many cases CONCORD, to gain said money, then yes, it is. Piracy isn't inherently unethical. It is a business model.

A pirate extracts value from acting upon other capsuleers through military force. This is viewed as 'unethical' because it breaks laws that Capsuleers, in many cases, aren't bound by anyway. the only remaining standard for determining legality is CONCORD, an organization with very limited credence within or outside of highsec. The true unethical acts, such as injustice against human beings in general, run rampant. What is the meaning in discussing capsuleer-capsuleer ethics in such a situation?

Regardless, it is clear, very few actual PVP encounters are piracy, as no monetary value is gained or sought during the engagement.

On to the nature of a strict, nearly antagonistic NRDS perspective: In a universe where a finite set of powerful actors influence each other through economic and military force, ethics dissolves into an explanation of game theory. A capsuleer is much more than a ship or a person, he is an entire nation, equal in stature to all other capsuleers, and within a vast universe of resources, technology, and social structures. Ethics applies to him only as much as he impacts the individual human being, through his actions. If he destroys a capsuleer combat vessel, or even an industrial ore-cruncher, the ethics of the action will be determined from the outcomes of that engagement. Does it prevent injustice? Does it correct a wrong?

The moral spectrum of capsuleer events, therefore, can only be understood fully in an in-character perspective, from the interaction of capsuleers with the greater body of humanity. An out of character perspective on player-player interaction will result only in frustration and incoherency. We, the players are playing a game. There is no real 'moral law' within a game's physics, the mechanics of that universe, as all that is permissible shall happen. Indeed, because it is a game, there only appreciable product of the game is individual enjoyment. What is expended or lost in the effort to gain that enjoyment are up to the players themselves.

The only exception may be actions that result in GM action, such as account theft and egregious acts. Therefore, it is clear that if people intend to generate a "moral playstyle" from an out of character perspective, their only focus should be on following the EULA and the game mechanics. All other things are permissible, as stated already.

Is there perhaps one last way to come up with a 'moral NRDS' policy from an in-character perspective? Some suggest that any hostile act between capsuleers is unethical, due to the crews on the ships involved. In most cases, those crews are there voluntarily, and have participated in the combat action as aides to the capsuleer. They are the soldiers, and the capsuleer is the general. The crew cannot be held culpable, but they can be killed, as enemy combatants on the field of battle.

In all cases, nature abhors a vacuum. This includes situations of authority and power. In the case of a Vexor destroying a foolish Retriever mining Omber in Rancer, those with the might and military assets within the system will exert their control and influence, de facto. De Jure, the system itself is lowsec, as the capsuleer should be aware. Lowsec is ME2 Omega. in the absence of serious legal authority, capsuleers make their own laws within the confines of the system, and indeed, they must, for their own safety and of their corporation or alliance.

A capsuleer entering lowsec must understand this, if they intend to stake a claim to lowsec resources and trade routes.

Therefore, we've addressed both the IC and OOC routes to arriving at a strict moralist interpretation of NRDS military doctrine. The only remaining argument is IC and OOC pragmatism. And that of course depends on a case by case basis.


« Last Edit: 03 Nov 2010, 23:03 by Julianus Soter »
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Elsebeth Rhiannon

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #18 on: 05 Nov 2010, 06:40 »

In all seriousness, I do not think that if all you got for philosophy is NRDS it is likely to last in the long-term either.
You would be surprised. Impressionable newbies are easily brainwashed into practically worshiping this acronym. If people chant 'NRDS is innocent pure and good, NBSI is dirty evil pirate bad!' enough times, they will listen. It kinda creeps me out a lil.
Hmh, I guess if your MO is to brainwash a new impressionable newbies every time the older ones wonder off, you could keep that going a long time. I'll take my statement down a notch to "if all I had for my IC philosophy was NRDS, I cannot see how I could have managed to keep Gradient going as long as we have".
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #19 on: 05 Nov 2010, 09:36 »

Having been in NRDS and NBSI organizations, I can say that I find NRDS to be much more difficult to run an effective PvP fleet with, let alone a whole organization on.
That said, I can imagine one situation in which it WOULD be effective: When you as a (probably RP) organization have a clearly defined enemy who is more than willing to present itself to keep you and your corpmates busy (best if the said enemy is still somewhat adaptive and/or fluidl, to prevent engagements from becoming stale and repetative). As soon as you start trying to fight far more nebulous targets - "Pirates", "reds", however you want to call them, NRDS becoms much more difficult to enforce effectively.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #20 on: 05 Nov 2010, 12:58 »

Having been in NRDS and NBSI organizations, I can say that I find NRDS to be much more difficult to run an effective PvP fleet with, let alone a whole organization on.
I agree that effective NRDS requires a lot of work in diplomacy and setting standings, and it requires a somewhat clear definition on who will be redded, so that "field calls" by experienced FCs or diplomats in fleets can sometimes be made. (In addition to a RoE that allows retaliation against neutrals, of course.) We have been lucky so far having nutcases who actually enjoy that diplomacy, who put ridiculous hours into maintaining our red list. Without such nutcases and a clear IC reason for why to do it, I don't think it would be doable for long.
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Saxon Hawke

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #21 on: 05 Nov 2010, 15:47 »

I agree that effective NRDS requires a lot of work in diplomacy and setting standings, and it requires a somewhat clear definition on who will be redded, so that "field calls" by experienced FCs or diplomats in fleets can sometimes be made. (In addition to a RoE that allows retaliation against neutrals, of course.) We have been lucky so far having nutcases who actually enjoy that diplomacy, who put ridiculous hours into maintaining our red list. Without such nutcases and a clear IC reason for why to do it, I don't think it would be doable for long.

This is pretty much the situation the ILF is in. We have a VERY long "red" list and an ROE that defines what kinds of behavior on the part of neutrals allows our pilots to engage. I also have a full time diplomat and two pilots who do it in addition to other duties.

So far, it's made NRDS doable for us. It does restrict combat operations, however, and that is why you will see a number of fomer ILF combat pilots running around in more PVP-centric corps these days. I don't begrudge them, but at the same time, I'm not going to change our ROE to allow more pew-pew when it doesn't go with the nature of what I've built the ILF to be.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #22 on: 06 Nov 2010, 04:07 »

Quote
So far, it's made NRDS doable for us. It does restrict combat operations, however, and that is why you will see a number of fomer ILF combat pilots running around in more PVP-centric corps these days. I don't begrudge them, but at the same time, I'm not going to change our ROE to allow more pew-pew when it doesn't go with the nature of what I've built the ILF to be.
Yea, same for me. Also, I have figured out that in the long-term, we do not need to retain those people who prioritize pewpew over other stuff so much that not being allowed to shoot anything that moves, to be successful in our own goals. Some of them I'd have liked to keep, but they are not really our "core target audience", so we can do without.
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Bong-cha Jones

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #23 on: 06 Nov 2010, 06:30 »

My limited experience running an NRDS corp (as if 2-3 people counts) is that the key is being willing to aggressively pursue standings when needed.  Be clear about what gets someone redded and be willing to back it up with standings changes and, if appropriate, crazy space violence.  I've been carebearing pretty intensively lately, so the last part I've managed to avoid for now.

Nice to see that that seems to hold true for large, successful NRDS organizations; makes me feel like I'm taking the right tack.
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Saxon Hawke

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #24 on: 06 Nov 2010, 12:06 »

Simon, where did your signature text come from? And is there more?
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Bong-cha Jones

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #25 on: 06 Nov 2010, 23:43 »

Um, it's from something I'm writing.  There is more... I'm working on a bit of Intaki-written scifi for NaNoWriMo; not sure if I'll manage to hit the word count needed for that.
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Borza

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #26 on: 10 Nov 2010, 08:29 »

Posted by Codo in another IGS thread:
Quote
NRDS means you do not want to kill the innocent. NBSI means you dont care if you kill the innocent. This is one of the most fundamental standpoints one can take in this universe, either you chose to be responsible and only kill those you view your enemies (NRDS), or you are willing to kill anyone except those you view as your friends in order to accomplish your goal (NBSI). I think many need to realize this, that NRDS and NBSI are very fundamental philosophical and moral choises.

Sure, those that practise NRDS may have different goals, but I beg to differ that their goals are FUNDAMENTALLY different. Because the NRDS groups are based on having a conscience those differences can be overcome, with time, and effort. NRDS will always be seen as a more humanitarian and selfless approach than NBSI, and this is where the truly NRDS groups have something in common. When you take the step over to NBSI, you also take the step over to the side where it no longer matters to you if neutrals are killed. New Eden is a big place, and you should do wisely to take responsibility for your actions.

When you no longer care for the independent neutral capsuleer of New Eden, that is when you are no longer innocent yourself. You really should stop taking the killing of others so lightly. Im going to make it simple: Do you care (NRDS)? Or not (NBSI)? Its nothing less than "good or evil".

See to me this just sounds more and more like the many non-RPers you hear getting upset at losing their ship and shinies to pirates and griefers.
It seems like a rather unrealistic, almost ludicrous, IC standpoint to consider e.g. -EM- and CVA to be more similar to each other than -EM- and any NBSI corp in the TLF.
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Jade Constantine

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #27 on: 10 Nov 2010, 10:52 »

First I will say I am glad that the player involved has tried this avenue. From an ooc perspective I think it’s good for the game of Eve to have bold political theories advanced and new ideas circling New Eden. The game is immeasurably weaker when it’s just a landscape of identikit NBSI entities doing their thing in a cluster-wide game of capture the flag (in space).

To the practicality of “total NRDS coalition” in real terms ... it’s barking.

NRDS is a ROE not a political philosophy really. The question is what you use that ROE for. I think this particular initiative would probably have made more sense as an extreme anti-pirate coalition that stood for making any pirate groups hostile (which of course would end up making NBSI groups hostile) and that’s all well and good. Their problem would come in making groups that were neutral but had “pirate” or “nsbi” groups neutral or + hostile as well. Would leave them in a very small group with the rest of the galaxy red and more enemies than SF has ... but it’s valid for all that.

That said, my own personal theory is that the “total NRDS coalition” is a CVA psyops front organization for recruiting like-minded groups to a potential reconquest of Providence at some point. Their rhetoric is similar and the object --- a bunch of NRDS ROE entities sharing a common standings list is very similar to the old Providence red list. And Cogo certainly has the rep for this kind of thing.

Obviously everyone else here has pointed out the flaws with ideologically-opposed RP entities with each other red cooperating for reasons of pure NRDS ROE favour.

We might test it by applying for membership with the proviso we won’t change any of our standings to negative on external pressure and asking the NCA coalition leaders to confirm that they reject the practise of slavery and Amarrian nationalist imperialism on the frontier (and see how far that goes.)
But I say again. I’m glad he’s doing this. It’s interesting and I think there is a lot of room for productive debate and discussion on rules of engagement and general 0.0 philosophies in eve. For too long it’s been accepted that NBSI is the only way to do things, and not enough public discussion of the implications of that ROE into the kind of cultures and social structures being established in 0.0

The real discussion here though is standings enclosurism vs independent freespace. And as always the well-meaning police guards vs the independent anarchist traders makes it interesting for the Star Fraction.

Also, I totally agree with Borza's comments on the combat effectiveness of NRDS for small organizations. Its why the Star Fraction has consistently punched above our weight for years. Under NRDS you know your entire memberbase of combat pilots are focused on the real enemies. I've lost count of the times we've watched a neutral gang in 0.0 fly past our ambush into a red gang and seen the red's weaken themselves on the neutrals - only for us to swoop in and butcher the reds.

I love the surgical beauty of a black ops hotdrop that triggers 10 bombers arriving and murdering the single red battleship in a group of neutral miners, leaving the rest unharmed and wondering what the heck happened there.

In their minds they imagine the victim must have "done something" to deserve it. And in making a foe of the Star Fraction they did.

NRDS gives us discretion and nuance in the fighting of wars. Means we can be the heroic guerilla fighters that kill the oppressive standing garrison and spare the peasants. Maybe we sow a little bit of rebellious doubt in the minds of those witnessing these things? Who knows, we certainly get our share of recruits from downtrodden renter outfits with pilots heartily sick of tugging their forelock when the ruling coalition fleets pass.



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Elsebeth Rhiannon

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #28 on: 11 Nov 2010, 04:17 »

It seems like a rather unrealistic, almost ludicrous, IC standpoint to consider e.g. -EM- and CVA to be more similar to each other than -EM- and any NBSI corp in the TLF.
I don't know about that. Most EM and CVA themselves (including me IC) would obviously disagree, but in some things we are similar (and it can be argued that U'K and CVA are even more so), and someone ICly paying attention to those things rather than the national politics might be quite believable. Not what rocks my boat RP-wise, but I'd not call it unrealistic or ludicrous really.
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Rodj Blake

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Re: Total NRDS Coalition [NCA] ?
« Reply #29 on: 11 Nov 2010, 04:45 »

NRDS is a method (maybe even a philosophy), but not an objective.

If two people have conflicting objectives, then there will be friction between them even if they use similar methods to achieve their aims.

Asking people to co-operate with each other simply because they're all NRDS is like saying that the USA should ally itself with Iran because they both teach The Art of War at their military academies.
« Last Edit: 11 Nov 2010, 04:48 by Rodj Blake »
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