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[Steffanie Saissore]

I have been looking at getting into pvp and have gotten some pointers and such from some veterans, but at the end of the day, the whole "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" attitude, while understandable, is very frustrating for me.  To put it another way, I absolutely loathe frigates.  I understand their value and purpose, but I prefer and have focused more time and effort in cruiser and battlecruiser piloting and such that relearning how to fly a frigate bothers me.

The other issue is, given the timing of when I'm on, I end up doing a whole lot of solo missioning and this gets boring.  Yes, I can chat with people in various channels as I go about doing missions, but I've been stuck on l3 missions for two months now because I cannot afford to lose a Megathron or other BS.  I've just finished putting together the fittings on the 'thron that was given as a gift; trying to insure it, will drop my wallet by 50% meaning that I wouldn't be able to even afford to fly my Brutix.

I understand that part of the game is to hurt the other person's wallet, but this in turn gives rise to many people who aren't willing to risk their shiny new ships.  I've been playing MMOs now for just over 10 years, and the one thing that I've noticed, regardless of the setting/system/mechanics, I always seem to have a hard time making money in the games I play.  I play to have fun, do the quests, and socialize. I typically will have enough money to get by and stuff, but even in the three months I've been playing EVE, I have never had enough money to both buy, fit, and afford to lose a battleship; this could suddenly change if and when I get around to doing l4.

As for the high sec/low sec...in the early days, I had thought that the missioning progression would eventually make players go down into low sec; and there are some missions in high sec that have a destination in low sec, but there is no actual 'natural' progression to move players from high to low in that regard.  Also, given the one experience I've had (take mission, go low sec, finish mission, get ganked), right now, I'm less inclined now more than before of even going to low sec.

I know this might sound a little immersion breaking and not be in the spirit of EVE, but if CCP really wanted people to do more stuff in low sec, I would seriously recommend the following: take a feature from the pve/rp servers from WoW.  Treat low sec as contested territory, but if a person isn't flagged for pvp (in this case, their safety is green) then they cannot be engaged and nor can they engage other players.  Let players decide if they want to actually do pvp in low sec instead of using the whole 'CONCORD will stomp your ass if you do' protection of high sec.  And one thing, as I look back at my pvp'ing in WoW...I flagged for pvp more readily in contested areas when I had the choice; if I came into an area that was being attacked by the Horde (yes, I was and forever will be an Alliance player) and I wasn't on a low level toon, I'd flag myself and help out the other Alliance players out.  So, that would be my suggestion about how to transition people from high to low sec.

I guess it would also help if there were more unique or better rewards for doing things in low sec than high or null...from what I'm understanding, I can in theory stay in high sec and more or less get similar rewards from missions as I would from low sec...might be faster in low sec, but I don't risk getting jumped while salvaging after the fact. And from what it sounds like, null sec is almost safer to fly than low sec? Again, I would like to think that the ability to choose to do pvp in low sec might help move some players from high to low and potentially increase the pvp action there as people have the option and aren't stressing out all the time worrying that the gate they're heading to isn't being camped.  Null sec, to me sounds like a place where if you go, you'd be flagged for pvp whether you like it or not, but then you can increase the rewards to make the risk worth the effort.

[Lyn Farel]

So you're saying "I want to pvp in what are the most expensive ships in the game, but I don't want to have to afford them?"

Ignore everything I said, then. I personally love frigate and interceptor pvp. It's my favorite. Despite having a 10 year old character with the skills and wallet to fly anything (well, no capital ship skills, but that's because I simply don't care about flying cap ships). I'll pvp in cruisers if it's needed, or BC or BS, HACS or Recons, but I really don't care for the combat as much. Trundle in, fire up my mods, wait to see if my ship will pop before the other person's ship. The higher price of the ships maybe gives the combat a little wallet-risking frisson, but it's nothing compared to (in my mind) the thrill of screaming into combat in something like a T2-fitted Breacher and having it all come down to split-second tactical decisions. But that's just me.

I honestly don't know how to answer your question, then. It sounds like our mutual experience of combat, what we enjoy the most about it, is simply too alien from one another. I could suggest "just fight on Sisi", but I suspect you want your fights to mean something. I guess all I can say to you, and I say it without an ounce of snark or ill-will, is "Good luck, I'd hate to be in your position."

I'm mostly a solo pvper, or small gang warfare player. I have never liked fleet fights above 5v5 or 10v10 since it's mostly an overview exercise as long as you are not FC or scout. So what I prefer is frigate or cruiser pvp. The rest, I just coped with it when it was needed. I had a blast with dangerous capital warfare at times but that's it (it's just the mixture of power and vulnerability you feel when flying those).

But no, I am not saying that I want to fly expensive stuff and not afford it, I am saying that the farming mechanics are borked and not fun for most pvpers. It's like a chore everytime you have to make money to buy your next ships. It makes one reluctant to go pvp since at every moment you think "if I lose that ship, it's x more hours of stupid farm". And if I lose the pod, it's drama (30+ M bare min, and if with implants, it's more than 100M, or even more than half a million if low grade slave set).

[Shiori]

I typically will have enough money to get by and stuff, but even in the three months I've been playing EVE, I have never had enough money to both buy, fit, and afford to lose a battleship; this could suddenly change if and when I get around to doing l4.

It's pretty rough for many people to learn the game, develop a PvP habit, and fund it in your first few months. Getting to L4s will actually help a lot. While the money isn't stellar, it's reliable cash and a lazy evening spent grinding will fund a nice little pile of ships.

Can you put your finger on why you dislike flying frigate hulls?

[Steffanie Saissore]

Not sure really why I dislike the frigate so much...I think partly I like batteries of guns and therefore prefer the firepower of the cruiser and battlecruiser to the frigate; they aren't as fast, but they're still fast ships; that and at the end of the day, I like having range and thus prefer medium rails.

Also, I think I don't quite have the reaction time (at least not at the moment) to react to the speed that frigate combat seems to take place at.

[Lyn Farel]

Frigates are the best way to learn pvp, because they are precisely one of the ships the hardest to pilot. They are fast and agile, and everything takes 10 times less to do in a frigate and asks for 10 times quicker actions than everything else, especially fast frigates and interceptors.

They ask for a lot of care when orbiting, keeping at range, or whatever. And the slightest mistake can be deadly.

[Steffanie Saissore]

Oh, I plan on using frigates when I start looking at pvp more seriously...mainly because the expense is not nearly as bad as any other hull. But it is still an expense that is far more expensive in this game than any other MMO I've played; in others your wallet got hurt repairing gear after pvp battles, but you never really had to go out and completely replace weapon, armor, and other gear if you lost a fight, nor did you have to pay for the resurrection.

[Shiori]

The up side is that while your losses will feel crippling, it'll make victory all the sweeter, and your heart beat faster when you risk a ship.

The most important thing early on is finding some people to fly with, who can kick you across your initial worries, provide you with practical advice, and help you get your first few victories. Once you get your first taste of pod juice, chances are you won't want to go back.

This is turning into a rather long digression - should maybe be split off the main thread?

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

But no, I am not saying that I want to fly expensive stuff and not afford it, I am saying that the farming mechanics are borked and not fun for most pvpers. It's like a chore everytime you have to make money to buy your next ships. It makes one reluctant to go pvp since at every moment you think "if I lose that ship, it's x more hours of stupid farm". And if I lose the pod, it's drama (30+ M bare min, and if with implants, it's more than 100M, or even more than half a million if low grade slave set).

Why is it (and I'm asking in all seriousness here) that you can't just get your pvp fix on SiSi, then?

In my own opinion, the fact that our ships/implants/clones do have a real cost (in isk and time and effort) is a big part of what makes the game fun for me. I'm not a gambler, in the sense that I'm not the sort of person that likes to go to Vegas and play craps, but the fact that both I and my opponent are staking something on the fight we're about to get into is a part of why I like pvp.

There's a philosophy you see in other MMOs around pvp, where everyone fits out with absolutely the best gear they can. This is reasonable, since you never lose this gear if you lose a fight. Some MMOs will have the gear degrade, but it's always cheap and easy to get it repaired. I like the aspect of Eve where you lose your ship/mods if you lose the fight. It turns things, for me, into more of a complex set of trade-offs: What are my objectives? What am I trying to accomplish this month? Will I gain more of a psychological edge if I risk higher-isk ships to gain higher-value kills, or will it be more cost-effective for me to fly lower value ships and go after my enemy's low-hanging fruit?

Again, this is just me. I have no idea why you choose to pvp, and what makes pvp fun for you.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Pyre have encouraged me to make the absolute most out of a T1 frigate that I possibly can. My Kestrel fit is around 9mil isk - how much can I get done in 9mil worth of hull and modules and ammo?

As my skills got better I could fit more demanding modules, upgrade to T2 modules and so on. The small shield extender became a medium. The launchers become T2. Now I can fit an MWD or an AB, changing my engagement envelope.

I think that area is maxxed out now, though. So where do the additional % points come from? Flying in wolfpacks. Maximising cooperation and efficiency. It's more about how I play. That's where the fun comes from, for me.

[Lyn Farel]

Why is it (and I'm asking in all seriousness here) that you can't just get your pvp fix on SiSi, then?

Why people can't get their pvp on SiSi, then ? Why would it be different for me ?

In my own opinion, the fact that our ships/implants/clones do have a real cost (in isk and time and effort) is a big part of what makes the game fun for me. I'm not a gambler, in the sense that I'm not the sort of person that likes to go to Vegas and play craps, but the fact that both I and my opponent are staking something on the fight we're about to get into is a part of why I like pvp.

There's a philosophy you see in other MMOs around pvp, where everyone fits out with absolutely the best gear they can. This is reasonable, since you never lose this gear if you lose a fight. Some MMOs will have the gear degrade, but it's always cheap and easy to get it repaired. I like the aspect of Eve where you lose your ship/mods if you lose the fight. It turns things, for me, into more of a complex set of trade-offs: What are my objectives? What am I trying to accomplish this month? Will I gain more of a psychological edge if I risk higher-isk ships to gain higher-value kills, or will it be more cost-effective for me to fly lower value ships and go after my enemy's low-hanging fruit?

Again, this is just me. I have no idea why you choose to pvp, and what makes pvp fun for you.

Don't make me say what I never said...

Eve chooses to make combat adrenaline filled and offers consequences for everything that you lose. That's one of the big selling points of the game. Fine.

With that in mind, it also comes at a cost : since your ships and stuff involves a certain amount of resources invested in them, it involves time spent gathering those resources. Don't make me believe that you enjoy your daily farm ? Well, if so, good for you, but you have to admit that not a lot of pvpers really enjoy farming their L4s, FW button orbiting, incursions, or whatever else they do to make money.

So, as I said, their direct farming mechanisms (aka mission running, mining, etc) are boring as hell. It's a bit sad for a so called pvp game no ? Especially when you need to farm and farm and farm to... pvp. More, having to do pve to make pvp is silly.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I have been looking at getting into pvp and have gotten some pointers and such from some veterans...

One thing you can do is find a corp that has a full or partial ship replacement program.  It's a huge advantage to be in a corp that offers one of these on corporate operations.

Of course, this means you're going to be using and losing those ships for the corp, but that's not a bad thing.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Lyn, I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

I agree with you that grinding isk to pay for pvp is boring. I get around that by choosing to pvp in cheap ships - I can say that I'm fortunate in that I prefer to pvp in cheap ships, but I'm certainly guided by the awareness that I can maximize the pvp I get for my isk grinding that way.

Here's what I mean: I run L4 missions for isk. I'm currently doing so in a MJD/T2 sentry drone Dominix. This lets me blitz through a L4 in 5-15 minutes (most of the time is travel time to acceleration gates). Ignoring loot and salvage (if I'm blitzing, I'll leave everything), I make a few million in bounties plus a few million for the mission, plus about 10 million in convertable LP. Say it adds up to 14 million. That's a well-appointed Breacher right there (including all the appropriate consumables, faction and T2 ammo, rigs, etc). If I spend an hour doing those missions, that's 6 Breachers. Or 4 nicely fit Stabbers (my pvp cruiser of choice). Or about 84 suicide tackler frigates.

If I spend a 4 hour game session looking for solo pvp in FW low sec, I may find enough fights to lose two of those well-appointed Breachers. Ditto for the Stabbers. If I'm flying suicide tackler for a small gang (not a role I normally fly, but I'm throwing it out there because it's an easy one for a new pvper to jump into) that's finding a lot of fights, I may lose half a dozen in that session. That means that my one hour of L4 grinding has funded three days of solo Breacher pvp (assuming I find the fights - finding solo fights is pretty hit or miss for me), two days of solo Stabber pvp, or two solid weeks of daily small gang pvp in suicide tacklers. Not including the value of any loot I get during that combat.

I hear what you're saying when you say you prefer to fight in high-value ships. Where I'm not understanding you is why you want to pvp in them. Are you just looking for "Wheeee! Solo BS fights!"? I've gotten far more solo BS fights on SiSi than I have on TQ. Are you interested in pvp in Eve because of the stakes? If that's the case, then I definitely don't understand your complaint. Are you just saying that you want the cost of everything to be lower in the game?

[Lyn Farel]

I said above that what I usually favored as a solo pvper were frigates or cruisers, either T1 or T2...