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[Casiella]

PF-wise, I understood that the Amarrians originated as an offshoot of the Catholic Church, sort of fundamentalist reformists. Not sure whether that meant Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. I don't myself recall any PF references to the Byzantines, at least not explicitly.

[Ghost Hunter]

Except, as Vik pointed out with his example of how the world views Americans and how Americans actually are, your preconceived notions are invalid, because they are brought with a particular bias that assumes that the people within an entity are homogenous, which is exactly what I was stating and your reply in no way addressed. I stated what I saw as an issue with your argument, you restated your argument without in any way addressing what I stated.

Good show.

Ignoring snarkiness, would you still find an Amarrian holder at a Gallente bar running around spinning her blouse over her head? I should though perhaps spend more time with the Amarr bloc. Upper class, snooty and that, if they'd spare the time to interact with Seriphyn. From a personal point of view, sure, people can RP however the hell they want, but I'd like to find some folk to be more immersed with.

If you check out this story here, this is an example of how you can worldbuild in the Federation, which has the biggest scope for it.

Any EVE culture + Gallente democracy = Original Federal setting

Bolded.

From where I'm sitting, considering if the Amarrians you are interacting with don't fit that criteria then you are most likely referring to the reclusive Amarr bloc. As an outsider, there is two distinct Amarrian RPers to me: The public wingwongs(liberals?) and the reclusive Amarr bloc (PIE, CVA[?], Graeyln's corp whose name escapes me, possibly KoTMC, etc). The question comes to mind, why would the group you just described as snooty want to interact with Seriphyn?

It is very much in the same vein as I am experiencing right now. At the end of the day, if you're an enemy you're not going to be treated to any preferred internal RP over their allies. Ergo, the real Amarrians you seem to be wanting you probably wont meet because it doesn't fit into their RP.

[GoGo Yubari]

PF-wise, I understood that the Amarrians originated as an offshoot of the Catholic Church, sort of fundamentalist reformists. Not sure whether that meant Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. I don't myself recall any PF references to the Byzantines, at least not explicitly.

I think the sources do suggest Roman Catholics, but it might not be explicit. Nor is there really anything in their culture to suggest Eastern Orthodoxy. However, their cultural origins were listed (in those faction descriptions located on the China site, which have never had equivalents on the main site) as somewhere in the Balkan region (where Islam and Eastern Orthodoxy dominate). Nevertheless, no discernable Orthodox influence to my eyes.

[Louella Dougans]

teh timeline mentions "the unified catholic church" which could mean almost anything.

[GoGo Yubari]

teh timeline mentions "the unified catholic church" which could mean almost anything.

It is a bit vague since it's just a term, but in this specific context I think the implication is quite clear. For the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches reunification is one of the big topics. The name simply suggests that the reunification happened. Now how all that played out... well, that is obviously very vague.

[The Cosmopolite]

I think the sources do suggest Roman Catholics, but it might not be explicit. Nor is there really anything in their culture to suggest Eastern Orthodoxy. However, their cultural origins were listed (in those faction descriptions located on the China site, which have never had equivalents on the main site) as somewhere in the Balkan region (where Islam and Eastern Orthodoxy dominate). Nevertheless, no discernable Orthodox influence to my eyes.

There are faint traces in my view but the 'Roman Catholic' linkage is just as faint.

Many people assume that the reference to a 'Unified Catholic Church' must mean a link to the Catholic Church that most people have heard of: that is, the Roman Catholic Church.

The problem is that almost all the traditional churches that traces themselves back to the apostles and Church fathers view themselves as 'catholic'. The word means 'universal'. It's not the special property of the Church of Rome.

Indeed, if you want to be strict about it, neither the term 'church' nor the term 'catholic' are exclusive to Christianity, although clearly they are very strongly associated with Christianity.

We also have to remember that the Amarr are not even based on the 'orthodox' (another term not exclusive to certain churches...) UCC - they're a splinter group of that august church (the name 'Conformists' suggests a splinter after a reform of the UCC they disagreed with.)

There is very little we can actually say about them.

My speculative inclination is that the UCC represents a great unification of the major Christian churches into one church at some point in the fictional history of the Earth and whatever space-faring polity/polities were on the Earth side of the EVE gate. But who knows what it looked like? Who knows what the Conformists led by Dano Gheinok believed? Who knows how thousands of years have warped what they believed into prevailing Amarr orthodoxy?

On the more general topic... I'm kind of agog. I could say a lot but I'm not sure it's wise at this stage.

Cos

[GoGo Yubari]

Like I wrote in the latter reply, I think the term unification has a specific, loaded meaning in reference to the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. While it might be a unification of all the various churches, it is at least if not only a unification of those two branches. It's really a big topic in the modern age for both of those churches. Whether it's those two or a a few more isn't really important. The point that is relevant is that the Amarrian religion is descended from the Christian faith.

Anyway, this is a huge tangent for this thread, I think.

[Silver Night]

[admin]Split this from this discussion[/admin]

[GoGo Yubari]

Thanks for the split, btw. Just want to add a little to my point.

I'm just saying that because the term unification has specific connotations to the modern reader in regards to the Catholic church, the implied meaning of the term "Unified Catholic Church" is pretty strong. Saying it means something else would akin to arguing over the meaning of the term "unified Germany" during the Cold War. Sure, there are other areas of Germany that could be unified to either West Germany or East Germany to produce a "unified Germany", but it is pretty evident that what would be meant is indeed a reunification of the East and West.

[The Cosmopolite]

An important distinction must be made I feel.

There is a difference between the cultural references drawn on by the writers of the EVE background and the cultural influences that in IC fact bear on various factions.

I know we all know this but I thought it was as well to explicitly state this as it is important in any discussion of the Amarr Empire and its culture (as with others).

You see, it's my view that, for instance, the creation of the imperial setup of the Amarr, in background development terms, draws on both the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire to achieve a rather unique and interesting imperial polity. But that's a totally different thing to saying that in IC fact those polities had an influence on the Amarr Empire. They pretty clearly didn't except at the most tenuous of removes in time.

Cos

PS. I'm going to add that there's a goodly dollop of Latin church doctrine in there as well.

PPS. I know this ties back to the original thread but in a similar way, for instance, I think the Caldari megacorporations are based on the Japanese Zaibatsu/Keiretsu in many ways and I think they are the main inspiration when push comes to shove. They are certainly much closer in structure and ethos to Zaibatsu/Keiretsu than to Western multinationals. But that doesn't mean to say they are in all ways like that or that the Caldari are the Japanese in space.

[The Cosmopolite]

I'm just saying that because the term unification has specific connotations to the modern reader in regards to the Catholic church, the implied meaning of the term "Unified Catholic Church" is pretty strong.

I am inclined to agree. It is the path of least resistance speculatively.

Cos

[Casiella]

And while it has implications for the current Amarrian faith, it couldn't be a straight line derivation any more than schisms and unification of Israel (e.g. split into a 10 tribe and 2 tribe nation) means that derived religions today look similar. Abraham would not recognize modern Judaism, Christianity, or Islam today were he with us, despite the fact that those three faith traditions all claim him as their antecedent.

[Silver Night]

...

There is a difference between the cultural references drawn on by the writers of the EVE background and the cultural influences that in IC fact bear on various factions.

...

You see, it's my view that, for instance, the creation of the imperial setup of the Amarr, in background development terms, draws on both the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire to achieve a rather unique and interesting imperial polity. But that's a totally different thing to to saying that in IC fact those polities had an influence on the Amarr Empire. They pretty clearly didn't except at the most tenuous of removes in time.

I think everyone knowing this, and everyone managing to always remember it (I know I sometimes don't) are different things. I think it's an excellent general point when considering cultures in Eve in general, and I wanted to quote it for emphasis.

[GoGo Yubari]

An important distinction must be made I feel.

There is a difference between the cultural references drawn on by the writers of the EVE background and the cultural influences that in IC fact bear on various factions.

I know we all know this but I thought it was as well to explicitly state this as it is important in any discussion of the Amarr Empire and its culture (as with others).

Good point indeed.

You see, it's my view that, for instance, the creation of the imperial setup of the Amarr, in background development terms, draws on both the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire to achieve a rather unique and interesting imperial polity. But that's a totally different thing to saying that in IC fact those polities had an influence on the Amarr Empire. They pretty clearly didn't except at the most tenuous of removes in time.

Non-existential IC connections notwithstanding, I'm still not seeing very big influences from the HRE or Byzantines - except in the same sense that they are indeed empires (though the HRE arguably was not so much as the old saying goes). Yes, there is an electorate system which is very mildly similar (in just the fact that there is actually an electorate), but otherwise not so much. For Byzantium... well, it was an empire where Christianity had a center place, which is very mildly analogous to the Amarr Empire and its central faith. As far as I see it, the similarities end there.

I'm just saying that if people say that X is inspired by Y, I'm expecting to see hard evidence. Why is this important? If you can establish a link (whether it is IC or just meta/designer level) we can infer more incisively into a lot of other things. If not, we should be actively discouraged from making needless comparisons. Otherwise I'll just claim that the designer level intent with the Amarr Empire was to make a connection to the American southern states and their slavery. Uhhh, sure.....

Too often it's people bringing in their favorite periods/points/notes of history to bear on their faction of choice. I'm not saying you're doing this necessarily, but in these cases the connections are usually flimsy at best. This is most often seen in most discussions in regards to the Roman Empire btw, where people automatically assume that every Empire is like the Roman Empire even in the absolute absence of all evidence besides the term "empire". It is quite grating on my tender sensibilities really.

[Lillith Blackheart]

I'm just saying that if people say that X is inspired by Y, I'm expecting to see hard evidence. Why is this important? If you can establish a link (whether it is IC or just meta/designer level) we can infer more incisively into a lot of other things. If not, we should be actively discouraged from making needless comparisons.

Except the both of you just went and listed the ways it was inspired by those entities.

"Inspired by" does not mean "equal to". Electronic music was inspired by Disco. Rap was inspired by Jazz. They don't sound even slightly similar, but those things are their foundation.

People are taking "inspired by" to mean "equal to", and no one ever said that.

The point being made that brought this whole tangent about was that one individual stated "Amarrians wouldn't act like that," and another disagreed stating that even in the entities that the Amarrian Empire was inspired by these sorts of things were not only not uncommon, but given the proper rules being followed, weren't even frowned up. In fact they were considered to be fairly normal behaviors.

To extrapolate from that that someone is saying "The Amarr Empire is the Byzantine Empire in space," is a rather extreme, though likely unintentional, straw man. It is not giving equivocation, it is, like any thing that is inspired, pointing to a baseline that shows that perhaps one might have a misconception about it based on their misconception of its foundation.

The thing about it is that the error being made is that of perspective bias. Since the culture that he is viewing from (Western European, specifically British) sees the Amarr Empire as a more strongly conservative, theocratic society, that they are conservative in all ways, however that is not really the case. Though they may adhere to a strict code of ethics, that code of ethics is not something that can be defined using Western European ideals, as they may well see themselves (especially considering the major changes going on in the Empire as of late) as incredibly liberal, and see Western European society as being overly Conservative.

It just depends on the rules put into place.

Take, for example the Byzantines and the HRE. The HRE member states would look upon the Byzantine society as highly decadent and overly liberal, and this was one of the causes of the fracture. At the same time, the Byzantines would look upon the HRE and think the exact same thing of them.

Is either society correct? Yes, they both are. The schizm comes from what their ethical hangups were and where they selected them. Having men and women at a party in the Byzantine empire and they get some drinks in them and start getting naked and going a little crazy would be highly frowned upon, not because they were getting naked, but because they were demeaning themselves in front of equals. Give them the same situation but those they are with are not equals (especially those of the same gender) and this is suddenly A-OK.

This is the sort of thing I was trying to bring to one's attention. The problem isn't that people are playing Amarr wrong, or "everyone is playing Gallente," the problem is Perspective Bias giving people a false-view of what should be expected because they are attempting to apply the rulesets of various cultures based upon the ideals of their own.

And therein lies the error.