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Author Topic: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP  (Read 887 times)

Gesakaarin

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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=516990

So reading through this thread it struck how there seems to be very different approaches as to how people interact with the lore and game world when it comes to their RP and I suppose it could be broken down into to two options:

1. My character is essentially "myself" or an idealized version of myself.

2. My character is not myself, or has as little to do with myself as possible and for all intents and purposes I treat them as NPC.

Reflecting back on my own experiences in RP these past few years, I think quite honestly there is absolutely no way these two different approaches can be reconciled in any real or effective manner, due to:

If a subsection of roleplayers approach their characters as "themselves" with a different fictional guise on this leads to (in my mind):

a) the potential for emotional over-investment in the character

b) an inability to see the different approach, "This character is not myself, it is essentially a fictional construct," because the standard held is that anyone else roleplaying must be doing it in the same way -- via author insertion into the game world.

This will lead only to severe misunderstandings and drama such as the following over the years:

- You roleplay an Amarr, you must believe in RL slavery and are a religious person yourself.
- You roleplay a pirate and pvp as one, you must be or want to be an actual killer yourself.
- You roleplay a Sansha, you must actually want to enslave the entirety of humanity in a messianic utopian vision.
- What do you mean you felt nothing during that avocado smashing ERP session?

This gets even more hilarious and potentially extremely salty when people who self-identify as their characters in RP try to second guess or metagame the intentions and motivations of other players through the in-game actions and interactions of their characters.

Personally, I think these two differing approaches are pretty incompatible as a whole.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #1 on: 24 Jun 2017, 08:47 »

People find influence for characters from wherever they like. Utari is a magic blend of a few bits of me and a whole lot of either totally opposite me (religious vs my athiest as an example, alcoholic vs my now teetotaller) and totally nothing like me (obsessed with tea, as in the good stuff)

The important thing is to 1) not second judge the choices of other people and 2) trust, and expect, that people won't take things personally or get over emotional about fictional stuff.

If someone wants to play an avatar of themselves they understand it comes with risk tags for that character. As an aside and a warning to all I'll be watching this thread like a hawk as, while the comments are fair, the topic itself reeks of a lot of YDIW. I expect people to discuss this maturely.
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Aradina

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #2 on: 24 Jun 2017, 10:11 »

Some elements of a character are going to be influenced by the player, of course. That's just unavoidable. Aradina is influenced by some aspects of me but I also hate my characters so with quite a few more negatives. What's the opposite of idealized? I'm too tired to google that.

Her being bad with people for example is because I'm bad with people and if I could pretend to be better with people, I wouldn't be bad with people. There are certainly "acceptable"(careful word usage, six hours sleep, words are hard. Not saying all other examples are unacceptable) examples of self insert-y aspects to a character. Most peoples characters sexuality matches theirs for example. I don't think anyone has an issue with that. Characters tend to have similar tastes in music, entertainment and food simply because it's hard to suddenly come up with something that you don't like as a like, because you have no experience with that. Unless you come up with a list of likes and dislikes in advance anyway.

There's also traits that the player simply likes. Personalities, aesthetics, etc. I'm a big fan of cyberpunk kinds of things, so Aradina has cybernetics and wears black, and visually similar shades, clothing all the time. Because I think that looks neat. (It does look neat.)

Complete self inserts are annoying, as in characters that are exactly like their players and their players will take things personally. But overall there isn't always anything wrong with a little bit of wish fulfillment. I got into Eve because I wanted to be a badass space pirate(failed. Turns out I'm not actually a fan of that kind of gameplay), not sure I can fault someone for doing just that and getting really into the role, unless they're a dick about it anyway.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #3 on: 24 Jun 2017, 10:29 »

the topic itself reeks of a lot of YDIW. I expect people to discuss this maturely.

Not at all, this is me noticing that in a game like Eve which is heavily driven by conflict, confrontation, and occasionally things blowing up. When I RP I take a backseat from my own character and derive their actions from a fictional worldview which might on occasion result in the aforementioned then the end results seem like they're going to differ greatly because the point of interaction also differs.

If I can't even be sure that the people I'm going to interact with aren't going to be personally offended by the actions and results of roleplay that leads to conflict then really what's the point of actually roleplaying anything but non-confrontation and appeasement (thus excising the deployment of a whole lot of archetypes) because hey, the expectation is that you shouldn't do that because people will be upset in the real world about it all?

Because there does seem to be quite a difference of approach in perspective and methods of immersion/interaction and if the lowest common denominator is, "Don't do anything that might offend someone because they're really emotionally invested in the character," Then I guess the only option left is to roleplay baking bread or something I guess to make sure no one gets offended ever.

If one perspective is the deep identification and emotional investment in a character as the player and the other is the use of the distance to maintain a character's archetypes in play then under any conflict dynamic the former is going to make -a lot- of assumptions about the latter because the standard held is an assumption that the people playing in that manner identify to the same extent they themselves do.

So, if the prevalent attitude is quite frankly, "I am my character," For all intents and purposes then those who play by distance to their character are potentially always going to cause a whole lot of misunderstanding and really the only sensible option left seems to opt-out completely on the basis that they're going to offend people who RP with a lot of self-identification in a game like Eve.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #4 on: 24 Jun 2017, 12:02 »

My point was not "do not offend anyone/play it safe." My point was if people want to go to the level of playing an idealised version of themselves then that is their choice and it very much is YDIW to tell them they can't.

My other point is that people who choose to do that should understand the risks of immersing themselves to that level, and have no one to blame but themselves if 'bad things' happen to their character and they can't handle it OOC. It's the age old debate that people should RP as they like, but when two or more characters bump into each other, the OOC/IC divide should be distinctly held dear by both parties. Failure to hold to that by one side is that side's fault and no more.

TL;DR if people want to play self inserts that's fine by me, but I really don't care if some of mine, or someone else's legitimate RP upsets them beyond the keyboard.
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Ché Biko

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #5 on: 25 Jun 2017, 17:55 »

I agree with Utari, I don't think the 2 play styles are incompatible. Like Ara and her char, Ché is also a darker version of me, for similar reasons, but I've always known that other people create chars that are not a lot like themselves, and I don't see any issues with it.

I also can get emotionally invested into other peoples char's who are nothing like me. But that also happens when I watch a good movie or series episode. Sometimes it can be nice to cry watching a movie, or doing RP. Anyway, I am the person responsible for dealing with the joys and sorrows these attachments give me.

I think I'm probably one of the players who immerses himself in his character the most, yet I think I'm also one of the most capable at maintaining the OOC/IC divide when it comes to my thoughts about players who antagonize my char.
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Sakura Nihil

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #6 on: 25 Jun 2017, 22:23 »

I can't agree that the two are incompatible, because we have over a decade of evidence that the two have co-existed in EVE.  If you want an example, look at Star Fraction, circa... I want to say 2007?  Around the time we were on campaign against PIE/CVA/AM and pre-Alliance Tournament IV...  It was chock full of RPers, some of whom were in the first category (I'd argue like Bacch, Ituralde, Cosmo, and a few others) and others who were in the second category (like Jade, Tyzz, and myself).

It's not a problem, in my mind - regardless of whether your character reflects yourself OOG, or if they're far removed from yourself in personality, when you RP them, you RP them to the best of your ability.  No one's going to be perfect, especially when it comes to minutia (such as their favorite drink, type of music they enjoy, holos they watch, etc.), so you fill in the gaps as best you can with what you are familiar with IRL, and assume there will be future analogues in EVE.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jun 2017, 01:53 »

legitimate RP upsets them beyond the keyboard.

There is no such as "legitimate RP" in an environment where the only consensus is not what does or does not constitute either a) legitimate RP or b) illegitimate RP but rather only that the phrase, "You're doing it wrong," As forbidden, means there exist no mutually held standards and thus questions of legitimacy in RP are to be considered wholly irrelevant. Equally so, there can't be, "Good" RP or "Shit" RP just RP without any semblance of quality or attribution to a commonly held standard.

I can't agree that the two are incompatible, because we have over a decade of evidence that the two have co-existed in EVE.  If you want an example, look at Star Fraction, circa... I want to say 2007?  Around the time we were on campaign against PIE/CVA/AM and pre-Alliance Tournament IV...  It was chock full of RPers, some of whom were in the first category (I'd argue like Bacch, Ituralde, Cosmo, and a few others) and others who were in the second category (like Jade, Tyzz, and myself).

I will note they were all in the same Alliance, which misses my central point: The differences in RP styles and the potential end results of such once you introduce the conflict dynamics inherent to the gameplay within Eve.

If a confrontational dynamic occurs within RP with people who are so wholly incapable as to be able to separate themselves from their own character, and who believe that since they RP in that fashion, then that's how everyone else must RP then they're probably going to think that by their own standards the people they disagree with must also believe in what their character believes, and are for all intents and purposes the player themselves.

This makes any semblance of OOC/IC separation coming out of the mouths of such people nothing more than a trite platitude to cover up their own lack of creativity and when they try to pillory others -- their own hypocrisy. Never seen such "Roleplayers" in action? Damn, I guess you've never been accused of being a RL people smuggler for roleplaying a POW exchange with Sansha's Nation; or on that note accused of being a RL abduction specialist for a messianic cult; or maybe the assumption you're a member of the far right and "redpilled" because your character happens to be a Caldari who believes in supporting an authoritarian regime.

The fact that a lot of roleplayers over-invest emotionally in the their characters that they're wholly incapable to divorce themselves from their own avatars certainly isn't any news to me. The whole method of my accused trolling with Veik the past few years has been wholly dependent on taking advantage of this failure point with people who cannot discern what is real and fake, what is fiction and what is true not just with their own characters but with my own -- all the while remaining fully in-character.

The fact that it has proven so effective, that the outpourings of salt so copious from so many means that regardless of any professions to the contrary the method of personal self-insertion into a character is the prevalent methodology of RP among the community and as a result is completely, wholly, and irrevocably defunct due to people incapable of taking a step back from their character, looking at a mirror and asking themselves the question, "Maybe it's not other people trolling me, I'm just trolling myself?"
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Stutzer

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jun 2017, 13:09 »

I guess I can wade into this just a bit. It will end up being a ramble and might miss the point entirely.

By now I suppose it is clear that I, as a player, am highly sequestered from the sort of activity that might give rise to this conversation. Part of the reason I thought a playstyle thread would be useful is that it would provide an OOC tool (for those who wish such a thing) to allow players to curate the content available when they play. Incidentally, this touches on my primary gripe with the Discourse forums, but that is another matter. In any case, yeah, it is metagamey, but as much as some of us would like to have a slow-building, organic, and complex narrative experience, the RL time simply isn't there. Few things are more disappointing than wasted time.

Some players see themselves as a wallet balance, or as their Jabber/Mumble privileges, or a series of brackets and flashing lights against a background nebula, or an alliance logo, or a K/D%, or even as their Carbon sculpt. They log in to acquire whatever validates their justification for playing, and it's not inherently vicious that those things don't necessarily overlap between players. I certainly won't fault them for finding enjoyment in a thing and seeking it out, but I also don't have to involve myself in it. I think that players with disparate interests can interact in enjoyable ways as long as there is some OOC communication and willingness to 'transgress' the notion of the sandbox.

I do realize that I contradict myself, since the curation of my own desired content involves a measure of self-alienation from potential communication. It is merely a measure of efficiency.
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Katja Somni

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #9 on: 06 Jul 2017, 02:41 »

The fact that a lot of roleplayers over-invest emotionally in the their characters that they're wholly incapable to divorce themselves from their own avatars certainly isn't any news to me. The whole method of my accused trolling with Veik the past few years has been wholly dependent on taking advantage of this failure point with people who cannot discern what is real and fake, what is fiction and what is true not just with their own characters but with my own -- all the while remaining fully in-character.

The fact that it has proven so effective, that the outpourings of salt so copious from so many means that regardless of any professions to the contrary the method of personal self-insertion into a character is the prevalent methodology of RP among the community and as a result is completely, wholly, and irrevocably defunct due to people incapable of taking a step back from their character, looking at a mirror and asking themselves the question, "Maybe it's not other people trolling me, I'm just trolling myself?"


I should, first, say that I am largely an outsider to your specific situation. I don't know you. But, still, I wanted to talk a bit about the idea of "taking a step back from their character."



No matter how much you self-identify with a character, or how much you try to sequester yourself and that fictional construct, there is always going to be a connection. Regardless of which camp you fall into, or where you lie between the two, you are still a player, playing a character. You can never separate from this, I know, blindingly obvious fact, but it happens to be important. It is, for example, the total downfall of most toxic RP behavior that professes to be mere RP. No matter how much you think your character is a fictional, separate construct, it is still you making the decisions. Even if the decisions stem from a personality you have dreamed up, but consider at least to some degree separate from yourself, you are still behind the steering wheel.


If you set out to play an annoying character, then that inexorably, even if only in some small way, makes you annoying too. An RP troll is, still, a troll. This is not a breach of the IC/OOC separation barrier any more than ANY roleplay is, it's just inevitable. I also don't think it's terrible of people to react to this, or separate themselves and their characters from someone like that as a result. Personally, I prefer to give people the time to really dig their own grave, but given the inseparability of character and player, I don't think anyone playing characters that are in one or multiple ways extreme have much of a stable foundation to stand on when they mock people who can't separate them and their characters, or complain about finding no interaction, or only extreme interaction. Things gravitate that way naturally when you seed your own environment that way. "Maybe it really IS me being a troll, when I am being called that."


I say all the above as someone who, over years of RPing, has made the transition from total self-identification to a far more separate idea of my RP characters. Not that I profess to some kind of super-smarts on this topic, since I remain human. Just a perspective. Also, I think it's obvious to anyone who has ever RPed that there certainly are many roleplayers who take things, anything, far too personally and stir up drama over it. The above post isn't about those people.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #10 on: 08 Jul 2017, 08:36 »

No matter how much you self-identify with a character, or how much you try to sequester yourself and that fictional construct, there is always going to be a connection. Regardless of which camp you fall into, or where you lie between the two, you are still a player, playing a character. You can never separate from this, I know, blindingly obvious fact, but it happens to be important. It is, for example, the total downfall of most toxic RP behavior that professes to be mere RP. No matter how much you think your character is a fictional, separate construct, it is still you making the decisions. Even if the decisions stem from a personality you have dreamed up, but consider at least to some degree separate from yourself, you are still behind the steering wheel.

Sure it is, but is it still RP if in playing out your character others spend more time trying to determine your player motivations and playing the game of OOC attribution than actually taking things at face value?

Because this really is what I'm talking about:

Person A looks at their character, thinks to themselves well okay given this characters particular worldview, ideology, and personality etc., I'll go ahead and file a wardec and take action against certain group X or person X they consider their ideological enemy/competitor/hell just don't like them.

You do that and suddenly there's outrage by a lot RP'ers because "You" as in the player of the character is "Mean" or a "Bully" or "Not doing REAL RP" or "You are a troll". What, I'm supposed to not enact rational action and consequences based on character objectives and ideology in the game that might lead to conflict because I have to be nice to other characters at all times so their PLAYERS don't feel hurt or lose spaceships?

That's what I'm talking about: the inability to separate the attribution of motives between the CHARACTER and that of the PLAYER behind it.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #11 on: 08 Jul 2017, 17:01 »

I think my reply will probably upset a few people, but I honestly don't care.

If that's the case Vek just blow their shit up and ignore their screeching. I don't eve care if it isn't for RP, if you're using in game methods for in game actions, that's just fucking EvE man. I'm tired of being one of those people exposed to said screeching elsewhere as people vent about the latest RP boogeyman. I literally don't care, in game stuff is in game stuff, the only controversy I care about is people meta-ing outside of the game for real for the literal sake of an RP 'win' rather then RP 'content', Godmodding, or sketching with me a scene or mutually agreeing how things are going to go for a bit then going behind my back for the express purpose of flinging the mud of 'untouchable' on my character because 'keks'.

If certain groups or characters upset you, you ignore them or you out compete them. They blow your shit up? Either fight back, or learn how to scale back or move space. They're crushing your style of RP? Run more events, interact more with other people rather then constantly fighting and crying over other people's characters or RP styles. Adapt and overcome, because I'm tired of "muh rp oppression" going on everywhere. This hyperdrama bullshit is not motivating me to care enough to interact with anyone outside of my bubble.


Anyone upset by these words don't fucking reply, just hit the report button and let my fellow mods be the judge if I've crossed the line. I may have and I'll deserve the punishment if so but I've had enough. - In reply to something stated elsewhere, this isn't "don't post a disagreement" it's a "don't take it personal and get into a flame war with me." This is meant as a lesson for all, for both sides, and not a debate for two.
« Last Edit: 08 Jul 2017, 17:20 by Utari Onzo »
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Teinyhr

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #12 on: 08 Jul 2017, 17:07 »

Oh, this again.
My 2c:
First, technically, you shouldn't bully a dragon if you're ill equipped to deal with the backlash, so your fault if you get your butt kicked. Second, if you know you can crush some people with your power and do it just because you can, using "they said mean stuff" as a lame excuse, that does sort of make you a dick slash troll slash bully both OOC and IC.

This, as far as I can tell, stems from the fact that in many modern MMO RP circles RP happens inside one friendly faction and you can't actually hurt the other party, and thusly people never have to deal with repercussions of throwing words around carelessly, and are emotionally unprepared and unequipped to deal with it when someone in EVE comes and kicks, pisses and shits on their sandcastle. There is ALWAYS an OOC link between roleplayers, and because roleplayers are a minority in most games people have, I think, come to expect more solidarity between each other. As such, EVE is a harsh mistress, because you can hurt people in this game - those swimming in ISK often think nothing about destroying assets someone might have worked weeks, months, even years for. That is undeniably what makes EVE a great game too, but makes coexistence hard - but not impossible, as you sort of claim that two certain playstyles are "irreconcilable".

Anyway it's pretty late, I'm tired, i've been up from since 5AM, I'll check when I wake if anything I wrote makes any sense to my more lucid self.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #13 on: 08 Jul 2017, 21:10 »

Oh, this again.
My 2c:
First, technically, you shouldn't bully a dragon if you're ill equipped to deal with the backlash, so your fault if you get your butt kicked. Second, if you know you can crush some people with your power and do it just because you can, using "they said mean stuff" as a lame excuse, that does sort of make you a dick slash troll slash bully both OOC and IC.

This, as far as I can tell, stems from the fact that in many modern MMO RP circles RP happens inside one friendly faction and you can't actually hurt the other party, and thusly people never have to deal with repercussions of throwing words around carelessly, and are emotionally unprepared and unequipped to deal with it when someone in EVE comes and kicks, pisses and shits on their sandcastle. There is ALWAYS an OOC link between roleplayers, and because roleplayers are a minority in most games people have, I think, come to expect more solidarity between each other. As such, EVE is a harsh mistress, because you can hurt people in this game - those swimming in ISK often think nothing about destroying assets someone might have worked weeks, months, even years for. That is undeniably what makes EVE a great game too, but makes coexistence hard - but not impossible, as you sort of claim that two certain playstyles are "irreconcilable".

Anyway it's pretty late, I'm tired, i've been up from since 5AM, I'll check when I wake if anything I wrote makes any sense to my more lucid self.

Well that's what it boils down to for me -- how exactly does being a roleplayer afford some kind of special dispensation from consequences of their RP in Eve? Why should the the inability to cope with the non-consensual nature of conflict in the game by others place an onus of responsibility on me, the player? Eve allows a pretty open exploration of human conflict through its game mechanics and yet if some want a denial of the concept for a character: If the reasons to go through with a shooting match are sufficient for ME then it doesn't matter what YOU think; it leads to a ludicrious scenario for me of, "I have to agree and consent to your reasons for wanting to shoot me."

The thing is for me, the people on the one hand who scream the loudest about some attribution of motives about the players of other characters are also the ones who seem to expect that those same players meta-game their own damn characters to satisfy their perceived requirements that roleplayers should be afforded some kind of special treatment that "non-roleplayers" would not get. That somehow kicking over the sandcastle of a roleplayer group or person is some kind of egregious offence but doing so to those not considered to RP is just all fine and dandy.

That's a special kind of bullshit hypocrisy to me. Making unfounded assumptions and player attribution of motives about a character under a conflict scenario and throwing shit about it OOC about how it's not "Fair" or some other group are a bunch of trolls, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME expecting:

a) That the players of those characters meta-game their own characters to all of a sudden abandon whatever reasons and rationale they have for shooting it up;

so that;

b) The reasons for the conflict of those on the opposing side is something THEY agree with.

Because if all that's desired out of RP is consent and lack of any consequences for either word or action you can already do that in Eve: Just sit in an NPC station in an NPC corp and emote away.

For everything else however has every chance to end up zero sum and purely transactional with a winner and loser, and if you cannot find yourself able to cope with being on the receiving end of "Griefers" then don't risk anything considered of value.

If that's the case Vek just blow their shit up and ignore their screeching. I don't eve care if it isn't for RP, if you're using in game methods for in game actions, that's just fucking EvE man. I'm tired of being one of those people exposed to said screeching elsewhere as people vent about the latest RP boogeyman. I literally don't care, in game stuff is in game stuff, the only controversy I care about is people meta-ing outside of the game for real for the literal sake of an RP 'win' rather then RP 'content', Godmodding, or sketching with me a scene or mutually agreeing how things are going to go for a bit then going behind my back for the express purpose of flinging the mud of 'untouchable' on my character because 'keks'.

I think there's often a conflation of RPing to win that occurs:

1. If someone uses information about a character gained outside IC sources in order to /emote a win in some kind of RP scenario in contravention of a collaborative framework between players.

2. RPing a character who wants to be successful and thus builds up the kind of funds, social networks, contacts, and skills etc., in order to push what they consider their own objectives and meet their own goals.

The former is pretty shitty; but with the latter expecting a character not to enjoy winning and being successful on their own merits even if it means a detriment to other characters seems pretty weird to me.
« Last Edit: 08 Jul 2017, 21:22 by Gesakaarin »
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Utari Onzo

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Re: Self-identification vs. Non-identification in RP
« Reply #14 on: 09 Jul 2017, 02:40 »

I think you're cherry picking a singular point to ignore the wider message. Stop caring about people that frustrate you about your RP and get on with it.

Not only that it should be bloody obvious I was talking about the former kind of meta gaming.
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2017, 02:45 by Utari Onzo »
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Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
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