Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Did you know:

That Band of Brothers killed the first titan in EVE?

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?  (Read 1391 times)

Vikarion

  • Guest
So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« on: 23 Jul 2016, 00:13 »

Well, the mods have been complaining about not enough complaints, so I thought I'd start up a thread to give them some content, so to speak.

[Dear mods, that was a joke. I hope)

So, there are a good bit the more European-inclined on these boards, and being the ignorant 'Murican that I am, I've been mostly hesitant to adopt any real opinion on it. Thus, my policy of reading everything I found about it, and quizzing random people with strange accents.

So! On a scale of one to three, do y'all rate the Brexit to be...

1. Hmm, probably the right decision. Indeed, yes.
2. Definitively, absolutely, positively the correct choice!
3. BRITTANIA RULES THE WAVES...
4. The above choices do not nearly encompass the range of possible opinions, even were we to limit it to only one side of the referendum. I will therefore explain further upon the thesis in regards to my opinion regarding the result of the referendum, and also as to how those who think otherwise are thundering dunderheads!
Logged

Elmund Egivand

  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 772
  • Will jib for ISK
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Jul 2016, 03:32 »

I don't think even the Brits had any idea what they are going to do after Brexit. Probably need to wait another year or so and see what happens.
Logged
Deep sea fish loves you forever

Louella Dougans

  • \o/
  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2156
  • \o/
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Jul 2016, 05:14 »

The good parts of the EU, are outweighed by the bad parts. And, because of recent events in two larger members, i.e. France and Germany, there might not even be an EU in the next few years.

The good parts include: various rights for citizens, scientific co-operation, protection of trademarks, travel across the EU, and a few other things.

The bad parts are numerous. There are a lot of non-elected bureaucrats with some very un-democratic ideas.
Take for example, the time when the Irish held a referendum about a proposed constitution for the EU. The voters rejected it, and so, the EU had to revise their proposals, as it had required unanimity from the member states.
What the EU did in response, was insert changes into a number of different existing treaties, and not proposing a new treaty containing all the changes that were desired. This was done with the intent of confusing voters as to what it was they were actually voting for. It was done so as to make discussing changes difficult and obscure. Because the bureaucrats see the citizens as an obstacle to the EU project.
"It is unpenetrable for the public"
"The latest brainwave is to preserve part of the innovations of the constitutional treaty, but hide them by breaking them up into several texts. The most innovative provisions would become simple amendments to the treaties of Maastricht and Nice. The technical improvements would be regrouped in a colourless, harmless treaty. The texts would be sent to national parliaments, which would vote separately. Thus public opinion would be led to adopt, without knowing it, the provisions that we dare not present directly. This process of 'dividing to ratify' is obviously unworthy of the challenge at stake. It may be a good magician's act. But it will confirm European citizens in the idea that the construction of Europe is organised behind their backs by lawyers and diplomats"
That's what French politician Valéry Giscard d'Estaing had to say about it.

As for another un-democratic example, take the Common Fisheries Policy.
"The original six Common Market members realized that four countries applying to join the Common Market at that time (Britain, Ireland, Denmark including Greenland, and Norway) would control the richest fishing grounds in the world. The original six therefore drew up Council Regulation 2141/70 giving all Members equal access to all fishing waters, even though the Treaty of Rome gave no authority to do this. This was adopted on the morning of 30 June 1970, a few hours before the applications to join were officially received. This ensured that the regulations became part of the acquis communautaire before the new members joined, obliging them to accept the regulation."
Changing the terms of an agreement. Yes. Quite. A bit like changing the Constitution of the United States after John Hancock and all had already signed it, without acknowledging that that would be an Amendment that would require a proper process, no ?

And then there's the effect that the Free Movement of People has, in the sense of perpetuating deprivation, and effectively legalising slavery.
What the free movement of people allows, is the creation of slums, inhabited by migrant workers paid poverty wages, which has the effect of suppressing incomes for native workers.
A slum property, with 6 migrant people sleeping in bunkbeds in a room intended for one, and those migrants are paid only just the legal minimum wage. Now, the migrants can afford to live like that, because their families live in other countries, and they can send money home to support their family.
The slums are owned by management companies, whose shareholders are often local employers, and the migrants have to pay rent, which finds its way to the employer, making those migrants effectively much cheaper to employ than a native worker who lives in their own house.
This is particularly noticeable in the case of agricultural workers, who live in a bunkhouse on the farm property.
A migrant farm worker, paid £250/week, and living in the bunkhouse and having to pay £50/week in accommodation and "employment agency" fees to the farm owner, effectively costs £200/week. The migrant can afford to send the bulk of that money abroad to support their family living elsewhere, where living costs are much cheaper.
A native worker, at the same pay rate, living off-site in their own house, costs £250/week. They're fundamentally more expensive to employ. And £250/week is not enough to run a house and support a family. At best, it is merely existing, not living.
What the free movement of people effectively allows, is for large industrial employers to preserve their investments in plant and machinery, by allowing them to bring in slaves from abroad to live in slums, so that the employer can benefit from low wage rates without having to move the industry into a lower-wage country.
A native worker cannot compete in those conditions, and it is unreasonable to expect them to do so.

And finally, Donald Trump has just this week effectively said that NATO is over. He's pretty much given Comrade Putin a free hand to invade the Baltic states and establish "facts on the ground", just like they did in Ukraine.

So, all over Europe, there's the creation of socio-economic situations that promote the extremists, with racial and religious tension, bolshevism and fascism both on the rise, and the Internet allows these groups to gain traction a lot quicker than ever before.

Good job everyone, it's like nothing was learned in the past 100 years.


There's also the question of yet another independence referendum in scotland, but i'll talk more about that later.
Logged
\o/

The Rook

  • Watcher in the Void
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
    • FalconNET
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Jul 2016, 08:13 »

Wow.
Logged

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Jul 2016, 10:28 »

Yeah, uh...wow. :ugh:
Logged

The Rook

  • Watcher in the Void
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
    • FalconNET
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Jul 2016, 12:09 »

I'm genuinely not sure if this is serious or just a very elaborate troll.
Logged

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Jul 2016, 12:37 »

I'm genuinely not sure if this is serious or just a very elaborate troll.

I don't know why it would be a troll, or why you would think that. I've seen similar concerns expressed by others. I just didn't expect such a long, detailed response so quick.
Logged

The Rook

  • Watcher in the Void
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
    • FalconNET
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Jul 2016, 12:46 »

Because 'EU legalizing slavery; being to blame for rising issues of nationalism, racism, religious extremism' is a bit far out for any reasonable discussion.

The real tl;dr is that the EU is to blame for everything bad that is happening. It should be an eyeopener to see how quickly the most prominent leave campaigners jumped ship when the vote was through. Bonus points for immediately turning around and saying that the majority of the bold claims (more money for healthcare, no immigrants anymore) are not going to happen. Now others have to deal with the mess.
Logged

Ché Biko

  • Space Buddho-Commu-Nihilist
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
  • I'll face the stars or the abyss.
    • Biko's Backstage Character Thread
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Jul 2016, 14:06 »

 :brilliant:
Nah.
Seriously, I think it´s bad, particularly for Britain´s youth. They could lose a lot of opportunities, like education and work. This could be the start of a EU break-up. There is also a rather large group in the Netherlands that would like to leave the EU, even though that would probably be quite bad for our economy.

The EU might not be directly responsible for rising nationalism, racism and religious tensions, but it doesn't seem to have any answers to those things.
« Last Edit: 25 Jul 2016, 09:01 by Ché Biko »
Logged
-OOChé

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jul 2016, 16:12 »

Because 'EU legalizing slavery; being to blame for rising issues of nationalism, racism, religious extremism' is a bit far out for any reasonable discussion.

It was pretty obvious to me that she meant "wage slavery".
Logged

Elmund Egivand

  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 772
  • Will jib for ISK
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jul 2016, 00:13 »

Because 'EU legalizing slavery; being to blame for rising issues of nationalism, racism, religious extremism' is a bit far out for any reasonable discussion.

It was pretty obvious to me that she meant "wage slavery".

The EU doesn't even need to exist for there to be wage slavery. Just look at Chinese Sweat Shops. How about the intern system in the United States (those guys don't even GET wages)?
Logged
Deep sea fish loves you forever

Louella Dougans

  • \o/
  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2156
  • \o/
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #11 on: 24 Jul 2016, 00:57 »

'EU legalizing slavery; being to blame for rising issues of nationalism, racism, religious extremism' is a bit far out for any reasonable discussion.

Not solely to blame, but it certainly doesn't help.

It has created, or helped to create, a situation whereby a large number of people do not benefit from the prosperity that the good points of the EU helped to create.

Take for example, university education. Things like the ERASMUS programme, whereby students can spend time abroad as part of their studies, and the Modena? thing which seeks to establish equivalency between different countries degree courses. This helps university graduates, giving them a range of opportunities to study and work across the entire EU. Similar things for university researchers - a wider range of opportunities to work and conduct research. This kind of academic co-operation is a good thing.

For non-graduates though, things are different. The usual response by politicians is that native workers should "up-skill" in order to compete with migrants for jobs. Those same politicians in Scotland, have massively reduced the number and availability of college places, hugely reduced the further education budget, and closed many colleges, which severely restricts the ability of people to gain new skills.
E.g. a skill that is always in demand, is driving a JCB excavator or similar plant. Now, to drive one of those (as an employee that is) requires a particular qualification. Several colleges used to offer skills courses for excavator operation. But those have been cut back. So, people without the qualification are unable to gain it easily.
So, a construction industry employer, is looking at recruiting skilled foreign workers, or having to pay to train up unskilled native workers. It's cheaper to recruit skilled foreigners, than to go through the difficulty of training native workers.

And like I said, because foreign workers families don't live in the UK, they are much cheaper to support, which has the result of wage suppression for workers in the UK.


Maybe I have a different perspective though, because I work in these kind of deprived communities, and I have also worked while living in a bunkhouse on a sporting estate, alongside foreign workers. So, my experiences and therefore my viewpoints will be different from someone from a different socio-economic background.
Logged
\o/

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #12 on: 24 Jul 2016, 04:27 »

The EU didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing. If there is one thing that we don't cherish enough as Europeans in regard to the EU then it's that it brought a quite long lasting peace to this region of the world. But if the EU breaks up and the nationalists get the upper hand and war rages again over Europe, then people will probably still blame the EU for it.

But let me rebutt some of the more concrete points made by Louella:

That the Free Movement of People has the effects Louella describes isn't really a problem that's the EU is to blame for: Over here in Germany we don't have those exact problems. That's probably because we have another structure in regard to how wages are agreed upon with the workers unions being a big player in this. We also have a dedicated education system outside for non-academic professions, which might play a role as well. Also, even though Britain isn't part of the Schengen Area, the british government supported the influx of foreign Europeans when there was the eastward enlargement of the EU. They had the option to go for a more restricted movement in a transition period, like Germany did. The fact is that Britain went above and beyond what the EU demanded in regard to taking in people.

I also think that the British government failed to take care of their citizenry, instead pushing their economy to rather employ foreigners for cheaper wages in an effort to keep their economy 'competitive'. The loosers are certainly the simple british workers. But to blame the EU for that is somewhat ridiculous!

I also predict that the brexit won't change the situation, as now the UK suddenly got even more dependent on cheap labour to stay internationally competitive.

Up to the next - actually the other point:

Yes, the EU is undemocratic in many of it's structures. But it's not like this because the EU institutions want it to be like this per se, but rather mostly because the national governments don't want to loose power in relation to the EU. That's because the "construction of Europe" is not organized by the EU, but the national governments.

The British government played always an exceptional role in this, especially unwilling to cede power to the EU and mainly looking for it's own advantage. In fact I think the UK had the best balance of benefits/costs in regard to EU-membership compared to all other memberstates, getting special treatment on numerous occasions.

So, the "numerous bad points" of the EU boil down to these two, basically. The first being mostly a problem of the british economic policy, the latter being a problem resulting from natinal states being unwilling to cease power to a EU of the Europeans, rather wanting to keep an EU of the nation states. While that's something done by most, if not all member states, the UK is certainly not innocent in this.

That's not to say that a lot of the criticism in regard to the undemocratic structure of the EU isn't legitimate. But who really thinks that international treaties in the EU will become more democratic, that Europe will become more democratic, if the national functionaries that prevented European democracy are just going on like before, acting on a level of national interests? Does anyone really expect that the trade relations, the regulations and treaties the UK has with the rest of Europe will have more democratic legitimation after the brexit? Or that Europe will get a democratic constitution once any institutional need for that constitution has been eliminated?

Also, which recent events in France and Germany are you alluding to? I see no events over here that have any power to cause the EU to cease existing, especially not in the next few years.

Yes, the EU has to change - and with it the member states. Yes, there's a certain risk for other nations to want to leave the EU as well. I think the people will come to realize with the brexit example that it's a bad idea.

Meanwhile the UK has to struggle to stay united. Scotland doesn't seem to be prepared to leave the EU. I think it's more realistic to see the UK "fail" and to witness a "little Britain" than to see a dissolution of the EU.

I think this rant explains that I think that the brexit was and is a stupid thing. It hurts the UK more than it helps. It hurts the EU as well, but not quite as much as the UK, I think. Time will tell. But I really think that Europe needs the EU, the Europeans need the EU. Not alone for something as petty as ensuring our continued economic prosperity in a globalised economy, but moreover for the sake of peace in Europe.
Logged

The Rook

  • Watcher in the Void
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
    • FalconNET
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #13 on: 24 Jul 2016, 05:25 »

And all these deprived communities can look forward now is a few years of Thatcherism Mk II. But I'm sure it'll get better afterwards. ;)
Logged

Louella Dougans

  • \o/
  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2156
  • \o/
Re: So, how awesome was Brexit?!?
« Reply #14 on: 24 Jul 2016, 13:35 »

Also, which recent events in France and Germany are you alluding to? I see no events over here that have any power to cause the EU to cease existing, especially not in the next few years.

The rise of the Far Right political parties, e.g. the Front Nationale in France, and Aktion Fur Deutschland in Germany, which are using the recent refugee crisis, the terrorism crisis, and other things to promote their agendas, a lot of which are anti-EU.


And all these deprived communities can look forward now is a few years of Thatcherism Mk II

Great, isn't it.

In Scotland, we are being asked to choose between austerity imposed by Westminster, austerity imposed by Brussels/Berlin, and austerity imposed by Holyrood.

If there's a second referendumb on independence, that gets a "yes" vote, then there'll be statues of SNP politicians erected all over, and there will be lots of books published by politicians, and they'll all make bank, while public services continue to crumble, with the poorest in society suffering the most.

But there's always enough money for pay, expenses, and pensions for politicians.

So that's OK.
Logged
\o/
Pages: [1] 2