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[Aria Jenneth]

Also, Eve's Eurocentric enough as it blasted well is. ("Brutor?" Seriously?) We do NOT need the Gallente and Caldari reduced to WWII French and Germans, and if you consider me a "weeaboo" for following an Asian thread where several have been laid out?

So. Goddamn. Be. It.

I use the term weeabo in this context if one applies a direct one-to-one analogue with Japanese popular media culture, society, or history to seek in constructing an idealized image. Caldari Wayism might share some parallels with shintoism or buddhism but it is not a direct analogue, because the Caldari are Caldari and as such the context of their spiritualism lies in Caldari history and culture -- not Japanese. Or Korean. Or Chinese.

Apples and Oranges are not the same just because they are both fruits.

No disagreement, but those who find a direct analog are few and far between to the point where I'm not sure I've ever met one-- though every so often someone tries to tell the Amarr about this "Christ" guy they've been leaving out since their prehistory.

[Veiki]

though every so often someone tries to tell the Amarr about this "Christ" guy they've been leaving out since their prehistory.

Or appropriating the honorific of, "Ser", because the Amarr Empire exists in Westeros and Jamyl Sarum was the Khaleesi.

[Aria Jenneth]

though every so often someone tries to tell the Amarr about this "Christ" guy they've been leaving out since their prehistory.

Or appropriating the honorific of, "Ser", because the Amarr Empire exists in Westeros and Jamyl Sarum was the Khaleesi.

Sure. And George R.R. Martin stole it from "Wing Commander: Privateer 2."

(Except I have no reason to think he did.)

On the whole, Veiki, I'm just not especially interested in throwing rocks at people whose RP has a ways to develop. Canonical discussion, all good. Philosophical discussions, I prefer to have IC. Discussing how somebody is teh bads? ... not so interested.

So if your advice is really just "don't be awful," I guess I don't have much to say, other than to note that hardly any of us were any good when we started.

[Veiki]

On the whole, Veiki, I'm just not especially interested in throwing rocks at people whose RP has a ways to develop. Canonical discussion, all good. Philosophical discussions, I prefer to have IC. Discussing how somebody is teh bads? ... not so interested.

So if your advice is really just "don't be awful," I guess I don't have much to say, other than to note that hardly any of us were any good when we started.

I'm just pointing out that roleplayers projecting a derivative analogue of their preferred media, historical periods, politics, and worldviews on to their characters and factions -- such as fascist Caldari or Westorian Amarr -- is no fault of the canon lore as written by CCP but roleplayers themselves who turn it into the absurdities of crossover fanfiction.

That said, sure I think it's pretty awful but I also accept it as the current status quo within the roleplaying community and honestly if people enjoy doing crossover fanfiction roleplay with each other then that is their prerogative. I mean even The Mittani seems to really enjoy his Warhammer 40k/Eve Online crossover fanfiction roleplay so it's probably got a wide appeal for a lot of people who play - just not me.

[Aria Jenneth]

I'm just pointing out that roleplayers projecting a derivative analogue of their preferred media, historical periods, politics, and worldviews on to their characters and factions -- such as fascist Caldari or Westorian Amarr -- is no fault of the canon lore as written by CCP but roleplayers themselves who turn it into the absurdities of crossover fanfiction.

That said, sure I think it's pretty awful but I also accept it as the current status quo within the roleplaying community and honestly if people enjoy doing crossover fanfiction roleplay with each other then that is their prerogative. I mean even The Mittani seems to really enjoy his Warhammer 40k/Eve Online crossover fanfiction roleplay so it's probably got a wide appeal for a lot of people who play - just not me.

I do not know where you get this impression that "crossover fanfiction" is the norm.

Inspiration and occasional transplanting of particular concepts that seem to more or less fit, sure. Crossover? Really? I enjoy "Game of Thrones," I enjoy Amarr RP, and I don't see that much of one in the other aside from the logical consequences of a feudal culture surviving into a sci-fi age ("my lord," etc.).

Maybe I just don't care so much, but I don't think these phenomena are as widespread as you suggest.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Possibly the problem with the Caldari is that real life is a bit short of direct analogs of their way of doing things. Sure we've had, and still have, places where megas are very influential. But I can't think of a time & place where corporations have decided to do without government and do it all the work of raising, training & looking after a workforce themselves.

Maybe "corporation" is the wrong term for the megas? Maybe they are better thought of as allied nations that are all run on corporate lines.

[The Rook]

Arnulf,

There is a government in the State. It covers (national) foreign policy, (national) defence and acts as a court of law between all member corporations (not just those owned by or affiliated with the big eight.*). There is some bureaucratic central government as well (House of Records).

Everything below the national or inter-corporate level is governed by the corporations themselves. The ideology of these corporations being not just vessels for profit but quasi states makes it work. Caldari corporations are not just aimed at making money but also about providing for and taking care of their own. If you cross them, expect no sympathy from your peers and no neutral court.


*PY-RE was sued in front of the CBT for slander against Intara Direct Action, got support from Kaalakiota Lawyers and in the end Heth went all moustache on the case and used his powers as State Executor to stop the lawsuit. This was the point where the prevalent feeling, including many of those in PY-RE,  switched to "Provists are going too far".

[Veiki]

I do not know where you get this impression that "crossover fanfiction" is the norm.

I got that impression from the roleplaying community in Eve Online. Weren't you the one talking about fascism which is an ideology specific to a particular era in real-world history being co-opted wholesale and applied to Caldari as-is without any context?

When the prevailing attitude is to just co-opt real world history, media, culture or literature wholesale to fictional entities without any context as to how or why then all that exists is essentially terrible crossover fiction divorced from the lore itself.

It's a similar process as those people who try to repost OC on imgur so they can get some upvotes to cover their own inability to have the creativity to create dank memes.

Or me trying to roleplay having created a post-scarcity society inside a wormhole while desperately trying to hope that other people haven't read Iain M. Banks Culture series on which everything has been directly copypasted from.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Also as an aside: Jin-Roh > Helghast.

Pfft. The Jin-roh are merely a subjugated Japan. At least the Helghast are a properly corporate statist nation.

[Veiki]

Also as an aside: Jin-Roh > Helghast.

Pfft. The Jin-roh are merely a subjugated Japan. At least the Helghast are a properly corporate statist nation.

Yeah but Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade had them feels, man.

Also a lack of a proper Killzone game from the Helghast perspective. Who doesn't want to press F to execute civilians?

[Davlos]

In which case, in the same spirit and vein, further bonus points for playing Caldari as the second coming of the Helghast.

Do I get further bonus points for having helped develop the Helghast? If anyone gets to play one in Eve, it ought to be the guy who wrote half of Visari's propaganda...

If that is true, I'm a huge fan. That crazy speech for the intro of Killzone 2 was one of the best I've seen in vidya.

Possibly the problem with the Caldari is that real life is a bit short of direct analogs of their way of doing things. Sure we've had, and still have, places where megas are very influential. But I can't think of a time & place where corporations have decided to do without government and do it all the work of raising, training & looking after a workforce themselves.

Maybe "corporation" is the wrong term for the megas? Maybe they are better thought of as allied nations that are all run on corporate lines.

Apart from private companies breaking off to bring up their own sets of citizens, Singapore is the closest thing to a RL analog to the State. It's probably why I picked Caldari when I started playing 10 years ago because the kind of culture which Caldari espouse is difficult for people from individualistic societies to grapple with, and I'm familiar with it. The government here has holding companies with stupid amounts of money which buy up to 15-20% shares in "Government-Linked Companies" and they have fingers in literally every sector of the economy. They may be listed on the stock market but they handle everything from maintaining the roads, manufacturing weapons, fixing stuff for the military, running telecoms, handling medical R&D and so on. The state may on one hand claim to support and encourage entrepreneurship and development of new IP, but when it finds out that an IP is useful for its own end, it will use the courts to summarily win the case and revoke the patent in question.

These GLCs are so large and so integral to the daily function of the country itself, that the state itself can sometimes be irrelevant. The various GLCs responsible for their own corners do develop their own individual internal cultures and can sometimes develop a rivalry which resembles the Home Office vs Foreign Office in the UK instead of the kind of competition between private companies.

All this is made possible thanks to an utilitarian dogma of pragmatism > all which focuses more on the collective good and steamrolls over individual interests in the name of that greater good. When things go badly, they will still chant the mantra of pragmatism even though the individualistic method would've produced better results.

It's also probably not a coincidence that some of my friends here are starting to complain about how the country is being run like a cyberpunk megacorp, and anyone who isn't making more than 800k/year is leading a lifestyle reminiscent of Shadowrun wageslaves. Give Singapore Inc. a look, and you'll come to a clearer understanding of the Caldari.

[Veiki]

Well, the British East India Company also comes to mind as a historical entity that was essentially the colonial government of India and a corporation that paid out dividends to shareholders.

In the context of Eve, the Caldari Megas came to the fore after the initial expansion out of Luminaire after the reconstruction of the VH-451 gate. If it was Caldari companies and capital that laid out all the cash for colonial enterprises such as the exploration, terraforming, infrastructure development, and transportation then it makes sense they would also end up as the de facto authorities on the worlds they founded.

The difference being that whereas Gallente worlds seemed to trend towards the creation of democratic governments on the their colonies the Caldari seemed fine having their colonial corporations remain as the authority and government.