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[Aria Jenneth]

The thing is, the canonical details of the Caldari State provide an image of a society that is not Nazi Germany or the Helghast, but it is one that is deeply authoritarian. By that I mean a society that considers itself under continuous external threat and which becomes one that is highly militarized; prioritizes security over concepts such as personal liberties or human rights; and which has the expectations that citizens conform to particular cultural and social norms in return for being rewarded with a middle-class existence.

So when Caldari are called fascists and thus prescribing to a political ideology whose core tenets was a belief that the individual, society, and the institutions of the state were not separate but one and the same then it is a jackboot that fits quite well.

I don't dispute that it fits Tibus Heth and the Templis Dragonaurs to a T. Both the Federation and State have now had their fascist moments and both of those moments have led to war. I also don't dispute that the Caldari flirt more or less continuously with fascism.

However, the Caldari system of government isn't nearly totalitarian enough (rule by a bunch of fractious corporations instead of a single strong man or party). They're too tolerant of dissent (even discounting the political differences among corporations, "jaalan" dissidents may have trouble finding work, but they're not normally in physical danger) and accepting of outsiders (as long as they either conform or keep to themselves-- or, in the case of the Khanid, of they just keep relatively quiet). They have literally fought wars to ensure the ability of outsiders to settle among them (the Waschi Uprising). Only the Patriots are even really fans of strict isolationism. And on and on.

We've had this conversation a few times before, Veiki. It hasn't become more true since the last time, and Heth is currently in bad odor and probably dead.

The fascists in Caldari society are the Templis. They keep popping up, and are probably as permanent a feature of Caldari life as Sani Sabik are for the Amarr, but the Caldari as a people and civilization are only ALMOST fascist.

[Veiki]

We've had this conversation a few times before, Veiki. It hasn't become more true since the last time, and Heth is currently in bad odor and probably dead.

Except it has become true in Eve: Source that the Megacorporations themselves are fascist entities. They control their citizens' birth, education, who they will marry, where they will work, incentivize what they should buy, the media they should consume, and have internal security apparatus that conduct constant surveillance to such an extent that it would make the Stasi go, "Wow, now that's a police state."

The Megas don't tolerate dissidents, just go read Methods of Torture: Caldari to see what they do with dissidents. They literally go full 1984 on you and toss you into a room 101 where they get into your head until you accept that you've always loved the corporation and always will.

Fascism is nationalism, authoritarian governance, and cultural conservatism taken towards a very specific conclusion. They are also essential elements of the Caldari and the Megas themselves as presented in the lore. The Provists were just a reactionary element of what happens when you take a society that already has deep roots of nationalism and acceptance of authoritarianism when it faces a crises -- the solution isn't a rejection of those values but rather a more extreme form of it.

[Veiki]

Also as an aside: Jin-Roh > Helghast.

[The Rook]

The Caldari State is very authoritarian and, while open to non-ethnic outsiders, demands all subjects to conform to the rules. Dissidence may be tolerated to some degree in order to avoid echo chambers that are bad for business, but I reckon someone questioning the system will be finding a new job deployment in blackbagistan quite soon.

Provists have tried to turn the authoritarian system into some national socialist State, with leader culture, racism and politics aimed at caring for the lower, working classes. So, yes, provists crank the fascism level up to 11. The others have it at a solid 7 to 9, depending on the megacorporation in question.

Edit: For roleplaying perspectives: We're discussing wide backgrounds here but ingame we're not playing an entire race or culture, we're playing individuals. Extraordinary individuals, most likely much more liberal than their ancestry, simply from the sum of experiences our characters are capable of - from multiple lives over the complete freedom to meet whoever whereever they want.

[Aria Jenneth]

The Megas don't tolerate dissidents, just go read Methods of Torture: Caldari to see what they do with dissidents. They literally go full 1984 on you and toss you into a room 101 where they get into your head until you accept that you've always loved the corporation and always will.

Fascism is nationalism, authoritarian governance, and cultural conservatism taken towards a very specific conclusion. They are also essential elements of the Caldari and the Megas themselves as presented in the lore. The Provists were just a reactionary element of what happens when you take a society that already has deep roots of nationalism and acceptance of authoritarianism when it faces a crises -- the solution isn't a rejection of those values but rather a more extreme form of it.

I wouldn't expect a fascist government to accept peers, particularly peers with which it itself is intermingled. I'd distinguish authoritarianism from totalitarianism by way of defining fascism, though concededly the definition can shrink or grow.

The guy in Methods of Torture isn't a dissident; he's a thief. A petty embezzler.


Edit:

So, we're not the only ones to have wrestled some with this. One of the problems with arguing about fascism, it seems, is that it is, itself, difficult to define.


Further edit:

So-- it seems like the Caldari fit some definitions of fascism, but not others. In almost all cases, they have at least some of the defining traits. However, they are not aggressively anti-feminist; they're not obsessed with internal threats; the charismatic leadership was present, but bit the big one a while back; they're not much inclined towards imperialism and expansionism; they're not fans of thoughtless action; their meritocracy is based more on actual merit than on personal heroism; they're not so much afraid of difference as insistent upon conformity or else that "difference" go live in its own town over there; and so on.

They've got a lot of the traits for sure, though.

[Veiki]

Sure fascism is hard to define not only because in modern usage it has particular connotations aside from what it was: a reactionary ideology that popped up in 1920's - 1940's Italy and adopted in part with a particular racial dimension on top in Nazi Germany.

Incoherent as it was as an ideology it did have particular traits such as being anti-democratic, rejecting democracy in favour of a top-down authority, bellicosity in foreign affairs, and a nationalism obsessed with preserving a "True" culture.

Now sure, the Provists could be described as trying to seek a fascist Caldari State but they would not have come into power and had the support they did have if the threads of authoritarianism, nationalism, rejection of democratic/liberal politics, and militarism weren't already present in Caldari society and the Megacorps.

And that's the thing, the very things that the corporate leadership use to legitimize and ensure their authority as a whole, are also the very same things that can bite them back in the ass when their methods of control fail in keeping the proletariat in line.

[The Rook]

What he was going to do with them, he can't remember. Probably nothing; stolen on a vague notion, the idea of gain, rather than for any concrete use. His ideas veered from blackmail to selling to simply putting the documents back.

When they came for him, he was still trying to decide. That's what hurt all the way through: He hadn't even done anything yet! He had taken the documents and he was sorry, but he wasn't a bad man. He wasn't a traitor.

They didn't believe him.

Petty thief - that depends on your viewpoint. In a private company it'd be embezzling, in a state corporation that can be seen as treason. I don't think political dissidents would be tolerated while thieves get mindfucked for months in an attempt to reprogram them.

Regarding the definitions of fascism: The State is a fictional concept that has been written and influenced by multiple sources. It has no equivalent in the real world, neither today nor in the past. Of course it does not fit existing forms of government to the T as it is something new. You can describe it as deeply authoritarian but it lacks a leader figure. It is fascist but not imperalistic nor completely segregated by race. It is hyper-capitalistic but loyal to its subjects.

[Aria Jenneth]

Sure fascism is hard to define not only because in modern usage it has particular connotations aside from what it was: a reactionary ideology that popped up in 1920's - 1940's Italy and adopted in part with a particular racial dimension on top in Nazi Germany.

Incoherent as it was as an ideology it did have particular traits such as being anti-democratic, rejecting democracy in favour of a top-down authority, bellicosity in foreign affairs, and a nationalism obsessed with preserving a "True" culture.

Now sure, the Provists could be described as trying to seek a fascist Caldari State but they would not have come into power and had the support they did have if the threads of authoritarianism, nationalism, rejection of democratic/liberal politics, and militarism weren't already present in Caldari society and the Megacorps.

And that's the thing, the very things that the corporate leadership use to legitimize and ensure their authority as a whole, are also the very same things that can bite them back in the ass when their methods of control fail in keeping the proletariat in line.

Sure, but the Federals, as it turned out at a certain period, also had a fascist bone in their body politic-- and theirs came to the fore much earlier. And I'd argue that due to the decentralized and rather fractious nature of Caldari governance, it's actually the Federation that has a higher likelihood of an abrupt surge of populist sentiment sweeping a fascist figure into power.

The Caldari tend to be relatively trusting of authority and elitist, rather than populist, in their cultural instincts. It takes a pretty major social breakdown for them to lift a Hitler analogue into power, and that's something that doesn't seem to come to them easily (we know of only the once).

Let me be clear: when I criticize the playing of reheated Helghast, what I'm criticizing is the decision to play an unambiguous space Nazi (exactly what the Helghast are in Killzone I, II, and III; I can't speak to the latest), while, I might add, expressing contempt for multiple ingredients in Caldari roleplay that have a pedigree going back WAY before Tony G's Space Hitler-- and before Source. Those more recent sources are canon, fine, but so is Cold Wind, so are the Achura, so's the Caldari sense of honor, and so is the upper crust of Caldari society that did indeed at one time seem to have read way the hell too much Ayn Rand. (Who the hell do you think the revolt that swept Heth into power was revolting against?! Bunch of Gallentean-inspired corporate types deciding to go all individualist in a society that demands everybody work towards the common good.)

If we need to resurrect the term "fascist" from its moribund status as an insult based on the ways it manifested in the mid-20th Century, fine, but you should be aware that we're now using it in a way that could apply to many authoritarian regimes both before that time and since.

The Rook is absolutely correct that The State is a fictional construct influenced by multiple sources. I'm perfectly happy to concede that there are fascist, and even Nazi, overtones (sometimes quiet, as in Caldari ship design, sometimes overt, as in Space Hitler), but there have been many, many others as well.

To my eye, the worst thing about a fictional fascist entity is simply this: it's boring as hell. Banal as paperwork and dull as dust. The fascist aspects of the State are the ones I'm least-interested in exploring. The interesting bits are in the nuances-- the ways the State functions, and has functioned, as a coherent theoretical entity. Not what makes the Caldari like the Helghast, but what makes them different in ways that matter.

I've always maintained that Eve is a setting short on both heroes and villains. Turning the Caldari into the goddamn Nazis makes for pretty unambiguous, and stupid, villains-- and that sells the whole civilization horribly short. They're both more sophisticated, and more interesting, than that, and while I admire Tom Horn and DK's willingness to go that route, I'm not even a little bit interested in following.

[Veiki]

Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.

[Aria Jenneth]

Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.

And yet Eve has the most sophisticated player base I've seen in an RPG. Seriously. It's part of why I'm back at it.

[Veiki]

Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.

And yet Eve has the most sophisticated player base I've seen in an RPG. Seriously. It's part of why I'm back at it.

I agree, but my point still stands.

[Kontrahage]

If you take the literal meaning of the word fascism -the principle of state- as a base to define it's meaning you will agree that the Caldari state is indeed fascist. All effort is focussed on it's value to the state and the citizens are judged by their conformity and contribution. The state is above all and everyone only exists to serve it.

In the specific case of the Caldari this system is, other than we have experienced with rl fascist systems, not organized following the Führerprinzip with one absolute dictator at the top but using a quasi feudal system:
Citizens serve a corp and are measured by their value to it, corps serve megacorps, megacorps guide the common effort of all caldari through a complicated and unclear system of interdependencies, negotiations and power games.

As said befor, the difference of the provists was that they were not simply fascist but national socialists, which the state otherwise is not.

How dissidents are treated is not been made canonically clear for the entire state. As with all things, except the basic devotion to the common struggle, this will be highly dependant on local custom. Kalaakiota will treat them differently than ishukone. In some areas they may simply be social outcasts without employment in others they may be executed. Same fot tubers, one corp may have run a campaign to promote their social acceptance while another still discriminates them as not real humans.

[Aria Jenneth]

Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.

And yet Eve has the most sophisticated player base I've seen in an RPG. Seriously. It's part of why I'm back at it.

I agree, but my point still stands.

Your point stands insofar as it's possible to do any trope or cultural portrayal badly.

Veiki, back when I started playing (and even more when the game launched), the lore on the Caldari was, to say the least, thin. We had hints, we had snippets, but there was far, far more of the lore that hadn't yet been developed. Hethler hadn't happened yet. Tony G's worst sin to that point was transposing the Scorpion and Raven in "Ruthless"-- which was widely recommended as required reading for Caldari roleplayers.

In the absence of solid data, people made up a bunch of stuff as they went along. Not all of it was the best worldbuilding, and even some of it that got adopted, sort of, hasn't ultimately made it into canon as written (kresh, apparently, is pretty much just a tree good for making Caldari types of tea). More to the point, there were piles and piles of it that were written as tentative, until CCP either adopted or rejected them-- but were allowed to stand for years uncontradicted.

Had Source and a bunch of the lore articles been released a decade earlier, a lot of stuff might have gone differently. As it was, a lot of stuff filtered in over time, and not all of it's filtered out yet. I'm not even sure all of it should. Eastern philosophical traditions actually provide a much stronger grounding for a Caldari and/or Achura-style society than Western "Enlightenment" rationalism, contain multiple possible "Way of the Winds" analogues, and explain neatly why the Caldari Wayists saw siblings in the Achur monasteries rather than rivals (that's a trait of Asian religions to this day-- Taoists and Buddhists may quibble over whose vision of the world is deeper, but neither will dispute that the other has a point. You can find Korean animist shrines on Buddhist temple grounds in the heart of Seoul).

Also, Eve's Eurocentric enough as it blasted well is. ("Brutor?" Seriously?) We do NOT need the Gallente and Caldari reduced to WWII French and Germans, and if you consider me a "weeaboo" for following an Asian thread where several have been laid out?

So. Goddamn. Be. It.

[The Rook]

Everything you're describing has literally nothing to do with the political system of the State, though, so I don't really see where the issue with it is.

[Veiki]

Also, Eve's Eurocentric enough as it blasted well is. ("Brutor?" Seriously?) We do NOT need the Gallente and Caldari reduced to WWII French and Germans, and if you consider me a "weeaboo" for following an Asian thread where several have been laid out?

So. Goddamn. Be. It.

I use the term weeabo in this context if one applies a direct one-to-one analogue with Japanese popular media culture, society, or history to seek in constructing an idealized image. Caldari Wayism might share some parallels with shintoism or buddhism but it is not a direct analogue, because the Caldari are Caldari and as such the context of their spiritualism lies in Caldari history and culture -- not Japanese. Or Korean. Or Chinese.

Apples and Oranges are not the same just because they are both fruits.