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That Federal member states retain control of their home systems, as seen exercised here?

Author Topic: cloning and stuff  (Read 3147 times)

Louella Dougans

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cloning and stuff
« on: 07 Dec 2015, 07:54 »

CCP people posted on Reddit, about how the capsule works, and other stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3vpw3m/lore_activated_clone_without_death/

Soft cloning is a thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3vpw3m/lore_activated_clone_without_death/cxq6nkr

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There is soft cloning, of course.
Backups taken via a non-destructive method that's way slower, meaning a capsuleer has to spend 2-4 hours in a clinic being "backed up".
Upon death outside the capsule, this backup can be used, however there's memory loss from the time the backup occurs up until the point of death.
The cost is incredibly prohibitive, even for most average capsuleers. You need to be very wealthy in order to be able to afford it. Outside of Capsuleers, it's utilized by Heads of State, very important political figures and the insanely rich to safeguard themselves.

Multiple cloning is not. Jump cloning is butchery.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3vpw3m/lore_activated_clone_without_death/cxpr0wr

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The TEBS (Transneural Echo Burn Scanner) on board the capsule is constantly monitoring the internal air gap pressure between the stage two hull of the capsule, and the Ovum (the capsule's fluid chamber). It's an incredibly sensitive piece of hardware, hence why it's not suitable for "mobile" use. A similar piece of hardware is used for DUST mercs, but not as advanced or sensitive as the hardware used in the capsule.
Under normal operation the air gap between the stage two hull and Ovum is kept at atmospheric standard (1.0bar / 100kPa / 14.50 psi). The TEBS is constantly polling this pressure at a rate of once every picosecond (a trillion times per second). If it sees a pressure drop of -0.01 bar, the TEBS will activate. Nominal trigger time for this is around five picoseconds. A few things happen when the TEBS is triggered, all in the space of about two nanoseconds after it triggers:
First, the TEBS performs a highly destructive brain scan of the capsuleer's entire skull. This takes a snapshot of the pilot's brain, recording the state of every single neuron. The TEBS also records a freeze frame of all vital statistics including blood pressure, heart rate and blood oxygen level, among other things. This can sometimes be in the order of several petabytes of information. When this happens, it's basically like putting the capsuleer’s head in the microwave for an hour then looking at the results. The brain is medium rare, is useless, and motor functions start to shut down as the subject vegetates.
In the following five nanoseconds the information from the scan is encrypted, packaged, and burst transmitted to the nearest relay on the fluid router network.
The TEBS is aware of which relay is closest, as it handshakes with every gate, station, control tower and outpost the capsuleer interacts with, remembering the CISC (Concord Identification Serial Code) of the last relay and holding it in case it happens to be needed.
Even if a pilot has been out in wormhole space for 6 months, the last CISC is stored, in case the pilot is podded. Once the data packet hits the fluid router network, it is immediately beamed to the capsuleer’s cloning facility as stipulated in their cloning contract. All being well the capsuleer will awaken in a CRU (Clone Reanimation Unit) with memory retention up until the point of the scan taking place once the packet is decrypted, unpacked and downloaded into the waiting clone.
Back at the site of the unlucky podding, once the TEBS has confirmed the data has been sent, it injects the capsuleer’s adrenal cortex with a massive dose of methylmercury neurotoxin, effectively euthanizing the pilot so that they don’t suffer from being freeze dried.
In terms of jumpcloning, it’s quite macabre too. It’s basically the same process, but on board a station. When a capsuleer is creating a jump clone, they’re basically setting a new clone up ready to receive their consciousness at the destination, and are arranging for the disposal of their dead body at the point of origin.
The only difference in the process is that they’re anaesthetised in the jump cloning facility, and once the TEBS fires in the jump cloning suite, they know nothing about it because they’re comatose and are immediately vegetated by the scan. They’re not injected with a neurotoxin immediately, instead, their implants are harvested and fitted to a new blank ready for a return trip, once this is done, they’re euthanized and disposed of.
This does mean, that yes, there are literal human butchers employed by cloning corporations who’s sole job it is to harvest implants and reconstitute biomass from dead capsuleers to create new blanks that are then resold to them.
In terms of the activation of two clones at the same time, it’s pretty much the most illegal thing in the cluster, and the regulation, plus hardware and software restrictions around it make it almost impossible. Even most outlaw organizations won’t go near it after the horror stories of mental breakdowns, people freaking out, and the mess that has to be cleaned up afterward. There’s been a couple of instances of it over the years, but it never ends well, and is usually very public.
The same goes for “Clonejacking” – Identity theft through transfer of consciousness into a clone that resembles someone else.

A bunch of other comments too, like how much control CONCORD has, which makes you wonder about why pirate faction capsuleers are a thing, and why "pirate faction loyalists" are allowed to exist as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3vpw3m/lore_activated_clone_without_death/cxq7eg9

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One thing that CONCORD needs to maintain is a basic level of control over capsuleers, something that's slowly slipping from their grasp. Their mandate is to maintain a basis of peace between the four empires, and in more recent years, to keep a basic level of control over capsuleers as a race and faction in their own right.
What better way to keep control than to have essential data pass through your communication network, rather than bypassing it completely? It's not necessary, the link could be direct, but it's law.
With regards to how it works, every gate, station, and structure that's a relay is linked to the nearest with a pair of fluid routers, this is actually one of the basics of how stargate technology works in terms of the gates talking to eachother and being paired to eachother to handshake and share data regarding the vessels passing through for verification reasons (there's more about how stargates work in EVE Source).
In simple terms, think of the fluid router network as a huge interstellar internet, with the fluid routers acting as invisible cables with zero latency and instant transmission across vast distances via quantum entanglement, and each relay point as a switch, using fiber links on board the relay structure to communicate between fluid routers and route traffic. This is also how the regional market system works too, and how your wallets, EVEmail, and all other comms also work.
The entire reason for the design being like this is for security and tracking purposes, so that communications can be controlled, intercepted, and severed if need be. Remember that we're talking about a network that spans four factions, plus all their subfactions and internal organizations, who for the best part, are at odds with eachother and value their border security.
The network has quite literally been designed to be shut off in part or in whole if sections of it need to be isolated from eachother.

Lots of smaller comments too, about the Jove, about the Broker and his stuff (apparently he was wealthier than several of the nation states in EVE), and other things too.

I thought about using an existing thread, but they were all terrible.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #1 on: 07 Dec 2015, 08:40 »

Nice info dump
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #2 on: 07 Dec 2015, 10:08 »

Clonejacking you say?

I smell great cyber-biopunk potential right there.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #3 on: 07 Dec 2015, 12:06 »

It's interesting how they describe Soft Cloning as being prohibitively expensive, even to the average capsuleer. Makes me wonder how much it costs per 'session' of download? It'd have to be a pretty high figure. How does the 'average' Capsuleer even earn these days?
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #4 on: 07 Dec 2015, 13:27 »

Multiple cloning is not. Jump cloning is butchery.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3vpw3m/lore_activated_clone_without_death/cxpr0wr

I appreciate that they made multiple cloning massively illegal and drama-prone (hugely understandable, and works well with my character arc) as opposed to arbitrarily impossible.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #5 on: 07 Dec 2015, 13:35 »

It means that those costs have to cover something, and I am now thinking that just running the scanner and paying for the personnel quite doesn't add up very high.

Maybe the infrastructure used to store the data and keep it in a certain valid state is what costs a lot. Not sure.

It would also imply that Zainou pays a fortune for the upkeep of their infomorph CEO...
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Utari Onzo

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #6 on: 07 Dec 2015, 13:54 »

It means that those costs have to cover something, and I am now thinking that just running the scanner and paying for the personnel quite doesn't add up very high.

Maybe the infrastructure used to store the data and keep it in a certain valid state is what costs a lot. Not sure.

It would also imply that Zainou pays a fortune for the upkeep of their infomorph CEO...

That makes the most sense, upkeep of the datastorage as opposed to the equipment and personel itself. In the real world the analogy I can best describe is that the fee for keeping scaffolding up and reguarly inspected usually turns out to be the biggest cost then erecting and dismantling it plus labour in larger jobs.

There's probably better anaologies but that one I can immediatly point to.
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Teinyhr

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #7 on: 07 Dec 2015, 19:09 »

It's interesting how they describe Soft Cloning as being prohibitively expensive, even to the average capsuleer. Makes me wonder how much it costs per 'session' of download? It'd have to be a pretty high figure. How does the 'average' Capsuleer even earn these days?

Depends on if it's  IC oor OOC. IC I would guess that an average capsuleer, on a government or other faction payroll makes maybe a billion ISK a year, which is a pittance OOC these days. I think. I have a few billion ISK, most of it in assets and feel like I'm piss poor most of the time at least.

As to what would make it prohibitively expensive might be something as mundane as software patents or something like that. Maybe there's a ridiculous license fee on a delicate non-intrusive scanning technique, or the technology itself is incredibly rare / pieced from Jove tech and as such is not only in constant demand but by wealthy people, meaning supply is less than the demand = skyrocketing prices.
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Vieve

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #8 on: 11 Dec 2015, 20:53 »

Multiple cloning is not. Jump cloning is butchery.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3vpw3m/lore_activated_clone_without_death/cxpr0wr

I appreciate that they made multiple cloning massively illegal and drama-prone (hugely understandable, and works well with my character arc) as opposed to arbitrarily impossible.

Massively illegal and drama-prone is best drama.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #9 on: 13 Dec 2015, 15:14 »

Looks good to me, glad they've settled down on some of those previously 'contested' versions of things

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Gaven Lok ri

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #10 on: 14 Dec 2015, 01:09 »

So, fun question now that they finally ruled on these sorts of things: How long till the effect of massive cloning on inheritances comes into play?

What does it mean that cloned Holder is *never* going to give up their territory to their kid? 
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Utari Onzo

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #11 on: 14 Dec 2015, 01:21 »

So, fun question now that they finally ruled on these sorts of things: How long till the effect of massive cloning on inheritances comes into play?

What does it mean that cloned Holder is *never* going to give up their territory to their kid?

This one interests me also, considering the dynamics of the Gallius family with both the Holder and the heir being capsuleers.

I can imagine with it being 10-15 ish years in, the issue is one of those smouldering disputes that will need answering but is so sticky the authorities are trying to ignore it for as long as possible.

"Court Chamberlain, we really should do something about this cloning thing."

"Mm yes, put it on the back burner for now though, it's awfully messy and I'm not sure the Theology Council or the Emperor wants to deal with it when we have Drifters to fight."
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Gaven Lok ri

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #12 on: 14 Dec 2015, 20:28 »

Your two real options are a combination of forced retirements and making it difficult for one person to own more than one title or a drive for increased growth either internally or externally.

The former seems exceedingly unlikely to happen. But I could see it as a drive for pushing Amarr in particular back into an expansionist mode, since heirs will likely become quite annoyed if they never receive titles.
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Silver Night

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #13 on: 14 Dec 2015, 21:26 »

Your two real options are a combination of forced retirements and making it difficult for one person to own more than one title or a drive for increased growth either internally or externally.

The former seems exceedingly unlikely to happen. But I could see it as a drive for pushing Amarr in particular back into an expansionist mode, since heirs will likely become quite annoyed if they never receive titles.

Could be that the advent of life-prolonging cybernetics was part of the drive behind the last time they got really aggressively expansionist (or the driving force behind it long term even).

Saede Riordan

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Re: cloning and stuff
« Reply #14 on: 19 Dec 2015, 11:37 »

Good to know I'm still regularly violating the lore.  :yar:

I also like the illegality of what she's doing, and the problems it has the potential to cause.
« Last Edit: 19 Dec 2015, 11:40 by Saede Riordan »
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