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That Blood Raiders as a faction are motivated principally by the desire to draw closer to the Red God? (The Burning Life, p. 56)

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Author Topic: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!  (Read 4859 times)

Mizhara

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #30 on: 22 Nov 2015, 16:21 »

Hrm. You sure about that? People into the crueler end of genre fiction/music are frequently turned off in a big way by the genuine article unless there's some sort of ideological alignment going on.

Ain't that the truth. I don't think I ever meet nicer and friendlier people than when I'm at various metal gatherings. It's one thing to cheer and rock the fuck out when the vocalist growls in detail about how to perform the (mythical) blood eagle, and another thing entirely to imply it'd be cool in real life.
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Calliste Dauvienne

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #31 on: 23 Nov 2015, 00:01 »

How can you combat something whose force and effects you can feel and see, but which you cannot fully describe or comprehend?

Ruthlessly.

The Caldari have been doing it for, literally, centuries, and a lot of their larger, hairier warts (e.g., borderline-racist selective breeding via officially-arranged marriage) seem linked psychologically and culturally to a frantic desire NOT to assimilate with the Gallente. They'd probably be a lot less militant about being themselves if they didn't have to work so hard at it.

Yes true, and I would agree. I was just trying to point out that it is particularly difficult to define deliberate agency or identifiable actors on the part of the Federation as regards cultural assimilation or adoption of what might be described as its normative ideologies and values. Because its core ideologies and values are premised on individualism, freedoms of expression, and liberalism it assimilates other cultures because enough individuals choose to adopt those values and become Gallente. Which for the Gallente itself isn't even a racial or ethnic term but a humanist cultural identifier since the word itself for the Gallente was a multi-ethnic identifier they used when they globalized under a single unified culture.

That's what makes the Federation so pervasive and effective at cultural assimilation: anyone can decide to be Gallente if they want to, regardless of their genetics or culture, and those genetics and culture then become Gallente just as all the rest. It's not assimilation as much as a form of multiculturalism unified under a singular dominant ideological basis and not ethnicity or race.

In a sense, the Gallente and the Federation just by being as they are manage to exert a real cultural pressure that everyone else reacts to. To prevent it creates an absurdity for the Gallente, because what can you tell them?

"Please stop being a society of trillions of networked individuals in an information society continuously expressing your own personal values and ideas; or sharing the products and content of your arts, media, technology, sciences, and entertainment with everyone else so people stop deciding of their own free will to accept Gallentean ideology and values"?

Will that view be shared on the IGS that depends on the FTL communications technology the Gallente themselves invented and developed that allows others to express their own personal values and ideas?

So yes, with the Caldari as your example in order to resist that process then creating a rigidly hierarchical political/societal/economic system with the ugly warts of top down measures of repression that can result in things like militarism, selective breeding programs, forced marriages, racial xenophobia, and homophobia is a good way to go.

Curiously this also ties into the nature of the Gallentean meta-game. Because as an example, the most accurate reflection of what the Caldari are like as written in their actual lore and in Source is Diana Kim. Yet the content of what that character says, full of militarism, anti-liberal ideology, racist thinking, and homophobia is exactly what is written about the Caldari.

To me, the reason the character is really met with such constant criticism is because other players don't enjoy having shown how completely unlike the State is to the Gallente, and thus to modern Western Liberal thinking, values and ideology. Because there is very little objectionable to the nature of the content expressed by the Diana Kim character as regards the written lore of the Caldari.

The Federation is just a political entity with identifiable borders, but the Gallente culture is something else. One without borders that resides in the realm of information, memes, and ideas to reproduce itself among humanity. An inability to divorce oneself from any form of liberal ideology, individualism, or patterns of modern Western thought as a player from the character can be seen only as the acceptance of Gallentean values on some level, because it remains only the Gallente that are written in the lore as having direct parity with those ideas.

Which is why I've always found it strange over the years when players either directly or indirectly complain about how their respective faction is unappealing in the metagame sense to a modern audience. Because if one really wanted to be part of a faction with strong parities to modern Western civilization then why not have chosen the Federation in the first place? Any attempts to bring other factions "in-line" in that sense would mean essentially they have begun the process of Gallentean cultural assimilation/integration towards its liberal, individualist worldviews.

That's why all the other major factions and cultures feature elements that could be considered repressive, authoritarian, and generally counter to modern liberal culture because then they'd just be Gallente. Even the Jin-Mei that are integrated into the Federation practice a discriminatory caste driven society and defend it in order to maintain their own cultural identity.

You are aware that homeostasis is a property of Complex Adaptive Systems? All human societies are by necessity such systems.

I don't think that analysis is either correct or helpful.

It was an in-character analogy using systems theory, and sure a good CAS needs some degree of negative feedback otherwise you end up with cancer or something. 

Calliste as a character was just trying to explain that, as a society, the Gallente and the Federation is one built on rapid technological progress and societal change: on positive feedback.

This is borne historically in fact when compared to a place like the Empire.

The Gallente took 765 years from constructing their first stargate to where they are now. The Empire took 2063 years. The disparity is even greater when it is taken from the time of planetary unification with the Gallente taking 890 years compared to 2982 years for the Empire.

The Federation itself as an entity is only about 200 years old. It has grown from a treaty organization composed of a diffuse confederacy of independent homeworlds and their colonies to a constitutional supranational entity with stable political structures and robust institutions that effectively manages to represent the varied interests of trillions of people and hundreds if not thousands of different member-states.

And those internal networks and structures are all able to change and adapt to meet new needs and developments far more rapidly than in other societies. When the State invaded the Federation, the pretty rapid response to it was the creation of a new Agency in the SDII/Black Eagles and the expansion of its military industries -- to the point it now has a private corporation in Roden Shipyards providing military security in addition to other agencies.

An Emperor trying to make similar changes to nature of the Empire faces institutions like the Theology Council, the Privy Council and the Heirs, the House Holders, and an Imperial bureaucracy that even in the lore itself is described as, "Byzantine" in its nature as impediments to change, which together act in the analogy as the negative feedback in a homeostatic system.

Even the Caldari ended up rejecting the reform attempts of Tibus Heth and the CPD because it seems its culture, corporate structures, and executive stakeholders all similarly resist any attempts at uniform change of their society.

It's not that change doesn't happen in societies not the Federation, it's just that comparatively their rates of progress, change and adaptation are far slower because they are structured differently.

And that seems reflected in the lore.
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #32 on: 23 Nov 2015, 01:13 »

Curiously this also ties into the nature of the Gallentean meta-game. Because as an example, the most accurate reflection of what the Caldari are like as written in their actual lore and in Source is Diana Kim. Yet the content of what that character says, full of militarism, anti-liberal ideology, racist thinking, and homophobia is exactly what is written about the Caldari.

To me, the reason the character is really met with such constant criticism is because other players don't enjoy having shown how completely unlike the State is to the Gallente, and thus to modern Western Liberal thinking, values and ideology. Because there is very little objectionable to the nature of the content expressed by the Diana Kim character as regards the written lore of the Caldari.

Careful.

Diana Kim is a carefully-designed (arguably too much so; she could maybe do with a few more paths for development), very badly wounded character. Her player runs her as a rage-addled victim of trauma, not as a clear-headed example of even the most extreme forms of Caldari ideology. She does not make a good Caldari, or even a good Dragonaur, and she's not supposed to.

From our (open, Western) perspectives, the Caldari (esp. Patriots) are, and here's an important distinction, nearly fascists. They're a relatively closed, ordered, self-concerned society. They care mostly for their own people and their own interests, and don't much like interlopers of any sort. They see life as a crucible, burning away weakness, and they're determined to pass every test to come their way, in the way of their ancestors.

There's a gap, though, between even Patriot attitudes and those of the Provists/Templis Dragonaurs/Tibus Heth, whose militant xenophobia has played key roles in the start of both Caldari/Gallente wars as well as other fun historical events such as the Waschi Uprising. Those are the bona fide fascists. Bear in mind that those groups/persons are presently unpopular in the State. Diana Kim would be a pariah, presently, even if she were a paragon of Provist politics.

The Caldari grumpily tolerate dissent (jaalan). They also grumpily permit others to visit the State, and even to become Caldari themselves. They allow certain others (Khanid) to practice a foreign religion in private. They shelter (but also isolate) indigenous cultures that accept their protection. And on and on.

It's not a free or open society, but it's not what Tibus Heth would have made of it.

It's probably pretty short on capsuleer fan clubs generally, but among those with the time and information access I'd guess that highly sanitized versions of various Caldari capsuleers get a fair amount of attention. Propaganda FTW. Matoko Priano, Pieter Tuulinen, etc., may come out smelling like Raata roses. Even poor Diana might have her remarks aggressively edited, and come off quite differently-- though probably not. She's kind of a reminder of the not-wholly-unmitigated disaster that was Heth, these days.

Caldari capsuleers would naturally and necessarily be or become more cosmopolitan than those who remain citizens of the corporate system, though, and I suspect the State's careful how much information on their anarchic doings gets out.
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2015, 01:25 by Aria Jenneth »
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #33 on: 23 Nov 2015, 03:13 »

There is a good reason that the State places strict restrictions for baselining on capsuleers.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #34 on: 23 Nov 2015, 05:36 »

Uh yeah, the Caldari State is all but fascist. Heth regime totally was though.

I think the word has turned rather bloated and vague over the years and we tend to associate it to everything that comes more or less close to authoritarianism.

The State is authoritarian. The State sure shares a few facets defining fascism, like the corporatist side of it, or the national pride / militarization of the youth.

But the State doesn't share many core components of fascism, like the almighty, centralized, authoritarian state above the corporations, for example, as well as the central figurehead, like it was the case with the dragonaurs.

The State is before everything much closer to what you will find in shadowrun corporations like Renraku, rather than true european fascism.

It is also good to remember that while the gallente and caldari systems are on the opposite spectrum in terms of authoritarianism vs libertarianism, they are on the exact same page on the capitalist/liberal mindset, and that is the origin of their conflict (which also explains why they decided to go in opposite directions in terms of government).

Quote
Which is why I've always found it strange over the years when players either directly or indirectly complain about how their respective faction is unappealing in the metagame sense to a modern audience. Because if one really wanted to be part of a faction with strong parities to modern Western civilization then why not have chosen the Federation in the first place? Any attempts to bring other factions "in-line" in that sense would mean essentially they have begun the process of Gallentean cultural assimilation/integration towards its liberal, individualist worldviews.

Personally I have always loved the gallente lore. If I had to start again I would pick up gallente. That's also why I shamelessly inserted a bit of it in my own RP.

However, I have never really been unhappy about the appeal of my respective faction per se, or at least not for the reasons you describe. What annoys me most with most other factions is that they often fail to depict what a DIFFERENT but MODERN society would look like.

The Amarr often fail to check that mark, as well as the Minmatar. We often forget that them too, are as advanced as the others, and yet the depiction we get of them is often... medieval compared to the gallente.

That, I dislike heavily. Them too have access to the same level of technology and societal progress.

That's also why on the little RP Aria and others got on Dam-Torsad, the only post and setting I introduced was totally high-tech/blade runnerish. Why would the Amarr not get those fancy societal doodads too?
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2015, 05:39 by Lyn Farel »
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #35 on: 23 Nov 2015, 10:47 »

(That said, there's undoubtedly a fan base for "cute but insane.")

In what is best described as a hilarious case of immense irony, odds are, most of that fanbase is probably from the Federation.

Morwen:

I'm going to suggest that there are likely those who look quite favorably upon Morwen for her past humanitarian relief efforts, as well as organizational talents of a scientific sort. In particular involvement with AJ, and even Syne if one's a fan who appreciates the sciences and the good Capsuleers can be responsible for when disasters occur.

I would imagine these things would be tempered by her earlier history of piracy and acute martial prowess.

Since I got namedropped, might as well chip in.

---
Demographics and Views:
Morwen has been around as a capsuleer long enough that she likely has a 'fanbase' of some sort in most parts of high- and low-sec regardless of which empire it is, so I'm going to break things down a bit. Generally speaking, most of Morwen's fanbase or following is centered around her frequently un-capsuleer-like behavior. The majority of attention directed at her by baseliners is probably positive: the extensive humanitarian and anti-Nation efforts, her musical talents, the general drive to act (in public) like she's just a normal, regular person... these are all attractive to a variety of people. There are definitely plenty of reasons for baseliners to dislike her of course: her time spent as a pirate will have irritated some folks, and it's likely that most pirate entities are not particularly fond of her for their own reasons. Morwen has been known to engage with followers, though rarely in traditional "celebrity" contexts; she prefers lower-key methods that reinforce the emphasis she places on appearing "normal."

The Federation is where the bulk of Morwen's fanbase would likely originate, not just because she was born and raised in Caille, but also because she had regular musical performances prior becoming a capsuleer and had a small following there already - capsuleer training merely increased her exposure and increased the size of her fanbase as a result. Her humanitarian work and recent tournament piloting have also contributed heavily to the increase in size of her Federation fanbase.

In the State, if she has any following it is likely to be very small, primarily centered among the more Liberal groups, and specifically for her humanitarian work with the Hearth and Home relief effort post-Highlander. Among the Practical and Patriot blocs, if there aren't tiny specks of grudging respect or acknowledgement for the H&H work, she's either unheard-of or not necessarily well thought of, given her brief stint with Veto, and its affiliation with the Guristas. It's possible she might have people being aware of her through the fanbases of Caldari capsuleers such as Jude Kopenhagen (whom she flew with in Ghost Festival, and is a casual acquaintance of), Katrina Oniseki (a fellow moderator of the Summit), Makoto Priano (via Consortium work w/r/t the Drifters) and a number of the Pyre Falcon crew, particularly Pieter and Veikitamo.

In the Empire, I'm a little less certain. If she has a following there, it could go either way, and likely is a mixture of positive and negative views. She's had connections in the past to plenty of people the Empire wouldn't (or doesn't) care for, but has also gone well out of her way to redeem herself and has made a fair amount of progress in the last 4 years, and her appearance in the Succession Trials as a Retainer probably didn't hurt, either. In the Kingdom, she's probably got more people aware of her there in varying positions in the food chain. She has some friends among the more liberally-minded social elite, as well as the local average citizenry in the city nearby the Tyrathlion estates, but also quite a few enemies. (Three of whom met their rather untimely but quite deserved demises about a month prior to this post; I've been a bit lazy and haven't finished the writing for that stuff. She didn't do it, though. Honest.)

In the Republic, she definitely has defenders and detractors. Morwen was pretty outspoken against slavery in her early years, and has been known on multiple occasions to rescue and repatriate slaves rescued from facilities and vessels in space. On the other hand, over the last four years she has become rather close with the Empire and Kingdom, and most people in the Republic would object to this on principle, despite her work in the past. Some supporters might point to the fact that even during that period she had a number of close and well-known friends among the TLF, like Ava Starfire and Kalaratiri Saskia as a case of "well, they liked her and stayed friends with her, she can't be that bad" - but opponents would probably use the same fact to attack her as well as Ava and Kala.


Regarding "Shipping":
Morwen has never hid nor shied away from being bisexual, and as a result has probably been "shipped" with quite a few of her peers of both genders. In addition, Morwen's occasional modeling stints (of varying sorts; none within the last two years, and reportedly encouraged primarily by her now-deceased fianceé Repentence and their close friend Kimochi) have have done little but encourage further generation of material.

Her age-old friendship with Aldrith Shutaq will have spawned no small number of lurid tales, and her place as a Retainer for Aldrith's unsuccessful bid to become the Champion for Aritcio Kor-Azor in the Amarrian Succession Trials would have served only to renew interest in this particular pairing. A small number of other men may have been paired with her by the shipping community over the years, including people like Esna Pitoojee, a couple of True Slave Foundations pilots (Degen Sankriga and Kybernetes Moros, in particular), and because of GalNet's particularly odd fixation on pairing people who hate each other, Seriphyn Inhonores.

When it comes to women, Morwen will have been "shipped" with a very large portion of her peers over the years. Beyond the ones based on publicly-acknowledged romantic relationships with other capsuleers (including Repentence Tyrathlion and Lilly Terranova), notable pairings include a significant portion of her friends and acquaintances, including fellow Ghost Festival and Veto pilots Kimochi Rendar and Inara Subaka, current corpmates Steffanie Saissore and Kaaeliaa, Pyre Falcon's Veikitamo Gesakaarin, TLF pilots Ava Starfire and Kalaratiri Saskia, ex-Fractionites Jekaterine and Punx Evangeline, fellow musicians Sakaane Eionell and Catherine "Quintrala" Delorois, and potentially the wives of two of the men she has been "shipped" with - Mitara Newelle and Rin Kaelestria (married to Aldrith Shutaq and Esna Pitoojee, respectively). Similar to the case with Seriphyn Inhonores, GalNet's fixation on pairing people who hate each other together will have resulted in a not-insignificant quantity of material involving Morwen and Diana Kim.

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I'd post a theorized thing about someone else but I need to finish packing!
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2015, 11:08 by Morwen Lagann »
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Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Louella Dougans

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #36 on: 23 Nov 2015, 13:52 »

Enough people consider Louella to be a Saint, for the Theology Council to have taken notice.

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Calliste Dauvienne

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #37 on: 25 Nov 2015, 21:05 »

Full Disclosure: I was just practicing my pro-Gallente loyalist kayfabe and ability to defend my fictional choices with poorly chosen real-world and intellectual analogies.
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Havohej

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #38 on: 30 Nov 2015, 14:07 »

Havohej is vice president of the Samira Kernher fan club.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #39 on: 30 Nov 2015, 16:41 »

:|

... who's the president?
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #40 on: 30 Nov 2015, 18:42 »

Katrina Oniseki, under the GalNet pseudonym "Y0n1s".
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Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Gesakaarin

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #41 on: 01 Dec 2015, 06:36 »

Veikitamo Gesakaarin:

* First came to prominence to Gallente fan club communities after her nano-second buyout of a Roden Shipyards subsidiary; CPD Commissarial Audit of a Wiyrkomi subsidiary, and formation of the Pyre Falcon Defence and Security corporation between YC 114 - 115.

* Once called her fans in the Federation as, "A bunch of fucking BDSM enthusiasts that seem to enjoy my abuse." on social media in reference to her apparent cult following among Gallente.

* Appears to have a strongly acerbic and vitriolic hate-love relationship with her fanbase.

* Her apparent narcotics addictions and homosexuality apparently stem from her use of Federal social media to post images of as one description put it, "A fucking mountain of Crash," Along with sexually suggestive shots of Achuran, "Secretaries," described only with:  ;)

* When questioned about her openness with her personal life, often responds with, "Look I have no time for HeiianDongs when I'm applying the jackboots medium style to some clown." This popularized the #HeiianDongs social media descriptor along with image macros of Veikitamo involving jackboots and clowns.

* Sells an energy/sports drink in the Federation made popular with her fans called Salté. It is described as having been bottled with, "Only the finest and best electrolytes." Commercials for the product often parody Gallente perfume ads in which she slowly licks the tears off the face of various crying models.

*Once started a crowdfunding kickstarter for a personal autobiography set at 50 Million ISK in what many assumed was a joke. Remarkably, the target goal was reached and within six months Veikitamo Gesakaarin's autobiography titled, "My Struggle," was published and made available as a 3,436 page tome in digital print in which a reader was unable to skip a page in a period shorter than two minutes.

Beginning with, "My Father was a manic-depressive marionette artist and my Mother was a syphilitic prostitute." The biography begun to detail a life exposed to domestic violence, personal struggles with alcoholism, drug, and sex addiction in addition to a rise from a disenfranchised youth to top corporate executive involving blackmail, extortion, kidnap, and murder. The biography ended with, "Actually I was born a tube-child so everything you have just read must be bullshit. Thank you for the ISK and wasting 114.5 or more hours of your life."

* During what appeared to be a, "Defection," to the Federation in YC 116, Veikitamo excited fans by offering a chance to be part of an, "Intimate concert," So long as they wore a fedora hat. Held at the Saravellin Theatre in Chantrousse, Veikitamo played Dausienne's concerto for piano No. 36 in C major known more commonly as, "A death by duty's ditch." Upon conclusion of playing she stood, donned a gas mask, and watched as the locked theatre was doused in organophosphate killing 6,456 fans.

When asked about the incident the only response was, "I fucking hate fedora wearing hipsters, don't you?"

* Even after the above incident her fanbase appears to remain constant if one believes the analytics of her social media followers in the Federation.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #42 on: 01 Dec 2015, 09:20 »

I think I just got a papercut reading that last one.

 :lol:
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Jev North

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #43 on: 01 Dec 2015, 10:30 »

"Hello. Yes, this is her. I.. mh-h. Mh. A fan club? Really..? Really. Despite my best efforts to stay low-profile. Really. I see. Yes. Do you.. do you have some kind of club house? Central gatheri-.. I see. Yes. Could you message me the coordinates, for orbital bom-.. an orbital signing ses-, I mean, for let's say, a signing session? Thank you. I'll be right over."
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Worldbuilding: Fan Clubs!
« Reply #44 on: 01 Dec 2015, 16:05 »

I think I just got a papercut reading that last one.

 :lol:

Veikitamo Edge Theorems are a branch of non-euclidean geometry used to describe the edginess of multi-dimensional structures.
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