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[Vikarion]

Due to a recent event which I shan't talk about (it was modded when I did) I've decided that my previous adherence to a hard IC/OOC divide is largely impossible to maintain in a "lowest common denominator environment" such as Eve.

Though I understand the reasons for it, trying to maintain such a divide, when another may violate it at will, will prove detrimental to my corporation, to my character, and to the faction I RP as a member of. Ultimately, it proves a fatal weakness in the attempt to accumulate power, and I value being able to exercise power in Eve over literary perfection.

Therefore, if there is information in the public domain, I will consider it possible knowledge for my character. If I feel that my character should know something, I will make an effort to contact involved parties, but, in any case, I will not be limited to those "things that my character could reasonably know" if my character not possessing knowledge I possess OOC could lead to his faction/corporation/himself being harmed.

I'd like to apologize to Jade for being so hard on him about this - I didn't really understand where he was coming from in regards to this matter until a month or two ago, and recent events have further informed this decision.

If you feel that you cannot RP with a person who has such a stance, I understand completely. This is a choice I am making that is designed to bring me closer to certain goals, and disagreements are valid. After all, I had much the same policy when I held to a distinct line.

[Havohej]

Due to a recent event which I shan't talk about (it was modded when I did) I've decided that my previous adherence to a hard IC/OOC divide is largely impossible to maintain in a "lowest common denominator environment" such as Eve.

"They can't behave so I won't" is a bit of a cop-out.

[Saede Riordan]

Due to a recent event which I shan't talk about (it was modded when I did) I've decided that my previous adherence to a hard IC/OOC divide is largely impossible to maintain in a "lowest common denominator environment" such as Eve.

"They can't behave so I won't" is a bit of a cop-out.

that doesn't sound entirely accurate, its like, there will reach a point where you have people that depend on you, and if your enemies aren't playing by your rules, it will but your people in harms way. If they don't play by the rules, and you really care about protecting the people you fly with, then its almost your responsibility to not play by the rules either. Its a strange stance to think about, but it makes more sense then it doesn't.

[Vikarion]

Due to a recent event which I shan't talk about (it was modded when I did) I've decided that my previous adherence to a hard IC/OOC divide is largely impossible to maintain in a "lowest common denominator environment" such as Eve.

"They can't behave so I won't" is a bit of a cop-out.

Fair enough, I'm copping out. I think this concludes our useful conversation from here on out.

In a more general sense, I don't see how it's fair to LDIS, to myself, or others I fly with if those who want to use methods unacceptable to the IC/OOC divide are allowed a permanent advantage.

FAKE EDIT: Nikita has the long and short of it, I think.

[Havohej]

that doesn't sound entirely accurate, its like, there will reach a point where you have people that depend on you, and if your enemies aren't playing by your rules, it will but your people in harms way.

In what harm's way?  Hurt feelings?  IC/OOC divide has shit all to do with pvp, so you can't be talking about that...  If you get your feelings hurt when you RP with someone, stop RPing with them.  Pew pew or ignore them altogether.

If they don't play by the rules, and you really care about protecting the people you fly with, then its almost your responsibility to not play by the rules either. Its a strange stance to think about, but it makes more sense then it doesn't.

I disagree for the reason detailed above.  I don't see the relevance of not 'playing by the rules' in terms of a division of IC and OOC persona with regard to "protecting" the people you RP with.  You can only hold someone's hand but so much, you can't protect them from the consequences of social interactions or other peoples' actions.  In this instance, Vikarion deciding to not 'play by the rules' does not protect the people he flies with from other people not 'playing by the rules.'  Now he's just one more guy not 'playing by the rules'.

Fair enough, I'm copping out. I think this concludes our useful conversation from here on out.

In a more general sense, I don't see how it's fair to LDIS, to myself, or others I fly with if those who want to use methods unacceptable to the IC/OOC divide are allowed a permanent advantage.

What advantage?  Outline for me the advantage one gains by being regarded as undesirable to interact with by the greater part of the RP community that would put you and LDIS on the back foot if you didn't make yourself just as undesirable.  ISK?  PvP Prowess?  Social standing?  Reputation IC?  Reputation OOC?  I don't see it...

[Kimochi Rendar]

If you feel that you need to metagame in order to protect your character, corp, faction etc from whatever threats you percieve then that's fair enough. Don't be surprised or start to complain when people refuse to interact with you because of it however, because you'll have only yourself to blame.

Of course the other way to look at it is that if you are getting your character into a position where OOC knowledge of his IC actions could damage his or his corp's integrity then you (and by extention, Vik) are Doing It Wrong and you need to seriously look at the kind of RP you are getting involved with and adjust things accordingly. Just a thought.

[Morwen Lagann]

Given some of Vik's past experiences that lead up to the (subsequently moderated) post/thread that he made, I cannot particularly blame him for the actions has taken to stay one step ahead in the Cover Your Ass game.

I think people are overlooking Vik's record here -- yes, he'll wardec you for shits and giggles just because he can, yes, he can act quite the twat at times (so can the rest of us), but FFS, he has a pretty decent helping of this thing called common sense. You know, the stuff that would make him think under a fair majority of circumstances, "right, I can see how Vik might know about these things from these posts," and then go get off his ass and actually ask the author to check if that'd make sense, unlike a number of other parties who have a long and messy history of being complete assholes in this respect.

Due to a recent event which I shan't talk about (it was modded when I did) I've decided that my previous adherence to a hard IC/OOC divide is largely impossible to maintain in a "lowest common denominator environment" such as Eve.

"They can't behave so I won't" is a bit of a cop-out.

It's not so much of a cop-out as it is an escalation of force. If someone started pulling crap with me like what they're pulling with Vik, I'd probably do the same thing too. The opposing party in this instance does have a history of being easily offended and over-sensitive (OOC, even) about things that should only garner the sort of response they do IC, and of doing the sort of thing that Vik made a CYA thread about.

That all said, I'm not sure the paradigm shift is entirely necessary - this only seems to be a particular problem when it comes to one or two people for you, Vik, why not just employ this tactic with them and "business as usual" with others who you know are more or less trustworthy in this regard? You and I haven't always gotten along, but I'd be hesitant to say we didn't at least see the other person as reasonable.

To everyone in general: is there some good reason that everyone needs to act like a bag of dicks to each other with this sort of thing? One person pulls out the metagaming tactic, and it snowballs from there. It's like a bunch of children who can't figure out the concept of cause and effect, and how actions have conseque--oh, right. :lolrpers:

[Mizhara]

So making sure there's a 'no lurking' rule in effect on any character of Vik's... check.
Making sure there's no posts/conversation made anywhere Vik might OoC find out... check.
... now to figure out how to block specific people from blogs.


On a more serious note... meh. Just meh.

There's never a good reason for this kind of escalation.

[Vikarion]

Given some of Vik's past experiences that lead up to the (subsequently moderated) post/thread that he made, I cannot particularly blame him for the actions has taken to stay one step ahead in the Cover Your Ass game.

I think people are overlooking Vik's record here -- yes, he'll wardec you for shits and giggles just because he can, yes, he can act quite the twat at times (so can the rest of us), but FFS, he has a pretty decent helping of this thing called common sense. You know, the stuff that would make him think under a fair majority of circumstances, "right, I can see how Vik might know about these things from these posts," and then go get off his ass and actually ask the author to check if that'd make sense, unlike a number of other parties who have a long and messy history of being complete assholes in this respect.

Due to a recent event which I shan't talk about (it was modded when I did) I've decided that my previous adherence to a hard IC/OOC divide is largely impossible to maintain in a "lowest common denominator environment" such as Eve.

"They can't behave so I won't" is a bit of a cop-out.

It's not so much of a cop-out as it is an escalation of force. If someone started pulling crap with me like what they're pulling with Vik, I'd probably do the same thing too. The opposing party in this instance does have a history of being easily offended and over-sensitive (OOC, even) about things that should only garner the sort of response they do IC, and of doing the sort of thing that Vik made a CYA thread about.

That all said, I'm not sure the paradigm shift is entirely necessary - this only seems to be a particular problem when it comes to one or two people for you, Vik, why not just employ this tactic with them and "business as usual" with others who you know are more or less trustworthy in this regard? You and I haven't always gotten along, but I'd be hesitant to say we didn't at least see the other person as reasonable.

To everyone in general: is there some good reason that everyone needs to act like a bag of dicks to each other with this sort of thing? One person pulls out the metagaming tactic, and it snowballs from there. It's like a bunch of children who can't figure out the concept of cause and effect, and how actions have conseque--oh, right. :lolrpers:

Morwen, I do appreciate this, and no, I don't intend to run out and start meta-gaming everyone. My intention is exactly as you describe: persons who start it...well, I'll finish it. I'm certainly not going to beginning a campaign of checking every blog to see what I can use this week, or having my character know every nasty thing said about him.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened, and I'm simply tired of putting myself in a position to get bitch-slapped IC with weapons obtained OOC.

I understand that this means that some people will not RP with me. I'm ok with that, and I understand why. I don't, and won't, hold hard feelings about it. Do what you have to do. And I'll try to make an effort to contact people who I do decide to use information from, and I will be reasonable about it, unless the situation is unreasonable to begin with.

[Jakiin]

My intention is exactly as you describe: persons who start it...well, I'll finish it.

Right, see that's not really the message I got from your post. What I got from the post was akin to "If I can use it, I will", as opposed to "If you use it, so will I". The second I can agree with, but the first is more of "Since there's a few douches out there, I should also be a douche."

Secondly, I'm going to posit the same question Havo has: What particular advantage are you talking about? Are we talking 'Ha, now I know that X is dating Y when he's married to Z! Time to cause some drama!' or 'Now I know that X's corporation is actually a bunch of blooders, and are preparing to attack my allies! Time to mobilize a pre-emptive!'

Cause the second is the only one I can think of with a pragmatic advantage. It's also kind of natural selection: If the Vanguard were planning to attack LDIS because they, I don't know, sell minmatar ships or something, I sure as hell wouldn't say anything OOC.

[Aria Jenneth]

To a certain degree, metagaming is just "part of Eve." That's particularly true if power is what you're aiming for. Take, for example, security checks using screenshots of people's logins-- standard operating procedure, yes?

Metagaming.

Eve's central theme is power, so I can understand and sympathize with those who have a particular desire to collect it.

So, from that angle, there's not much help for it: most everybody does it at least a little. That doesn't make it good; from where I stand, it's irritating at best whenever anybody does it.

What Vik is stating seems to be nothing extreme or even very unusual. That doesn't prevent it from being disappointing, and yes, I'm disappointed.

In the past, I've been burned by those on the other side of this particular divide, willing to write their own stories to get access to words "unfairly" expressed where they couldn't be answered-- that is, in an OOC setting. I still bear a pretty intense grudge over it, and I can't say I consider that grudge ill-founded.

That won't prevent me from roleplaying with such people, but it certainly has made me a more cautious player when it comes to such matters. Providing OOC information is a matter of trust; now, I will generally not reveal what I'm not prepared to see brought IC.

... Not unless it's loaded with a heavy-duty disclaimer I can use as a bludgeon to get offending posts removed from IGS and their authors disciplined, that is. And I don't much like having to do that; it makes me reluctant to, say, make journal posts.

Do I have a point to all this? ... Not really, I guess, aside from vague and generalized unhappiness. This sort of thing diminishes my faith in the entire roleplaying community. I was thinking of using my [Character] posting for Aria as a means to allow (exceptionally difficult) IC access to the contents of her private journal.

Now I'm thinkin', maybe not.

[Vikarion]

I don't - and can't, with the limitations of this board - get too specific as to exactly with whom and for what I'd go traipsing over the "line".

Will I, for personal advantage, go rip your blog off and post it on IGS?

Yes, if you post on your blog "Well, self, I shall now post my doctored photographs of Vikarion kissing Sansha Kuvakei on IGS."

Probably, if you are using it as a forum for capsuleers to conspire against me. In that case, it stands to reason that someone could get access to it.

No, if you post "I plan to ambush Vikarion in Jita on Sunday", I probably wouldn't see that as something to cross the line on. But I won't be in Jita on Sunday, or if I am, it will be with friends.

No, if you post "I hate Vikarion, I hate him so much, I intend to humiliate him on IGS."

The difference here is when someone is injecting something I can't fairly respond to without going to OOC sources - in other words, I intend to be mostly reactive, rather than pro-active.

Now, if someone, say, gets legitimate evemails from me about how I plan to destroy the Amarr empire (which won't happen, the character is not genocidal), you have every right to post those - that's IC and in-game. I won't go to OOC sources to try to refute it, since it did happen. Make up those evemails with photoshop, however, and all bets are off.

Ultimately, this is a defensive position for me.

[Aria Jenneth]

Vik, my advice is virtually always, "roll with it." I'd personally take doctored photos as high praise. Flattery. I'd be kinda annoyed if they remained exclusively in an OOC area, but then, I'd expect somebody to bring them to my IC attention sooner or later.

And then, oooo, what fun.

If you can't, well, that's your way. In either case, I'm not sure that this is something so grandiose that it requires a "statement of intent."

[Vikarion]

It does because I've been an outspoken opponent of what I'm now accepting, and if I'm going to change that, it is only right that I tell people so, and why.

If I'm wrong about something, the correct thing to do is to be as public about my mistake as I was when making it.

And, as I've said, some people won't agree with this. You are apparently one of them, and I expected that - but ultimately, if I have to choose between perfect RP, and having fun, I'll choose the latter. I pay for Eve, and it's one of very few sources of leisure or entertainment I allow myself, and I do find that I don't have as much fun if I'm completely constrained by the OOC/IC wall.

[Arvo Katsuya]

Vik...

I understand in the whole entirity of EVE, the mechanics are designed for non-consensual gameplay on some scale. Inter-alliance politics, PvP, the market, espionage, and so on... everything is built and even encouraged by the devs for us to do at the peril of the hapless (or not so hapless) target. This much I believe everyone can agree with.

However, this conflicts with the very nature of roleplay, on any medium. It *is* consensual. While the factor of dynamic roleplaying can put some wrenches into peoples' plans, there will always be some element of the scripted at play, because when you play an action onto someone... you cannot immediately assume its effective. This becomes godmoding.

The same can be said of learning of information. Yes, when someone openly broadcasts a raid on a corp, it'll be hardpressed to NOT do anything in return... however, to add onto what Aria has mentioned of 'rolling with it' is simply this. You roleplay to have fun, not to win.

Everyone doesn't like losing, but when a person cheats in ensuring victory with placing the very fiber of roleplaying morals at stake, it becomes less fun for everyone. It leads to more bitter experiances, more paranoia, and less material offered for readers to understand of their characters to take in.