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Author Topic: Is the back & forth fun?  (Read 12576 times)

Saede Riordan

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #45 on: 13 Jul 2010, 11:05 »

What Zag said basically, if we want the IGS to evolve beyond the endless back and forth, then the story of eve will need to do the same.
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Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #46 on: 13 Jul 2010, 12:17 »

Wait, what? The story is fine. It's meant as a SET PIECE so that players can launch their own stories forward in the universe. This is why relying on actors, events, and NPCs for your future can be so dangerous, because you risk stagnating yourself if you don't propel your own characters.
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Casiella

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #47 on: 13 Jul 2010, 13:51 »

I've often wondered why so many RPers tie themselves specifically to pre-existing NPC factions. We constantly see CCP introduce small, fairly minor NPC groups doing their own thing (e.g. small mercenary bands, independent religious cults, even the hacker collective used in the EW/SB script descriptions). Why don't more players create something disassociated from existing structures, particularly given how those structures tend to view capsuleers?

I've tried to do this a little bit as a "knowledge nomad", though with limited success given the line I try to navigate between the Cartel, Thukker Tribe, and RSS. Nikiruu probably sets the best example and highest bar in this regard.

Or maybe it happens more than I know, and I just don't see it because I tend to stay away from the high-visibility areas like The Summit?

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lallara zhuul

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #48 on: 13 Jul 2010, 14:20 »

I've often wondered why so many RPers tie themselves specifically to pre-existing NPC factions.

Easier to recruit, easier to build corp RP and dogma on it, easier to portray an image that is more easily approved by the public.

I can of course only speak from my experiences within PIE.

Of those dozens if not hundreds that I have talked with while being a recruiting officer, later a director as a head of the recruiting, then as a CEO, when someone has not read the PF and starts looking for an established corporation it gives you quite a bit of validation and content when you can direct the interested party to a quite vast amount of PF to build their RP on.

Basically it is smoke and mirrors that keeps the interested parties occupied while they get indoctrinated into the corporation and the way things are run within the corporation without the hassle of building your corp RP on shaky ground of some minor sect, faction or a small group of special interest that can be retconned into oblivion by a mere shrug from CCP.

In Amarr RP there is the Tetrimon, the Blood Raiders and just about everyone that went with the old Amarr way of things that have been retconned out of any kind of PF validification for their actions or their RP. (Tetrimon joined the Empire, turned out to be traitors, Blood Raiders were in the Bleak Lands, they were driven into shit-ass end of 0.0, the old Amarr way of seeing things were royally buttfucked by TEA.)

So yeah, the track record of CCP does not make anyone immune to being retconned out of their own loyalist RP into being heretics/outcasts, but it does not mean that it does not give security to people that start to build on something that CCP has already built with wide information in the PF (well not really wide, most of the Amarr loyalist stuff has become canon because they have had several hundred people clamoring about them on IGS thus lifting them to canon status, like the Scripture quotes.)

Basically, its easier to be part of a group that already exists and subscribe to their newsletter than actually go out on a limb and start banging your own drum.

Also there is the Drizzt Do'Urden factor of people thinking that to RP they have to be special snowflakes while in EVE most of the special snowflakes seem to be the norm, while those supporting pre-existing NPC factions seem to be the 'special' ones.
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Lillith Blackheart

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #49 on: 13 Jul 2010, 16:27 »

Quote
Also there is the Drizzt Do'Urden factor of people thinking that to RP they have to be special snowflakes while in EVE most of the special snowflakes seem to be the norm, while those supporting pre-existing NPC factions seem to be the 'special' ones.

Since when? The vast majority of the RP community that I have ever interacted with are all aligned to some sort of NPC faction. The even greater majority of those to the Empires, with a spattering of small pirate-aligned corps (save for Veto being the one big one), and then the Fraction off by themselves.

Your perspective seems far different from both mine and most others I know.
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Casiella

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #50 on: 13 Jul 2010, 16:48 »

Basically, its easier to be part of a group that already exists and subscribe to their newsletter than actually go out on a limb and start banging your own drum.

Also there is the Drizzt Do'Urden factor of people thinking that to RP they have to be special snowflakes while in EVE most of the special snowflakes seem to be the norm, while those supporting pre-existing NPC factions seem to be the 'special' ones.

These two sentences appear contradictory to me, but maybe I just misunderstand. Could you explain a little further?
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Graelyn

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #51 on: 13 Jul 2010, 23:23 »

I want to play Amarr. I find them awesome.

It's not some deficiency or laziness on my part.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #52 on: 14 Jul 2010, 02:11 »

Basically, its easier to be part of a group that already exists and subscribe to their newsletter than actually go out on a limb and start banging your own drum.

Also there is the Drizzt Do'Urden factor of people thinking that to RP they have to be special snowflakes while in EVE most of the special snowflakes seem to be the norm, while those supporting pre-existing NPC factions seem to be the 'special' ones.

These two sentences appear contradictory to me, but maybe I just misunderstand. Could you explain a little further?

Two different instances, two different sentences.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #53 on: 14 Jul 2010, 02:57 »

Then I will try to do the impossible, have a rant while eating breakfast and try to collect my thoughts at the same time.

My views expressed here are based on my experiences, EVE is a big enough sandbox nowadays that someone can have a completely opposite experiences through their playing career and their view is completely valid. This is not a competition about who is right or who is wrong, just an exchange of experiences.

I started off as a basic carebear who joined the Empire because as a player I perceived it to be the only Empire that was not blatantly lying to its population, and to the other empires, about what they were up to and what their motivations were.

I used to trash slaves, I used to collect Pax Amarria and spiced wine, I used to preach peace and happiness between the races on the old Amarr channel that was IC.
At that point I was doing the Drizzt Do'Urden bit, I was thinking that slavery was a barbaric practice and Reclaiming should be accomplished through peaceful means of mining and talking on IC channels.

Then I came across PIE, it was connected to the Jovian Body part event, where I donated the body parts to PIE (I think Ethi was drunk when I talked to him in the station and gave him the stuff I had collected) and was congratulated for being a loyal Amarrian. (I had waded through the PF while mining, slowly to get an Omen for mining and I was currently working my way up to an Armageddon, for mining of course.)

The Tal-Romon cathedral event for me was the straw that broke the camels back for me, Admiral Golan Trevize came to the Amarr channel, encouraging loyal Amarrians to run the missions for the transporting of the stones of the cathedral to Amarr Prime.

I thought it was cool.

As I was running the missions I was offered 20 million for one set of stones I was carrying by a collector (I think I had 1,8mil on my account at the time) and I refused. Because of the convictions of my character, not because of the choices of the player. I think at that point Lall took a life of her own.

I joined PIE, made my way through the ranks.

Saw more Amarrians fighting against the loyalists than actual loyalists, for years and years I came across the stereotype of an Amarrian that disapproved of slavery and/or the Empire while the loyalists were constantly the underdogs. (Ever since me joining PIE, CVA always had less pilots than the Freedom Fighters.)

I read IGS (it was mandatory for PIE pilots then) and posted there a few times.
Went to a few IC channels with the PIE mob (I think Kaleigh still remembers fondly the Gallentean cumguzzler comment.)

Anyhoos, I've had a lot of mileage in my corner of New Eden on which I base my experiences on the people that play EVE.

Which pretty much boils down to a few stereotypes that are around.

RP-lite folk, that want to join an established RP corp where they can do RP when they feel like it and have the privilege of learning from the experiences of older pilots. Its usually 50/50 with these folks if they will stay around in the loyalist crowd.

RP-noobs, that have discovered RP side of EVE after playing for a while (2 weeks to 3 years in my experience) and hunger for PF on the faction that they are a part of and hunger for examples on how to represent the faction that they have joined. Its usually 20/80 chance that they actually join loyalists and not actually join some other faction that may or may not fight against the folks they actually got the encouragement to head out to do their own thing.

Actual roleplayers, that have built their character into a real person living in the world of New Eden that reacts to things happening in the world of New Eden in a way that the player perceives a real person would react in the world of New Eden. They are the quiet ones, that tend not to make big numbers out of themselves. It's hard to generalize them in any way because finding them is pretty hard and those I have come across have been loyalists and stick to it to the bitter end.

ADD folk, basically they have to try everything and anything with their character(s), there is no red string to follow, there is just the latest news and how can they get themselves involved into it. There is a certain degree of Dramallamaism involved with IGS posts, blogs and being loud on IC channels about their latest great new thing. They usually last about a year with a thing (max) and then they have made their way into the next shiny thing in the horizon. Probably at one point, or another, one of the characters of an ADD person will be a loyalist, in all of the Factions.

Dramallamas, everything is BIG, explosions of emotions and events flying out of the yingyang of the Joves to entertain the player behind the character. Loads of blogs, IGS posts and general ego massage of the player. Usually the whole thing screams of lookatme, lookatme, LOOKATME, which leads to a lot of meh.

Drizzt Do'Urdens, special snowflakes, Mary Sues also are very entertaining, but stereotypes because anyone that has been part of the RP community for more than a year can see same patterns emerging time and time again.
'I have this great idea about a revolutionizing mcguffin that will be a great idea all around and everyone will be filled with awe from perceiving my awesome intellect for spotting this brand new angle of RP in New Eden.'
After you have seen it a hundred times it grows old and into a stereotype.

When you see it happening everywhere and all the time,
You are a bitter vet.

Meh, I think my plan shot itself in the leg, better head off to enjoy the summer a bit.
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Rodj Blake

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #54 on: 14 Jul 2010, 03:32 »

Yes, and the rest of us roll our eyes at them and keep moving. Nobody is swayed by Fox News / Limbaugh / Beck / Palin to believe something new, and the same for folks opposing them.


But the thing is, if you only ever heard one side of the story and not the other, then some people might be swayed.
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Lillith Blackheart

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #55 on: 14 Jul 2010, 07:03 »

Yes, and the rest of us roll our eyes at them and keep moving. Nobody is swayed by Fox News / Limbaugh / Beck / Palin to believe something new, and the same for folks opposing them.


But the thing is, if you only ever heard one side of the story and not the other, then some people might be swayed.

Not really, Rodj. Simple people might be swayed, but most people are smart enough to see through the bullshit anyway. If Bill O'Reilly says something stupid, the only person who answers him is Olbermann.

Because no one else on the other side cares.

There is no reason whatsoever to answer it, because propaganda of the types that is spewed is (first of all poor propaganda most of the time) something people are so inundated with they oft know exactly how much bullshit it is.

When new propaganda comes up? Sure. But it's the same stuff people have heard a million times and no one is listening anymore.

That's why the only person who answers Bill-O is the pundits on the other side, not your regular joe. The pundits are all who care.

Are you suggesting punditry?
« Last Edit: 14 Jul 2010, 07:21 by Lillith Blackheart »
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Casiella

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #56 on: 14 Jul 2010, 07:54 »

Are you suggesting punditry?

Hm. Now that could almost become an interesting RP angle. ;)
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Arvo Katsuya

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #57 on: 14 Jul 2010, 08:32 »

Well, it would have to be that angle. We got tabloid-based articles with Muck Raker on the IGS.

...whoever she is. :D
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Silver Night

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #58 on: 14 Jul 2010, 16:22 »

Could make for some interesting intra-Empire RP. Back and forth between people with liberal/patriot/practical views in the State. I'm sure similar differences exist in the Republic/Empire/Fed (especially the Fed).

It could be cool because it helps people develop more nuanced agendas for their character within a greater faction they might be part of.

Ulphus

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Re: Is the back & forth fun?
« Reply #59 on: 14 Jul 2010, 17:43 »

I've often wondered why so many RPers tie themselves specifically to pre-existing NPC factions.

I don't really know about other people, but I was trying to play a character reacting in a realistic way to the events around them. Ulf was brought up by a clan on Matar, with all of the relationships, relatives, social connections. Nobody particularly special, just an average Sebiestor.

Now he's a pod-pilot.

I still think that (apart from an adjustment phase like when a teenager discovers alcohol and wild parties) a lot of his values and reactions are going to, initially at least, be similar to before he was a pilot. He's loyal to the clan and family that he was brought up with.

Real people (usually) like to have a social group, something to tell them what they're doing is right, pat them on the shoulder, and let them feel good about themselves. Fairly often, this is a pre-existing group, rather than one that they create themselves. Or if they do create it themselves, it's as a clique or sub-group of a larger group.

Yes, EM is a clique of the Matari, but it's still Matari.

On a gamist level, if you join a pre-existing group, then there is a pattern for how other people can react to you, so it's actually less work for people to interact with you; There's also the society to react to, and indeed to react back, which gives a group a context in the larger cluster that is not made up of pod-pilots, giving it a greater feeling of verisimilitude.

Ulf is my first character. I've not explored all the interesting bits of Matari society enough to get bored with it. I don't want to explore something less normal, without having explored the normal enough to contrast it.
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