Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

When level 4s first came out, they used the Belt NPCs and not the lesser Complex NPCs?

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire  (Read 4144 times)

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« on: 26 Mar 2015, 10:23 »


You're entitled to your interpretation, but pushing it as some sort of absolute truth that one can only grasp after looking at a bunch of really old articles or missions written by interns in 2003 is kind of weird.

I knew you would misinterpret me this way too.   It's almost as if I had this exact conversation many times before.




The only way to win is to stop playing.
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

Gwen Ikiryo

  • Omelette
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #1 on: 26 Mar 2015, 10:33 »

If you think my assumptions are dumb, you should probably show your work. Making vague and condescending statements about their being some sort of secret truth to the setting that most people can't comprehend (while not actually talking about said "breadcrumbs" at all) and then acting like you just can't bear to suffer trying to explain anything to the uneducated masses ever again after I dispute this - even if my doing so is based only on a misunderstanding of your perspective, which it may well be - makes you come across as kind of pretentious and doesn't accomplish anything.
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2015, 10:52 by Gwen Ikiryo »
Logged

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #2 on: 26 Mar 2015, 11:06 »

It's not a secret truth - it's an alternative that's just as valid and is much more engaging to some folks than other versions.   I didn't intend to come off as condescending, at least not in the first post.   But when you offer reasoned arguments and facts  that contradict ideas that people are emotionally attached to they tend to react with hostility as if you were personally attacking them.   

Someone, somewhere has given a name to that aspect of our species but I forget what it's called otherwise I'd link it for you.

Regardless of whether you should be forgiven (which I do btw) for behaving in a way that is just plain human nature or that I know what sort of response challenging backstage/summit group think will elicit - I don't care to handle the tomatoes wielding hecklers with kid gloves these days.   So I respond in kind ;)
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

Gwen Ikiryo

  • Omelette
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #3 on: 26 Mar 2015, 11:15 »

My initial response to your post was just me stating an objection to what you seemed to be saying, since you hadn't really cited half of it and it contradicted considerably with a lot of what I've read in the PF. I apologize if it came across too confrontationally or hostile - I was really just trying to be laconic about my opinion. I felt you were making some pretty bold assertions, and wanted you to challenge them, not be a jerk about your opinion.

But since you responded by acting as if I was being extremely trite, and also said this:

Quote
Even if it was, most people don't have the ability to see the pattern or connect the dots even when it's laid out in front of them.   For those of us that can see it, trying to point people in the right direction is a lot like the curse of Sisyphus.     Lore nerds unfortunately have the same distribution as the general population and no about of reasoned argument on the forums will move a person to the right.

I hope you can understand why I might've been a little annoyed by your tone and the implication.

Despite what you seem to have assumed, I'm not emotionally attached to any paticular aspect of the setting - If you had, again, thrown me some PF, I might've even come to see where you were coming from. After all, we're talking about stuff people wrote, here, not real life. However, I am emotionally attached to people talking to me like I'm kind of an idiot.
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2015, 11:21 by Gwen Ikiryo »
Logged

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #4 on: 26 Mar 2015, 13:43 »

does absolutely nothing constructive for a conversation so I'd encourage you to refrain from doing so, no matter how "prickly" you've become.

I don't care to handle the tomatoes wielding hecklers with kid gloves these days.   So I respond in kind ;)


Missed were I said that part did you?  While there are exceptions, In aggregate this community is incapable of constructive conversation whether I refrain from pointing out their bad behavior or not.
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #5 on: 26 Mar 2015, 16:11 »

Yes, that is what I referred to with the gallente epic arc. I would expect to see the same kind of things in other factions as well in the criminal underworld, but it is understandable that CCP is trying here to portray the darker side of the Fed (fuckingly heavy handed)

To be fair, subtly seems too often lost on the Eve's masses.   Perhaps they felt they needed a big mallet to send the point home.   I think the message intended by the epic arc and the Gallente blurb on the slavery Wiki is that in high-sec, were the ethnic Gallente live, it's much like Valadeus describes.   Slavery is not commonplace and the average citizen doesn't encounter it very often.   However, I think CCP's message in the epic arc is pretty clear that low-sec Federation, where the other bloodlines populate is a very different world.

However for the Caldari I wasn't referring to the Guristas. It's true they are Caldari somehow, but to the Caldari they are not (the same way Raata heirs on CP are not). Anyway, I was specifically speaking of the caldari 8 megas and subsidiaries. We have the disassociated that plays the unemployed turnover part of every society (a society without one is absurd). But we don't hear or read much about the lower strates of the caldari society.

I've think of the Guristas as a nineth mega which is a part or each of the megas, woven through out them.


It heavily reeks at a a pet peeve of mine with CCP writers when it comes to the caldari : they are very hesitant when it comes painting a dark side of that particular faction. Everything that is shown about the Caldari is always painted in a very laudatory fashion (except maybe for the disenfranchised yeah).
   

Maybe that's to counter the some of the old racial descriptions including the ones that used (maybe still is?) to be part of the character creation.    As day one new player your don't know anything about eve lore except the descriptions given about the four empires and for many that's as far as their knowledge will ever extend.   Based on the way the four empire have historicly been portraied at character creation, if asked 'who are the bad guys' more new players would probably say the Caldari followed by the Amarr.    If asked 'who are the good guys' they'd probably pick Gallente followed by the Minmatar.[/quote] 

While none of the empires are really good or bad guys, if you were to read all the lore and rate rate them 'bad to good' using a metric of who used violence and coersion to force themselves on others you'd have a strong case for rating the empires as follows: Gallente Federation -> Amarr Empire -> Minmatar Republic -> Caldari State.   

I suspect a lot of Gallente RPers picked the Gallente because the character creation told them the Gallente were the good guys and that the Caldari were bad guys.   Basiclly CCP trolled them.  Ha.

Anyway, maybe it's to make up for telling people the Caldari are space Nazi in the character creation?

They are said to have the best or second best standard of living average in New Eden (which I don't dispute), and that most of their employees live good and well off lives. Which I call utter bullshit. We are speaking about a corporate society where the megacorp is your overlord. Do you seriously see a ruthless megacorp somehow cutting on their benefits to feed their salaries fat ? Do you see a megacorp actually setting up a minimal wage because, well, they feel like dealing into social welfare and politics ?

As a Libertarian I vehimently disagree with this entire sentiment but I'll think I'll leave it at.   I feel that a persons opinion on real life politics is extremely relevant to a discussion on the Caldari because it effects their perception of them.   If it wasn't, then we would not run into this topic so frequently when discussing them.   

However, while the mods here freely allow people to promote Liberal ideas without any comments on 'discussing RL politics'- when someone brings up a conservative or Libertarian idea the thought police quickly censor them.  I'm sure they are on their way now.
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2015, 16:18 by purple »
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

Arkon Sarain

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 202
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #6 on: 26 Mar 2015, 16:39 »

While none of the empires are really good or bad guys, if you were to read all the lore and rate rate them 'bad to good' using a metric of who used violence and coersion to force themselves on others you'd have a strong case for rating the empires as follows: Gallente Federation -> Amarr Empire -> Minmatar Republic -> Caldari State.

Seeing as you mention none of the factions in New Eden being wholly good or bad, why bother with the metric? Why do we - as players - need to know we are fighting for the "good guys" surely all that is needed is for our characters to believe that they are fighting for the "good guys"?

To my mind attempts to even place any of the factions in New Eden on a scale of good to bad for a player is doomed to fail as CCP hasn't provided us with anywhere near enough information to accurately assess the merits of the societies in New Eden. This lack of information however isn't a hindrance to our characters as they exist in the world, so we can safely write them as saying this is evil or this is not, etc.


As a Libertarian I vehimently disagree with this entire sentiment but I'll think I'll leave it at.   I feel that a persons opinion on real life politics is extremely relevant to a discussion on the Caldari because it effects their perception of them.   If it wasn't, then we would not run into this topic so frequently when discussing them.

I am not sure I follow this line of thinking, and would appreciate a little elucidation on it. :)

Allow me to explain why I am confused: why does my real world politics affect my character's perception of a fictional entity? Surely it shouldn't? Surely my own, as the player, view's should not be used to make judgement calls on the fictional entities in New Eden, but rather my character's views should be?

Certainly I don't ever want my own political and philosophical views to be confused with those of Arkon the character - if Arkon the character was real, Arkon the player would hate him in every way imaginable XD

However I think we may be veering away from the topic in the OP, apologies for this post in that event but I desired a little clarification on a few points. :) This thread has been most stimulating to read.

-A
Logged

Valadeus

  • Guest
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #7 on: 26 Mar 2015, 17:04 »

I have to disagree with your metric...

The Gallente Federation did not use violence to conquer anyone in its youth, it used "cultural imperialism" which is partnerships, diplomacy and other methods of "assimilating" cultures. Violent conquest was not even a part of the picture really until the Caldari seceded.

Even then, the Federation dragged its feet along so bad that they got pushed to the point of breaking, sparking an entire regime shift, which then militarized their response.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/History_of_the_Gallente_Federation
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Nascent_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Luminate_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation

The early Federation practiced cultural assimilation and expansion. The first real conflict was with the Mannar and that was internal to the people after being provided technology by the Gallente, not a war of conquest by the Gallente.

The assertion that the Gallente Federation used violence and coercion to force themselves onto others is not entirely true. It was largely diplomacy, sharing of technology and education and general cultural assimilation.

I'm not trying to white-knight the Federation here but let's be honest about the history not just paint the Gallente as the "bad guys" out of convenience.
Logged

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #8 on: 26 Mar 2015, 17:28 »

Seeing as you mention none of the factions in New Eden being wholly good or bad, why bother with the metric? Why do we - as players - need to know we are fighting for the "good guys" surely all that is needed is for our characters to believe that they are fighting for the "good guys"?
   

I agree it's not terribly useful to discuss which faction is the most evil or good, and was not trying to achieve that.  I was pointing out a quirk of eve lore, wherein people are all but told the Federation is good, and the State bad at character creation.  Then much of the existing cannon turns around and shows you that the Caldari just want to be left a lone and not bother anybody if they don't have to* and the Federation are avaricious conquistadors.   I was proposing a theory, that CCP made one group seem to good and one too bad in the character creation but try balance that by highlighting the bad parts of the Federation and good parts of the State in the rest of the lore.   I did this to offer a possible explaination of Lyn's observation that the Caldari are shown in a better light than others in general cannon.


To my mind attempts to even place any of the factions in New Eden on a scale of good to bad for a player is doomed to fail as CCP hasn't provided us with anywhere near enough information to accurately assess the merits of the societies in New Eden. This lack of information however isn't a hindrance to our characters as they exist in the world, so we can safely write them as saying this is evil or this is not, etc.


Perhaps there isn't a solid enough foundation there to really make an assesment of any factions character but recently CCP have constructed a scaffolding that might give u a place to start


As a Libertarian I vehimently disagree with this entire sentiment but I'll think I'll leave it at.   I feel that a persons opinion on real life politics is extremely relevant to a discussion on the Caldari because it effects their perception of them.   If it wasn't, then we would not run into this topic so frequently when discussing them.

I am not sure I follow this line of thinking, and would appreciate a little elucidation on it. :)

Allow me to explain why I am confused: why does my real world politics affect my character's perception of a fictional entity? Surely it shouldn't? Surely my own, as the player, view's should not be used to make judgement calls on the fictional entities in New Eden, but rather my character's views should be?

Certainly I don't ever want my own political and philosophical views to be confused with those of Arkon the character - if Arkon the character was real, Arkon the player would hate him in every way imaginable XD

However I think we may be veering away from the topic in the OP, apologies for this post in that event but I desired a little clarification on a few points. :) This thread has been most stimulating to read.

-A

How a character feels, thinks or believes is for character development.   This section of the forum is for sharing our (the players) different takes on the nature of life in New Eden.   Lyn's personal political beliefs cause him to feel that under a corporate  system there would be what is a essentially a slave class. 

My character was born on Kamokor IV - a planet under a corporate system.    I , the player, believe the most people on this planet should have relativly happy and prosperous lives because I believe that is a natural result of corporations governing themselves without crony capitalism in the mix.   

Lyn feels that  such a system could lead to misery and drudgery for the population instead.

I think my character grew up in one environment, she thinks he experienced another.

While it's not reasonable for either of us to expect the other to adopt the our opinions.  Amicable discussion of those differences is useful for avoiding misunderstandings.
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #9 on: 26 Mar 2015, 17:31 »

I have to disagree with your metric...

The Gallente Federation did not use violence to conquer anyone in its youth, it used "cultural imperialism" which is partnerships, diplomacy and other methods of "assimilating" cultures. Violent conquest was not even a part of the picture really until the Caldari seceded.

Even then, the Federation dragged its feet along so bad that they got pushed to the point of breaking, sparking an entire regime shift, which then militarized their response.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/History_of_the_Gallente_Federation
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Nascent_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Luminate_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation

The early Federation practiced cultural assimilation and expansion. The first real conflict was with the Mannar and that was internal to the people after being provided technology by the Gallente, not a war of conquest by the Gallente.

The assertion that the Gallente Federation used violence and coercion to force themselves onto others is not entirely true. It was largely diplomacy, sharing of technology and education and general cultural assimilation.

I'm not trying to white-knight the Federation here but let's be honest about the history not just paint the Gallente as the "bad guys" out of convenience.

Those sources you linked are the very ones I'd have linked to support my stance that an honest discussion of the federation's history shows they do use violence and coercion for conquest.  :lol:   More so than even the Amarr.

 http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5643.msg92916#msg92916
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

Valadeus

  • Guest
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #10 on: 26 Mar 2015, 17:37 »

I read your thread, but I also see a lot of your interjected thoughts and notes to be perspectives of a Caldari and not simply non-biased facts. I could use the same articles to counter-argue each of your points (and have done so in-character more than once).

The point being made is that the constant tension between the Caldari and Gallente literally stems from the fact that both sides have a fundamental misunderstanding of one another and the PF does not indicate one way or another that everything the early Federation did was heinous and devious nor entirely selfless and philanthropic.

I'd find it very difficult to state with absolute certainty that the Gallente Federation was the worst-of-the-worst in terms of violent or coercive expansion in its history just as I'd find it very difficult to state they were innocent of any ill intent.

However, at this point...we've really derailed this discussion. Sorry.
Logged

Arkon Sarain

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 202
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #11 on: 26 Mar 2015, 17:44 »

My character was born on Kamokor IV - a planet under a corporate system.    I , the player, believe the most people on this planet should have relativly happy and prosperous lives because I believe that is a natural result of corporations governing themselves without crony capitalism in the mix.

Thank you for the elucidation, it is appreciated. :)

I suppose I still don't understand why the player's opinion is relevant in the above quote. Why does it matter what you - the player - think of Kamokor IV? If your character can say that they believe their life was prosperous and happy, which I don't believe anyone is saying you can't, why does the player's opinion on the matter count?

But yes this is moving wildly away from the subject of the thread, apologies for my part in that, perhaps we can continue this elsewhere? :)

-A
Logged

purple

  • Obvious Gallente Plant
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #12 on: 26 Mar 2015, 18:03 »

My character was born on Kamokor IV - a planet under a corporate system.    I , the player, believe the most people on this planet should have relativly happy and prosperous lives because I believe that is a natural result of corporations governing themselves without crony capitalism in the mix.

Thank you for the elucidation, it is appreciated. :)

I suppose I still don't understand why the player's opinion is relevant in the above quote. Why does it matter what you - the player - think of Kamokor IV? If your character can say that they believe their life was prosperous and happy, which I don't believe anyone is saying you can't, why does the player's opinion on the matter count?

But yes this is moving wildly away from the subject of the thread, apologies for my part in that, perhaps we can continue this elsewhere? :)

-A

This thread was on it's way to being buried if we hadn't necro'd it.    Anyone who complains to the mods is just picking nits.

Also, as stated previously, I don't get fun from in-character interactions.  Which is why you won't see me much in any of the channels.    Such discussions are useful to people who do, though as can help avoid misunderstands.

For me though, the fun is in dissecting eve's lore just to dissect it, explore it and understand every part of it.   
Logged
You are RPing wrong.

Arkon Sarain

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 202
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #13 on: 26 Mar 2015, 18:05 »

For me though, the fun is in dissecting eve's lore just to dissect it, explore it and understand every part of it.

Ah okay now I understand where you are coming from :D

I will bow out here then, as for me I examine the lore and the like only to help me write a more convincing character :)

Thanks for the interesting conversation!

-A
Logged

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: Re: Re: Numbers of slaves in the Amarr Empire
« Reply #14 on: 26 Mar 2015, 18:23 »


Maybe that's to counter the some of the old racial descriptions including the ones that used (maybe still is?) to be part of the character creation.    As day one new player your don't know anything about eve lore except the descriptions given about the four empires and for many that's as far as their knowledge will ever extend.   Based on the way the four empire have historicly been portraied at character creation, if asked 'who are the bad guys' more new players would probably say the Caldari followed by the Amarr.    If asked 'who are the good guys' they'd probably pick Gallente followed by the Minmatar.

While none of the empires are really good or bad guys, if you were to read all the lore and rate rate them 'bad to good' using a metric of who used violence and coersion to force themselves on others you'd have a strong case for rating the empires as follows: Gallente Federation -> Amarr Empire -> Minmatar Republic -> Caldari State.   

I suspect a lot of Gallente RPers picked the Gallente because the character creation told them the Gallente were the good guys and that the Caldari were bad guys.   Basiclly CCP trolled them.  Ha.

Anyway, maybe it's to make up for telling people the Caldari are space Nazi in the character creation?

You really would have rated them that way ? To me the first time I entered the game the Amarr directly screamed bad guys over at me. The Caldari just looked like some heavy militaristic douches with ultra patriots leanings. It reminded me a bit of Einlein kind of space empire. But the guys outright described as having enslaved a whole race, which was one of the 4 major ones ? It was a no brainer to me, like to a lot of people.

No argument over why gallente are always picked up as the good guys. They are our western values twisted to very darker places, but the dark places are not apparent at first glance. However I know that a huge lot of people tended to pick up the Minmatar because they were actually fitting more the proactive hero, rebelling stance with a lot of very honourable values, like fighting for their kin and freedom, etc. They looked genuinely good to me at first. A lot of people actually used to spit heavily at the gallente because they reminded them so much of the RL shit around democracies, economic crysis, and the likes. Funny enough, that outburst of outright hostily against the gallente coincided exactly in my eve experience when the subprimes hit the US, and then when it was all about the 1% vs 99%, police dudes gasing people in the face and whatnot. Now - what a surprise - it's gone.

Now then, after a lot of lore digging and years of experience in Eve, I can safely say that the Amarr and Minmatar are the most alien and certainly the ones who hold "universal" distate for some of their values or actions. The Amarr with their reclaiming, genocides, slavery. The Minmatar with their blinded hatred, voluval mutilations and barbaric practices, their outright terrorism and blood thirst. That's their darkest sides, and it's not even about political opinions anymore here (coming to that later).

Now for the Fed, the children labour and slavery allusions, and depraved things, could also enter that kind of considerations. But for the Caldari ? It's mostly a matter of politics. I just can't find a reasonable side of them that we as players would all agree to find absolutely abject. They are the most advanced technologically. They have space honour (for what it's worth), the sense of sacrifice, the sense of duty. Their megacorps sure look gloomy, but to some political opinions that could seem acceptable. They hate slavery (even if in my opinion they practice it, but that's it, my political OOC opinion). Where the hell are the dark, dark sides of the Caldari ? Tibus Heth ? Space nazis ? Perhaps. Not convinced.

Maybe i'm forgetting something crucial.

They are said to have the best or second best standard of living average in New Eden (which I don't dispute), and that most of their employees live good and well off lives. Which I call utter bullshit. We are speaking about a corporate society where the megacorp is your overlord. Do you seriously see a ruthless megacorp somehow cutting on their benefits to feed their salaries fat ? Do you see a megacorp actually setting up a minimal wage because, well, they feel like dealing into social welfare and politics ?

As a Libertarian I vehimently disagree with this entire sentiment but I'll think I'll leave it at.   I feel that a persons opinion on real life politics is extremely relevant to a discussion on the Caldari because it effects their perception of them.   If it wasn't, then we would not run into this topic so frequently when discussing them.   

However, while the mods here freely allow people to promote Liberal ideas without any comments on 'discussing RL politics'- when someone brings up a conservative or Libertarian idea the thought police quickly censor them.  I'm sure they are on their way now.

Actually, I was expecting that exact answer... I also can see why megas could offer advantages to their employees (who are definitely a whole thing above mere employees considering caldari society). But when you see that as a libertarian ideal, I see that them as corporate tools.

But that's the whole thing heh ? CCP probably thought this was enough to paint them in a grimdark light, since it refers a lot to the Shadowrun trop of ebil corporations. But they introduced a lot of things that actually make it somehow vanish, with no poor class or plebs (the thing I find utterly absurd, that can't work in a capitalistic world), happy dutiful industrious citizens... They are not even imperialistic like the Amarr or the Gallente.

That's the whole thing : the way you can see the Caldari is mostly up to your political RL affinities. And well yes, I am on the exact opposite on the political spectrum RL : authoritarian social democrat. Which explains things.
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2015, 18:27 by Lyn Farel »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2