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[Vizage]

EDIT: @Lyn

You do realize the very first point in your linked post.  Point 1).  Makes it exclusive to returning players. Aka Veterans right?

Wasn't the point you were all making that veterans do nothing to improve the situation and spend their time complaining ? Wasn't point 1) about making them moving their asses to actually do something ?

Yeah, and seeing how you go no replies, promotes my point that they are not as active, not your point, that your single request somehow makes Veterans active.

For those still continuing to say that vets do not do anything, or try not to do anything, this is just one of many examples that got no answers. Well I was not playing when I wrote that, and was really ready to try something again. How silly and naive of me.

This more or less..

And since they are not active, do they complain that much about the state of RP ? Even here ? I maybe count one or two like that, but then ? You can add me to the lot if you really want to, but if you all say that there are so many RPers ingame to be found, aren't those one or two vets a bit like a drop in the ocean ?

I seriously don't understand you guys. On one hand you complain that veterans spend their time "whining about the state of RP ingame while doing nothing and that's because RP is at a lull", and then tell that there are plenty of RPers left to continue having a good source of RP material.

Make up your mind ?

You're missing the point Lyn. Veterans who complain about no activity while active, and inactive veterans are two different bodies entirely. The entire flesh of my post was supposed to highlight the two disparate groups.

If you are inactive (I.e. Not paying a sub) it is by definition impossible for you to Roleplay in EVE. Sure you could maybe get some stuff rolling in forums, no one is expecting you to maintain some sweeping arc when you can't even log in. Of course if these inactives complained about lack of content it would probably just strike everyone as odd....

The active veterans (I.e. Ones who still sub) are a completely different beast, if they complain about lack of content it is entirely in their power to content create themselves. These people (while few, mind you) come off ironically annoying and have basically no right to whine when they could simply do it themselves.

That being said, on the subject of YDIW irony. That sort of stuff coming from Either of these aforementioned groups is entirely toxic, ironic, and completely unhealthy. As far as I am concerned, you lost your right to meaningfully interact, critique, and mingle within the actual RP landscape when you stopped paying the subscription fee's. Who are you to spoil someone else's fun who's actually still playing the game. (This is obviously the Pooh-Pooh'ing UNSUBBED's) The Pooh-Pooh'ing subs on the other hand have a myriad of ways to interact (and alter the course) of RP in a meaningful/fun/non-disruptive way as they can actually take part in it. A couple of times I found myself volleying a series of questions towards someone, in the politest way possible to allow them reach a conclusion about some aspect of the world that had overlooked (Flying from bridge, how brain-scans work, something.)

The point is there are a myriad of other ways subbed players can help steer RP. All of them having the added benefit of actually getting you involved in the community again.

[Jace]

While I do not have much to say about the 'larger' (strong quotes there, hardcore bunny ears with eye rolls) debate happening here, I do think people should always keep in mind the difference between YDIW mocking (often truly, truly vicious in attitude) and just 'that may not make sense, have you read this?" comments. People can absolutely be educated about PF in constructive ways. But in my experience this is best done OOCly. There is something particularly kneecapping to someone when their character is ICly ganged up on and decried as insane or moronic just because they got part of the PF wrong. I have had very few instances where the player in question is unhappy to get some information OOCly in a convo or mail.

[Lyn Farel]

There are still so many RP bittervets left ingame ? I thought most of them already unsubbed...

[Arista Shahni]

Come on Lyn, this is EVE.

If a good kneecapping is to be had, ANYONE will participate!

"Why are you flying into this random battle between 2 alliances you never even knew existed?"

"Because pew?"

... kinda like that.

edit:  Also there's a difference between dissapointed sad vets who unsubbed and bittervets.  As a rule, ibttervets generally do NOT unsub.  Because being bitter is part pf the game at this point.

[Jace]

edit:  Also there's a difference between dissapointed sad vets who unsubbed and bittervets.  As a rule, ibttervets generally do NOT unsub.  Because being bitter is part pf the game at this point.

qft

[Vizage]

Ari saves the day. Thank you Ari

[Gaven Lok ri]

I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.

I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.

[Ayallah]

I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.

I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.

The easiest solution would be to put all bitter-vets into a home.  Maybe all could congregate in some sort of social-club,  maybe a channel where they could all talk. 

Maybe you could advertise this channel, get some new blood in there, some old returning players.  so the bitters, the retirees and the new blood could all kind of meet and converse and interact. 

No idea what to call it tho. 

[Morwen Lagann]

I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.

I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.

The easiest solution would be to put all bitter-vets into a home.  Maybe all could congregate in some sort of social-club,  maybe a channel where they could all talk. 

Maybe you could advertise this channel, get some new blood in there, some old returning players.  so the bitters, the retirees and the new blood could all kind of meet and converse and interact. 

No idea what to call it tho.

Obligatory: The Summit?

I think we already have places for this sort of thing, but as ever, the problem is getting people to stop focusing on the "bitter" part of bittervet and start doing the other half of it.

[Ayallah]

the problem is getting people to stop focusing on the "bitter" part of bittervet and start doing the other half of it.

^^^^

[Lyn Farel]

I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.

I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.

Yes, there is truth in that.

Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).

[Aedre Lafisques]

I have never had to study a PF so hard before to get a handle on the EVE universe. The setting wasn't nearly as easy as - well, any other setting - because so much has been defined, so I can't blame anybody for jumping in and making mistakes. We should be those pilots willing to stop and explain why you got blapped, the nice ones. It took me the better half of a year and a half to get comfortable and feel like I know a little of what I'm talking about and I still have to have a second screen open when I can. In that sense, it's no different than piloting - which is a little intense, but certainly interesting and probably the draw? I can admit I was really worried at first about getting things right. Observing the Summit for more than a year has also sensitized me to the sorts of things Nobody Wants to Hear about. Heck, I don't want to hear about them either! (laugh) But I feel like having patience still, because I haven't been through the actual wringer yet.

I'm going to second that people who have been doing this for years, and are now bittervet (which is entirely understandable, I've been through that elsewhere) need to let newbros cover the same ground (especially when CCP is slow on the PF side of things, which I fully expect to be on and off). I was playing with someone recently that was super capable of handling exactly those feelings entirely IC, and it was on the warm side. It can be fun, or at least a real scene, to deal with someone younger and/or newer to capsuleering who isn't aware of just how often certain topics have been discussed within the Capsuleer minority, without outwardly belittling the effort at the same time. While I know full well as a player that everything has been discussed, Aedre doesn't particularly care that people have 'had conversations about a topic before' when certain things are important to him, and the reason he's out there.

A certain level of 'I don't want to talk about this again because ~history~' makes sense, but an OOC top-down refusal might actually be unrealistic from an IC perspective. Expect someone to want to know why you're so done; I think there's basically ways to roll any situation into an interesting interaction, but new faces are probably always going to mean dealing with new Capsuleers dealing with the situational stuff of the universe first, especially when coming into contact with other Capsuleers, which is fundamentally political a lot of the time (at least to square that away as not-an-issue), and then the more personal stuff once they get to know your character as a friend. Young people and new blood are bound to reinvent the wheel a little bit as they find themselves and how they fit into the world, I think. So frowning on that out of the gate is probably discouraging to people fresh to EVE RP. Frowning on people that never move on or are 'shit-disturbers' so to speak is maybe an entirely different topic...?

The flipside of this I suppose is RP newbros absorbing the fact that everything has already been thoroughly discussed among the more experienced Capsuleers for the moment, and approaching them with that in mind, potentially even as IC attitude is probably a good idea. The game (and Capsuleers) has been around just long enough that one can approach someone 'much older' with that in mind, rather than assaulting them with anything we might consider revolutionary - It's not. While it might not occur to every newbro inherently, I think planting the seed of that realization probably still is in the hands of bittervets at the end of the day, just like explaining a blap. The 'Send them an evemail and invite them to corp' attitude is still one of the better ways to handle newbies in-game, so it ought to work in the equally-complicated EVElore.

The RP aspect of the game has its own New Player Experience to worry about, and we're definitely not going to get any help with that... outside of incidentally.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.

I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.

Yes, there is truth in that.

Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).

I don't know if that is actually true. The discussions on this forum seem to bring as many or more people than I remember them doing back on Chatsubo. The Summit is *definitely* more active than it was 4 years ago. The number of casually involved RPers is also higher than I remember. The number of FWers who casually invoke Amarr PF as justifications for their actions (and as smack talk) seems much higher.

It sounds to me like there was a real boom bust cycle 2-3 years back. So you had a ton of activity all at once, and then a massive burnout. Seems pretty clear that there is a *lot* more RP than there was this time two years ago now, but that there might not be as much as there was 3 years ago.

[Synthia]

I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.

I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.

The easiest solution would be to put all bitter-vets into a home.  Maybe all could congregate in some sort of social-club,  maybe a channel where they could all talk. 

Maybe you could advertise this channel, get some new blood in there, some old returning players.  so the bitters, the retirees and the new blood could all kind of meet and converse and interact. 

No idea what to call it tho.

As it happens, I already have a channel, originally created as a jest.

It is called "Intergalactic Nadir"

Current MOTD is:
"The Intergalactic Nadir
For Discussion of New Eden Politics in the Manner to which Capsuleers have become Accustomed.
You have reached the Bottom.
Vaun Erryk > with every spoken line another person despairs and choses oblivion over the continuing noise"

[Mitara Newelle]

Fine, you're all invited to the Shutaq estate.  Faithful at this table, enjoy your dinner. Heathens at that table - don't mind those things that look like restraints, it's just for decoration.