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[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I would love if there were some 'web bombs' or some similar new area effect devices to counter all this kitin'

I believe web bombs are called "Huginns" ^_^

[Lyn Farel]

I would love if there were some 'web bombs' or some similar new area effect devices to counter all this kitin'

I think that the root of the problem lies deeper than that. It's kind of the same issue on other MMOs as well, but here magnified in Eve.

If you add web bombs, it does not negate the fact that it's either all or nothing. With web bombs you just kill kiting altogether.

As I said the main issue is it's either all or nothing. Either you are in range at the start of the engagement, and you kill the kiter, or either you are not and you end up kited to death without being able to do anything.

The main issue is thus the fact that pvp asks for one thing most of the time : specialization over versatility. One of the first thing you learn in pvp is that you never mix short range and long range weapons, and for a reason. The only "versatility" you can find in that game is the usual cookie cutter configurations being able to face most threats with most efficiency like hurricanes in the past, etc (less obvious with the recent changes now, which is good, but leaves the kiting issue even more prevalent).

I mean, as long as people can specialize, they will always choose to specialize the most possible so that they can use 100% of their potential in a few specific kinds of situations. Otherwise, they just avoid combat, which often leads to the dreaded rock paper scissors dilemnas in solo or very small group pvp. Eventually you have scissors systematically fleeing rocks, rocks systematically fleeing papers, and so on, unless rocks meet rocks and start a fight since they are on even terms. That's the bane of solo pvp. That's why you miss 95% of the fights you could get otherwise. Unless one kind of setup becomes so prevalent in the meta that everyone start to use it, so eventually people will choose to fight more often, but... with doppleganger cookie-cutter setups, which was the bane of solo pvp in the past (dare to fight differently, like with a brawler, and you were relegated to never find a fight or being griefed).

That is a less of a curse in group or fleet pvp since complementarity and synergy comes into the equation, where people can fill the deficiencies of their comrades while their comrades do the same for them.

[Kazuma Ry]

@ Lyn -

I was wondering, when you say that an issue is not to mix long range and short range weapons, would this include the use of drones?

What I am thinking *(and bear in mind, I don't know much about PvP yet), could you fit a ship for a sniper role, then have drones for if the ship comes in close, or does the Kiter running a MWD make this not possible?

Also I know some ships can fit both turrets and missiles, would it be gimping yourself too much to fit long range turrets, and rockets for if the kiter gets in to close, or does this fall into the above issue with MWD making it not work?

~ Kazuma

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

That's why you miss 95% of the fights you could get otherwise.

The thing is, though, that's part and parcel of the solo pvp game. Any decent solo pvp pilot has at least a reasonable idea of what they can and cannot take on, and they'll avoid the fights they can't win. Why wouldn't they? Gang warfare gets us used to the idea of frequent fights, but pure solo combat has never followed that pattern.

Since I'm mainly a frigate pilot, I'll talk mainly about frigates. That seems fair, since the majority of solo pvp happens in frigates.

I went looking for a real world equivalent to frigate pvp, and I settled on WWII aerial combat. Modern aerial warfare is the purview of aircraft armed with weapons that are largely "one hit, one kill", which doesn't really match up with Eve's "gradually wear down the hit points" model, so that's right out. WWI aircraft, with their greater or lesser emphasis on speed, agility, toughness and firepower provide an interesting analogue.

Now, granted, very little of the air combat in WWII was solo, it still provides some point of reference. We pvpers all like to think of ourselves as hot, so I went looking for combat figures for aces who survived the war, and the numbers were educational:

• "Bud" Anderson: 16.25 victories and 116 sorties - 1 kill per 7.1 missions
• Gabreski : 28 air victories and 193 missions - 1 kill per 6.9 missions
• John C. Meyer 24 victories and 200 missions - 1 kill per 8.3 missions
• Zemke 17.75 victories in 154 combat missions - 1 kill per 8.7 missions
• Lt. Col. John B. England: 17.5 victories and 108 combat mission - 1 kill per 6.2 missions
• Donald Bochkay: 13.83 victories and 123 Combat Missions - 1 kill per 8.9 missions

I also found some data about the average length of a combat mission, which was around 2-4 hours - about the same as a decent evening's roam in Eve.

These statistics are telling. On the average, these pilots got a kill every 7.6 missions, or one kill per 15-30 hours flown. Keep in mind that these pilots are all aces, and that they almost never flew in groups smaller than four, and this statistic becomes even more telling.

This doesn't reflect the number of actual fights, mind you, only the number of kills that resulted. There are estimates that only about 25-50% of fights (i.e.: where planes come into contact and start maneuvering, looking to shoot one another down) resulted in a kill, so if you're comparing that to Eve fights, the numbers are a little better: Assuming the worst statistics, that there were 4 fights per kill, we're still looking at only about one fight per two missions.

In Eve, if you're flying with a small gang for a few hours regularly, and you only got a fight every other day, you'd be upset. If 75% of those fights ended with no kills, you'd be livid.

When I was doing FW - and granted, I wasn't particularly effective in FW - I usually flew solo. I'd typically get one or two fights a night, but most of those ended with no kills (I usually flew a kiting Breacher, which has a hard time keeping people from escaping through gates). When I flew in a small gang, I'd get more fights a night, and more kills - typically 2-4 fights and at least that many kills, though if you really want to compare them to WWII victory stats you'd have to divide the kills by the number of people involved, making the stats 2-4 fights and between a half and a full kill per night.

We're fighting other people in this game, and those people have stakes in the fight. They lose and they're out a ship, possibly a clone, along with the time it takes to put together a replacement. This isn't Halo, where you just respawn and have at it.

[Lyn Farel]

@ Lyn -

I was wondering, when you say that an issue is not to mix long range and short range weapons, would this include the use of drones?

What I am thinking *(and bear in mind, I don't know much about PvP yet), could you fit a ship for a sniper role, then have drones for if the ship comes in close, or does the Kiter running a MWD make this not possible?

Also I know some ships can fit both turrets and missiles, would it be gimping yourself too much to fit long range turrets, and rockets for if the kiter gets in to close, or does this fall into the above issue with MWD making it not work?

~ Kazuma

The kiter will just kill your drones first. Since it will take him at least a little time to kill you, he has to kill the drones first. Even if light drones can follow you, they often fall in the stupid trap mechanism that makes drones burn their MWD to close the gap with the kiter, and thus not doing any damage until they are at range, to shut it down once at range, rinse and repeat.... So eventually they maybe hit the kiter 10% of the time...

And as I said above, fitting two different types of weapons except on a few exceptions - that are disappearing, like the old typhoon - is doomed to failure. Most people just either fit missiles on their TURRET ships because they have spare high slots and it slightly boost their DPS, or they just choose more generally to fit neutralizers instead (much more useful). Even if your missiles can reach your target, they will do nothing, because 1) they are not your primary weapons, so on a frigate of say, 200 DPS, 20 will actually come from your missiles, and 2) your missiles will maybe deal 20% of their actual DPS due to the speed of the kiter. Same with bonus turrets.

[Lyn Farel]

That's why you miss 95% of the fights you could get otherwise.

The thing is, though, that's part and parcel of the solo pvp game. Any decent solo pvp pilot has at least a reasonable idea of what they can and cannot take on, and they'll avoid the fights they can't win. Why wouldn't they? Gang warfare gets us used to the idea of frequent fights, but pure solo combat has never followed that pattern.

Since I'm mainly a frigate pilot, I'll talk mainly about frigates. That seems fair, since the majority of solo pvp happens in frigates.

I went looking for a real world equivalent to frigate pvp, and I settled on WWII aerial combat. Modern aerial warfare is the purview of aircraft armed with weapons that are largely "one hit, one kill", which doesn't really match up with Eve's "gradually wear down the hit points" model, so that's right out. WWI aircraft, with their greater or lesser emphasis on speed, agility, toughness and firepower provide an interesting analogue.

Now, granted, very little of the air combat in WWII was solo, it still provides some point of reference. We pvpers all like to think of ourselves as hot, so I went looking for combat figures for aces who survived the war, and the numbers were educational:

• "Bud" Anderson: 16.25 victories and 116 sorties - 1 kill per 7.1 missions
• Gabreski : 28 air victories and 193 missions - 1 kill per 6.9 missions
• John C. Meyer 24 victories and 200 missions - 1 kill per 8.3 missions
• Zemke 17.75 victories in 154 combat missions - 1 kill per 8.7 missions
• Lt. Col. John B. England: 17.5 victories and 108 combat mission - 1 kill per 6.2 missions
• Donald Bochkay: 13.83 victories and 123 Combat Missions - 1 kill per 8.9 missions

I also found some data about the average length of a combat mission, which was around 2-4 hours - about the same as a decent evening's roam in Eve.

These statistics are telling. On the average, these pilots got a kill every 7.6 missions, or one kill per 15-30 hours flown. Keep in mind that these pilots are all aces, and that they almost never flew in groups smaller than four, and this statistic becomes even more telling.

This doesn't reflect the number of actual fights, mind you, only the number of kills that resulted. There are estimates that only about 25-50% of fights (i.e.: where planes come into contact and start maneuvering, looking to shoot one another down) resulted in a kill, so if you're comparing that to Eve fights, the numbers are a little better: Assuming the worst statistics, that there were 4 fights per kill, we're still looking at only about one fight per two missions.

In Eve, if you're flying with a small gang for a few hours regularly, and you only got a fight every other day, you'd be upset. If 75% of those fights ended with no kills, you'd be livid.

When I was doing FW - and granted, I wasn't particularly effective in FW - I usually flew solo. I'd typically get one or two fights a night, but most of those ended with no kills (I usually flew a kiting Breacher, which has a hard time keeping people from escaping through gates). When I flew in a small gang, I'd get more fights a night, and more kills - typically 2-4 fights and at least that many kills, though if you really want to compare them to WWII victory stats you'd have to divide the kills by the number of people involved, making the stats 2-4 fights and between a half and a full kill per night.

We're fighting other people in this game, and those people have stakes in the fight. They lose and they're out a ship, possibly a clone, along with the time it takes to put together a replacement. This isn't Halo, where you just respawn and have at it.

That's why most games, even if trying to emulate a realistic feel (and Eve does certainly not), remain mostly games and not pure simulators. Pure simulators are boring to most people. Have you tried Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator with 100% realistic parameters ? A nightmare. It was awesome and fun at 0%-20%.

The issue to me is not that people will avoid a doomed fight, the issue is the rock/paper/scissors design. It has rarely been fun in any multiplayer game. It is something that is doomed to failure hated in RTS games where people have to guess what the other player will choose and cross their fingers to have chosen the good counter, or they are dead otherwise. Granted, we are not in a RTS, but it still bears the same shortcomings.

Without such a mechanic, either through meta where everyone flies the same shit, or through a more granular gameplay, people would not be that much able to tell "I'm not going to engage this, it's the perfect counter to what I fly".

Edit : and since we are into WW2 comparisons, pilots were definitely not telling themselves once a fight started between various models of fixed wing aircrafts "I'm not going to engage that zero fighter in close combat, it will tear me apart whatever I try" but more probably "I'm going to have a difficult time against such a plane since it has superior agility, but I can try to use the weight and rate of climb of my own plane to outmatch his abilities and take him out. And anyway I don't really have that much the choice to start with".

But the parallel stops there since most of air combat was about spotting the enemy first and relying on one's own experience (since most lethal shots, if not all, were always done to rookies in their first flights). In Eve, it's mostly "catch me if you can" jump warp jump jump warp warp.

It's boring to me.

[Gottii]

I've always thought, as a pilot and an FC, that most people's views of "pvp" are rather limited.  Getting the engagement, luring your opponent, finding ways to obtain a favorable tactical situation, this is what made pvp interesting to me, and all of that generally happened long before anyone pressed F1.

Mostly, I think of solo pvpers complaining about EVE mechanics making it hard to get fights pretty much like mission runners complaining about being war decced every once in awhile or freighter pilots complaining about suicide ganks: in short, theyre probably playing the wrong game for what they want. 

I never thought of solo pvp as the height of EVE pvpdom, even when I did a bit of it.  I'm much more interested in the interplay of pilots and various types of ships in small fleets and in engagements.  (probably had the most fun in fleets under a dozen or so).  Thats where EVE shines, imho, and frankly where I think EVE's focus should always be. 

Being able to get interesting fights is a skill, probably the most important PVP skill. And it will always be a skill, one that needs to be learned and mastered, regardless of whatever game changes CCP might make.  Altaen was simply brilliant at it, for instance, but a lot of EM's best pilots and FCs knew how and where to get consistent engagements whether their fleets were large or a bare handful.

In short, I really dont think CCP should really focus too much on helping solo pvp consistently get fights. Frankly, thats the solo pvpers job, not CCPs.  Theyre intentionally trying to fight with one arm behind their back, its supposed to be difficult. Its an MMO folks, one thats ruthless and claims to make losses hurt.  It should always be more advantageous (and likely enjoyable) in that environment to bring a couple buddies. 

[Silas Vitalia]

I've always thought, as a pilot and an FC, that most people's views of "pvp" are rather limited.  Getting the engagement, luring your opponent, finding ways to obtain a favorable tactical situation, this is what made pvp interesting to me, and all of that generally happened long before anyone pressed F1.

This is very true for EVE.  The problem has always been plenty of people just want to run around in ships until combat happens, and EVE in its current incarnation favors the tactic of 90% pre-planning and 10% execution of plan.   

I've always wanted Eve to do a straight up mass-participation "Arena" for capsuleers and small teams, with 'weight classes' and different sorts of things, and betting and all sorts of fun stuff.

[Gottii]

I've always thought, as a pilot and an FC, that most people's views of "pvp" are rather limited.  Getting the engagement, luring your opponent, finding ways to obtain a favorable tactical situation, this is what made pvp interesting to me, and all of that generally happened long before anyone pressed F1.

This is very true for EVE.  The problem has always been plenty of people just want to run around in ships until combat happens, and EVE in its current incarnation favors the tactic of 90% pre-planning and 10% execution of plan.   

I've always wanted Eve to do a straight up mass-participation "Arena" for capsuleers and small teams, with 'weight classes' and different sorts of things, and betting and all sorts of fun stuff.

Literally absolutely nothing stopping people from doing this given current mechanics.  It just could be driven by players, not game mechanics or CCP.   Could even be a cool thing IC.

[Saede Riordan]

I've always thought, as a pilot and an FC, that most people's views of "pvp" are rather limited.  Getting the engagement, luring your opponent, finding ways to obtain a favorable tactical situation, this is what made pvp interesting to me, and all of that generally happened long before anyone pressed F1.

Mostly, I think of solo pvpers complaining about EVE mechanics making it hard to get fights pretty much like mission runners complaining about being war decced every once in awhile or freighter pilots complaining about suicide ganks: in short, theyre probably playing the wrong game for what they want. 

I never thought of solo pvp as the height of EVE pvpdom, even when I did a bit of it.  I'm much more interested in the interplay of pilots and various types of ships in small fleets and in engagements.  (probably had the most fun in fleets under a dozen or so).  Thats where EVE shines, imho, and frankly where I think EVE's focus should always be. 

Being able to get interesting fights is a skill, probably the most important PVP skill. And it will always be a skill, one that needs to be learned and mastered, regardless of whatever game changes CCP might make.  Altaen was simply brilliant at it, for instance, but a lot of EM's best pilots and FCs knew how and where to get consistent engagements whether their fleets were large or a bare handful.

In short, I really dont think CCP should really focus too much on helping solo pvp consistently get fights. Frankly, thats the solo pvpers job, not CCPs.  Theyre intentionally trying to fight with one arm behind their back, its supposed to be difficult. Its an MMO folks, one thats ruthless and claims to make losses hurt.  It should always be more advantageous (and likely enjoyable) in that environment to bring a couple buddies.

This. All of this. So very much.

[Desiderya]

Exactly, Gotti. And I'd agree - small gang is the most enjoyable mix for me, too, between individual pilot skill/responsibility/impact and FC/TC skill.

We've been collecting a fair bit of whin(g)ing in our time in FW, and it mostly resolves around "YOU SHIPPED UP YOU HAD NO SKILL" "YOU BROUGHT IN FRIENDS YOU HAVE NO SKILL" and it always comes from the same people who like to wait until they've got at least 50% more in numbers or superior ships if they have the chance. It's that, everyone does it, you use what you have at your disposa to win fightsl. You feign weakness to get a fight started, then you drop the hammer to swing odds (heavily) into your favour.

You don't go into a fight expending to lose, just to entertain your enemies. You take risks because you think it's worth it, or you welp your fleet in order to take down something more expensive.

When you solo you've got the same tools at your disposal. Let's talk about 'True solo' and disregard alts and you can still use an array of tactics to shift things into your favor. Fancy implants or drugs, fits that are good at control (and therefore disengaging if local spikes). No secret why many favor kiting ships or very fast hulls that can disengage when the excrement hits the ventilation. It's all about stacking the deck in your favor. Whether this is solo, small gang or big gang doesn't matter. EVE rewards winning, so you try to win. We've had gangs of 20+ GalMil pilots hopping into system, hugging together in one plex (bonus points when it's with the biggest ship class allowed in), crawing at the semi-random 10 Calmil guys in local that they're cowards for not bringing a fight. Yeah, about that. :p

[Saede Riordan]

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
-Sun Tsu, Art of War

[Lyn Farel]

I've always thought, as a pilot and an FC, that most people's views of "pvp" are rather limited.  Getting the engagement, luring your opponent, finding ways to obtain a favorable tactical situation, this is what made pvp interesting to me, and all of that generally happened long before anyone pressed F1.

Mostly, I think of solo pvpers complaining about EVE mechanics making it hard to get fights pretty much like mission runners complaining about being war decced every once in awhile or freighter pilots complaining about suicide ganks: in short, theyre probably playing the wrong game for what they want. 

I never thought of solo pvp as the height of EVE pvpdom, even when I did a bit of it.  I'm much more interested in the interplay of pilots and various types of ships in small fleets and in engagements.  (probably had the most fun in fleets under a dozen or so).  Thats where EVE shines, imho, and frankly where I think EVE's focus should always be. 

Being able to get interesting fights is a skill, probably the most important PVP skill. And it will always be a skill, one that needs to be learned and mastered, regardless of whatever game changes CCP might make.  Altaen was simply brilliant at it, for instance, but a lot of EM's best pilots and FCs knew how and where to get consistent engagements whether their fleets were large or a bare handful.

In short, I really dont think CCP should really focus too much on helping solo pvp consistently get fights. Frankly, thats the solo pvpers job, not CCPs.  Theyre intentionally trying to fight with one arm behind their back, its supposed to be difficult. Its an MMO folks, one thats ruthless and claims to make losses hurt.  It should always be more advantageous (and likely enjoyable) in that environment to bring a couple buddies.

Your post reeks of YDIW, or at least "my way of playing the game is better than yours".

Well excuse me for being limited then. I could also say that I find people only focusing on luring one's opponent, finding ways to obtain a favorable tactical situation and so on, have a rather limited view as well, but I won't, it's just a different conception of pvp and having fun elsewhere. I happen to think that both can be fun, either that or combat, but combat actually isn't most of the time, and anyway barely happens in solo. It has been worse and worse over the years, and i'm not the only solo pvpers claiming it.

In my defense, I have had great, great fun as a FC, either small groups or 10-20 men fleets. I have had my successes and also evenings without anything. I have always appreciated the tactical appreciation and depth at this level. Even if very cold and rationally thinking, making me missing a lot of fights we could have maybe won or have had fun out of, it also made me and my fleets rather successful in most of our engagements. Just a FC among others, but I sure was able to get fights, or find them, or provoke them.

It doesn't work that way in solo.

And for having done solo pvp, I do think that tactical evaluation is rather limited. As I said above, either you fly the rock and the enemy flies scissors, or the opposite, or both the same cookie cutter shit. The same way, finding fights, luring enemies into traps, and all that so called tactical dimension is pretty dull and absent of that game in solo. It's mostly cats chasing mouses or mouses fleeing from cats, or worse, blobs. That's what you spend your time doing in solo pvp. Boring.

Of course Eve shines more in fleet pvp. So because of that and because it's what you prefer, Eve should focus on that only ? 

Sorry to disagree. It's the game maker job to make a facet of their game interesting and playable. The job of the players only comes after. If you do not have that basis, then it's worthless.

[Havohej]

I'm having no trouble in solo pvp, lately.  Whether running about in my Pilgrief, Wolf, Cyclone, Hurricane or Loki.  It's been a bad week for the alliance's killboard, but that notwithstanding, I'm having a lot of fun when I fly alone.

Even though these changes aren't in effect yet, I've taken a good hard look at the Sacrilege and will be buying one this week - for solo pvp before the changes and after.  I'll also be buying a fleet Sacrilege for small gang work.  Two seperate fitting theories at play there, and so separate rigs needed... thus, two hulls.  Considering a second Loki for the same reason, tbh... an armored Loki might just be a good thing for me soon.

Anyway, yeah, solo not broken imo.  It just requires patience - like everything else in EVE - and an enjoyment of the hunt itself.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

The only problem with your post, Lyn, is that Solo and Gang and Fleet PvP don't exist in three different contexts. We're always meeting solo PvP'ers when we roam. Usually older pilots than me. Usually having spent more money on their fits.

Most of the time we beat them, because we fly a nice mix of ship types.

Oh, the tears in Local. OGBs suck. Numbers suck. TDs are OP. Caldari ships are OP. But it very rarely matters WHAT a wolfpack of five to ten ships brings to a solo ship fight -  they're going to win.