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[Nicoletta Mithra]

Duels and judicial duels aren't quite the same thing, Lall.

Dueling as a honor practice, without any judicial component, outlasted judicial dueling by centuries. All you need for that is a gentry class with an overdeveloped sense of honor and dishonor.

The comments about caste for Amarr really matter. If you are a commoner and you insult a holder, a duel is not what you are going to be facing. If you are a holder and insult a commoner, nothing is going to happen. I would expect that duels among holders are rare, why engage in a personal duel when you own a private army? I expect the empire would be pretty worried that duels among holders would escalate to wars pretty quickly. I would expect a "Duel" between holders would involve troop movements, imperial politics, theological inquisitions, and so on.

Where I expect Amarrian duels is among the True Amarr wealthy commoners and the Khanid. There you have your Amarrian gentry equivalent. People whose honor is not secure at all but who have a great deal of military training and/or wealth. When your claim to being above the normal commoner is paper thin, then you have a huge incentive to loudly and aggressively respond to any insults to your status.

I largely agree with what Gaven said, especially with seeing the main arena of duels with the True Amarr wealthy commoner and the Khanid.

I'd see differences though between the various dominions in the Empire. For example, with the belligerent Sarum family duels might be more accepted than elsewhere. After all Sarum prides itself on it's military tradition and aggressiveness. (I'd even go so far to expect that in Sarumite regions small scale wars between nobles are not entirely unwelcome as they serve to keep troops sharp and experienced.) Also, I'd guess that the lowest rungs of the noble class would have some incentive to duel as well, when their claim to their status grows thinner.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Duels we're used when there was no police force to talk of.

Duels in the form of mensurs survive to this day in Germany, Poland and the like, despite the extensive police forces in those countries.

[Galen Darksmith]

I'd say that duels among the Caldari tend to be more indirect, at least among the upper echelons.  Competition is king, but a duel seems too limited.  I'd see battles of influences being far more common among anyone who isn't a blue collar sort.  Attempts to make the other guy look bad in front of the bossman, getting in touch with people to blacklist them, etc.  Those who don't really have much influence probably settle disputes in places where the corp can't see, since the corp has nothing to gain by losing an employee (or worse, gaining a disabled worker).

[Gottii]

Gallente and dueling is likely a case by case basis, depending on the individual planet and culture in question.  As with all things Gallente, hard to paint broad generalities.

I would imagine dueling in the Empire would be formalized on some level, since the very act of picking a new Emperor was based on champions and dueling and such. 

Minmatar likely have quite a bit of dueling protocols, or at least the Brutor would, with their emphasis on martial traditions and physical ability.

I would imagine dueling among the Caldari is about as common as dueling among wall street execs today.

[Silas Vitalia]

RE: Caldari

I imagine things tend more towards the corporate espionage/ share price warfare between companies.  Elaborate schemes with moles and spais, some causing so much loss of face as to force suicides from the 'loser' executives to save face.  No need to duel when I just caused your share price to drop 50%, stole your biggest client, and made off with your seekrit R&D files.  Now go suicide to save face for your CEO.

Check the "Art of War" graphic novel perhaps for some of the hyper-militant corporate oligopoly things. 

[Galen Darksmith]

I would imagine dueling among the Caldari is about as common as dueling among wall street execs today.

Except not every Caldari is a wall street exec.  They have workers just like every other nation.

RE: Caldari

I imagine things tend more towards the corporate espionage/ share price warfare between companies.  Elaborate schemes with moles and spais, some causing so much loss of face as to force suicides from the 'loser' executives to save face.  No need to duel when I just caused your share price to drop 50%, stole your biggest client, and made off with your seekrit R&D files.  Now go suicide to save face for your CEO.

Check the "Art of War" graphic novel perhaps for some of the hyper-militant corporate oligopoly things. 

But when wall street execs DO duel, it looks like this.

[Silas Vitalia]

Re: Amarr

In the same vein, I see fighting/dueling to revolve more around 'house' allegiance. 

Montague Gang: There go of the house of Capulet! Er... There go of the house of Kador! Do you bite your thumb at me, Ser?

And the higher it goes up the chain, the more I imagine it resembles House conflicts of DUNE.  Ancient, noble, with bitter hatred lasting generations, and schemes spanning decades, children, marriages, and secrets.

[Aria Jenneth]

Re: Caldari

I sort of doubt the Caldari have a surviving tradition of formal duels, though they may once have had one. Their low population during and after the Gallente/Caldari war would have made Lois McMaster Bujold's observation particularly relevant:

A skilled soldier kills your enemies, but a skilled duelist kills your allies.

Of course, fights, even pre-arranged fights, are probably pretty common.

[Saikoyu]

In my admittedly limited experience, dueling, as in one on one pistols at dawn (or swords, lasers, whatever), the classic view of dueling requires two things.  Lots of privilege, and lots of boredom.

In EvE, I can only see the Amarr and Galente having the right mix for these among the empires.  The Minmatar or Caldari, not so much.  The Minmatar yes I can see having one on one fights over something, sure.  But I can't see them having the privileged class that would lead to a "I demand satisfaction" duel.  Fights with rules, to the touch, cut, blood, death, sure.

Caldari, sort of the same thing.  I could see this among what passes for the disaffected youth, but it would be more gang fight (drawing this from too many old moives and anime) than one on one with rules and such.

Galente, oh yes.  Going off A Burning Life, the Galente are a people who will literally re-build themselves because they can.  More than enough wealth, privilege, and boredom there that people would cook up dueling.  I could see the fights being tracked on the web, famous fighters having groupies, being the rock stars of their nitch, and all completely illegal under Federation law but allowed to go on anyway on any planet.

Amarr, it could happen, more than enough prestige and power.  But I question the boredom side of things.  I don't think enough Amarrians' would be allowed to become bored enough with life to start this, or if they did, I don't think they would risk their own necks.  But that may just be my knee jerk reaction to a slave owning culture, I start drawing parallels with Rome and bread and circuses.


IMHO, YMMV, etc.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I agree. Duelling to the death is a waste of resources. But sparring? Challenges to prove your worth in one of the martial arts? Sparring that sometimes gets brutal beyond genteel demonstrations of skill?

Oh yeah - that sounds Caldari to me.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

It seems to me that a lot of people here assume that duel always have to end with one participant dead. I really don't see how that needs to be the case, especially given historical evidence that there have been a lot of duels that didn't and never meant to. (I think someone mentioned Musashi already to point this out.)

[Galen Darksmith]

It seems to me that a lot of people here assume that duel always have to end with one participant dead. I really don't see how that needs to be the case, especially given historical evidence that there have been a lot of duels that didn't and never meant to. (I think someone mentioned Musashi already to point this out.)

Alexander Hamilton died because a lot of duels were purposefully executed to leave both men unharmed, but honor satisfied.  When he and Arron Burr dueled, he purposefully missed his shot: the "gentlemanly" thing to do.  Burr however seriously had it in for Hamilton.  He aimed carefully, and killed Hamilton with his shot.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

So what? Does that anecdote prove anyhow that duels have to end with one participant dead? Also, there are other forms of dueling than dueling with pistols, which makes really just one weapon to duel with amongst many, which allow for having much more control over whether a duel ends deadly or not.

[Galen Darksmith]

So what? Does that anecdote prove anyhow that duels have to end with one participant dead? Also, there are other forms of dueling than dueling with pistols, which makes really just one weapon to duel with amongst many, which allow for having much more control over whether a duel ends deadly or not.

Quite the opposite: the "norm" was for the gentlemen involved to purposefully miss.  The whole point was that that duel was an aberration.

[Louella Dougans]

One of the Amarr cosmos missions has people duelling in spaceships. The agent considers this amusing, iirc.