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[Ciarente]

A question raised in relation to Heth and the Caldari factions (But what has Heth actually done for people to support him at all) got me thinking. We often talk about what the leaders of the eve factions are doing wrong (it tends to happen in RL political debates too so maybe it's a human tendency) but less often stretch our imaginations to consider what they're doing right - either from our own character's viewpoints or, if our character is absolutely dyed-in-the-wool opposed, that of a theoretical supporter.

So I'd like to challenge us all to look at the factions from that perspective. Please be positive, especially if you are addressing factions you don't RP, and try to find reasons for support that aren't just the same old 'they like him/her because s/he's evil and so are they'.

I'll start. My hypothetical Gallente supports Roden and Blaque because she thinks that liberty needs a strong defense. Yes, she's aware that some freedoms have been curtailed, but that really affects people who were abusing them anyway. Those Black Eagles wouldn't have raided that rock concert for no reason!  After all, the Caldari are on the orbital doorstep, and none of us will have any freedom if we don't have strong leaders who stop them.

[Davlos]

That just feeds on the "Nothing to hide; nothing to fear" myth that increases tyranny and opens the door to greater government abuse of power. To cite a RL case, there was a German national who got abducted by the CIA, flown to Afghanistan, tortured, sodomized and interrogated. They released him once they realized that they got the wrong guy, and the torture victim was snatched away for the sole crime of being of Arab ethnicity.

[Ciarente]

You've missed the point.

[Sepherim]

My hypothetical amarrian (sorry, not too sure on the other factions) supports the Empress because she saved us all from the Minmatarr invasion. And she freed the Empire of Karsoth (though I'm not sure it's public dominion that he was a Blooder) and put the Heirs back in line. And specially likes that the kingdom is, again thanks to her, part of the Empire.

[Ghost Hunter]

He's a pretty cool guy, hangs out in the club with us. Gives us the savior teachings and all that.

Edit ; serious response coming before Ciarente goes Jaws on me.

My hypothetical Minmatar supports the Sanmatar for helping to strengthen the Minmatar ways in spite of exterior influences. They weren't really into the Republic direction because it wasn't encompassing traditional Minmatar culture. It was producing, what they thought/experienced, a new culture of different people wearing familiar faces.

[Publius Valerius]

A question raised in relation to Heth and the Caldari factions (But what has Heth actually done for people to support him at all) got me thinking. We often talk about what the leaders of the eve factions are doing wrong (it tends to happen in RL political debates too so maybe it's a human tendency) but less often stretch our imaginations to consider what they're doing right - either from our own character's viewpoints or, if our character is absolutely dyed-in-the-wool opposed, that of a theoretical supporter.

So I'd like to challenge us all to look at the factions from that perspective. Please be positive, especially if you are addressing factions you don't RP, and try to find reasons for support that aren't just the same old 'they like him/her because s/he's evil and so are they'.

About the question of finding what someone is doing right; I have to say it is hard one for my character. As he is highly skeptical, and always under the fear that another Kingdom House will take the better from us.
So it is more a social ballet (Imagine it like the intrigue and decadence on the court of Versaille under King Louis XIV.), where one wrong move could be your social isolation. So standing out for the wrong case can be "deadly". Those cases can be inside the Kingdom or outside, one wrong move and someone will take advantage of it. Even blind loyalty to the King can be exploited, as well as your good will. But I will try to do my best  . 

My hypothetical amarrian (sorry, not too sure on the other factions) supports the Empress because she saved us all from the Minmatarr invasion. And she freed the Empire of Karsoth (though I'm not sure it's public dominion that he was a Blooder) and put the Heirs back in line. And specially likes that the kingdom is, again thanks to her, part of the Empire.

:)Bah ..... I hope CCP Abraxes will change also the last page here, like he had done with the Khanid II page. I dont belive that Eterne will change one of his own pages, and therefore say he had an error; as the Jamyl page has shown, he is to reluctant, to gallente  , to changes anything to his own stuff.

As for the topic, as for my faction or lets say former faction. I currently cant tell. Sadly the nature of our current status quo is to foggy.

As for crazy-cyber-bitch-queen, I cant tell what the whole Kingdom faction thinks, but what my Character has in mind:
-Fight of the Elder/Thukker invasion. ✓ *Publius makes a John stewart style CHECK.*
-And she freed the Empire of Karsoth. ✓ *Publius makes a John stewart style CHECK.*
-About: "put the Heirs back in line" First has she (I could make also the case, that the Heirs had become more powerful.)? So again: Has she become more powerful and had put the Heirs back in line? And if the answer is YES. Why is it a good thing (as the empire lifes thru its "checks-and-balances that many entrenched institutions and local barons"*? As I mention above, this balances can work against you, but you can also us them for your own goals. So my Character doesnt know, if it is good thing or not.
-About: "kingdom is, again thanks to her, part of the Empire." I would say, that is a open question. As I cant wait for Eternes none TonyG-ish explanation (none splitting of choices/tools/magic/ etc..)  of point three. I think, in a further revision will the speech, which Jamyl had gave (and which Eterne and Caul uses for their argument) be seen in a different light.

The same counts for Heth. My Character sees all the speeches very critical. the same counts for Foiritan and Roden. He sees stuff like: "They have, however, failed from the bottom to the top to supplant the inferior Gallente governments or to properly support the State Protectorate in maintaining sovereignty. As such, they have effective abandoned their assets."* As poor propaganda, to be more precisely: He trys to sell the Idea, that a invalidate of the blind auction is somehow rightful.


As summery: Overall I cant say much positive things about the leaders in New Eden. Just maybe one thing, which is maybe the most important one: THEY KNOW HOW THE SELL THEIR CASES. Meaning of they have goal, they can sell it to their folks/supporter. It isnt maybe, the grand answer, which I give; but also maybe the one comment ground of the four:

He's a pretty cool guy, hangs out in the club with us. Gives us the savior teachings and all that.

Edit ; serious response coming before Ciarente goes Jaws on me.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, that sure is more delicate than with the older leaders for me (Gariushi, Doriam, Foiritain, Midular), but I think that people support Roden for what Ciarente said, but also because he just is freaking popular. And popularity, as I understand it, makes a huge deal in gallente politics. He his a capsuleer too.

I think Jamyl is the easiest one, as Sepherim pointed out. She has a done a lot of things, compared to the 3 others. That's also maybe what makes Amarrian players less angry about her being a zombie possessed space lesbian.

Devil's advocate : in any case, the current leaders not having done a lot of "right things" quite fits with the grimdark universe.

[Laria Raven]

My hypothetical Caldari supports Heth because he represents hope. Sure, things haven't been going so great lately, but it's not an easy job. Heth represents the possibility that I might better myself, that I'm not stuck in this dead-end place. That it's not necessary to be born into a well-off family to succeed. And that one person can make a huge difference to the world. I may not ever do anything of significance, but Heth shows me that I can. Wasn't that the Caldari dream, anyway? That people would be given power on merit?

[Esna Pitoojee]

Esna is actually quite impressed by Sarum, for a number of reasons:

EXTERNALLY, she has shown herself to be a deft political manipulator, with acts like how...
- She has (had?) been keeping a solid hand on the people who'd rather just outright invade the Republic and Federation, making it clear that while the Empire will be defended, it will not be going back to the old GRR ARGH ENSLAVE EVERYONE model.
- She has tightened ties with the State, which Esna - although he does not like Heth personally - has a rather higher opinion of than the Federation.
- She has warmed relations with the Kingdom, something Esna was honestly shocked and impressed by. He didn't think it was possible this soon.

INTERNALLY, she has shown an understanding that the Empire must adjust to the world beyond and has taken several steps to begin sliding the Empire into this new reality, like how...
- She released the 9th gen slaves. Esna approves greatly; it is both an internal and external signal that the Empire is not stagnant, and that slavery in particular is not an eternal, neverending cycle of oppression.
- She has introduced significant changes to the Imperial Navy's methods of handling threats, breaking through the Navy's relatively frozen traditions.

[Samira Kernher]

Samira strongly supports Jamyl, for many of the same reasons as Esna. Particularly the release of the 9th-generation+ slaves, which included her. Regardless of the real reasons behind Jamyl's return, she has had a very positive effect on the Empire overall, so it's very easy to believe that she was brought back by the grace of God and is worth supporting.

My hypothetical Caldari would support Heth mostly out of what he represents more than what he does. I've wanted to make a ex-Navy Provist, one who believes that corporate infighting is harmful to the unity of the Caldari people and that a central government inspired by military hierarchy is necessary for a stronger State. Essentially believing that you can't trust people, that you need strong leaders who can and will do the right thing when it needs to be done without having to worry about people in boardrooms whining because their corporation doesn't benefit. And that sometimes, the ends do justify the means. Though lately it's becoming harder and harder to justify Heth's means.

My hypothetical Gallente would support Roden and Blaque for much the same reasons as Cia mentioned. Security over freedom, and all that. I typically play characters who flow in that direction.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

My problem with most of the leaders is that it's a horrible case of "tell, don't show!" We're told that these people are popular, that they can make everything awesome, but then we get a ton of contradictory information and quite frankly, few of them are particularly inspiring -- and what's worse, none of them seem to have earned their position on their own. Heth was a nothing, still is a nothing, and the only reason he manages to hold onto any sort of power is because he had the Broker's help, then Oiritsuu's, and it's never really been clear why populace of the Caldari supports him. Because he saved one dude during a riot that he instigated? His one success, taking Caldari Prime, doesn't seem particularly earned either, partly because it was just so poorly written.

Jamyl and Shakor seem much the same way to me, in that they seem clearly like someone's favorite character that they decided would be a special snowflake, at least in comparison to others (the way Midular was treated in TEA still leaves a vile taste in my mouth). Roden smells of this slightly too, but we haven't seen much of him, and Blaque definitely smells of it (he just happened to be war hero when it became convenient?). Perhaps it's because I have a serious hatred for those kinds of characters, especially when it seems like the world revolves around them, but I really wish they seemed more...human. Part of it may be that there's just so few of these kinds of characters that they don't ever seem to have to deal with equals and therefore seem to have no restraints.

Wow, that got bitchy. I guess I just see most of them less as characters and more as agents of the plot, which isn't very interesting. I wish they would move away from grand design and more towards incrementally moving the storyline forward in a way that makes sense.