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[Nicoletta Mithra]

Also, most of the times it's easy to drop a blade: the other way around it's often times not so easy.

And why would a slave try to have a counter to the attacks of an Amarrian fencing maestro's attacks?

[Adreena Madeveda]

I see what you mean. However as you are a student of Kenjutsu you will recall that at least one very famous practitioner of that art held that one should not die with a weapon undrawn and usually fought with two swords.
 

From what I have been told knife work is about rapid delivery of cuts to disorient and shock an opponent rather than one overwhelming blow. So think of this as the 125mm autocannon of the blade fighting world.

With the blade catchers it also seems like a logical counterpart to Nicoletta's Mary art.

Hmmm... Basing a whole martial art on what the (allegedly) best samurai EVAH was able to do ? ^^
Samurais traditionnaly wore two swords - thus the "not letting one undrawn"... and fighting at sword's length is very different from fighting at arm's length : the "both hands holding weapons at all times" doctrine forget that a free hand is pretty darn useful (hey, the thing can grab ^^).
Is this martial art is supposed to be, first and foremost, aesthetically pleasing (a perfectly legitimate concern if its purpose is ceremonial -I can easily imagine ancient minmatar rituals involving duels to the first blood or even death, from fecondity ceremonies to reenactment of some mythological fight), or is its concern martial efficiency ?
Or two schools, mocking one another for "doinitrong" ?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

So, even if I acknowledge how useful a free hand can be - and I do - as I said, one can in about all normal situations pretty easily get a free hand. There are many martial arts styles that train, though, with two weapons in hands and are based on that. Eskrima for example does so in many training systems. In kenjutsu nitojutsu (the use of both swords) is a not uncommon - not only in Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū which was, I'm sure you know, founded by Musashi, but also in other kenjutsu schools.

It's not because he was the best samurai 'evah' that he could do it and be successful with it - that was because he received proper training - but rather he was reputed to be one of the, if not the best kenshi of his time, at least, because he made extensive use of these techniques.

Two weapon fighting styles aren't simply aesthetically pleasing, but they are also quite deadly, especially if employed by a skilled practitioner. Also, there is no "both hands holding weapons at all times" doctrine in Ogunoke, rather it "is based around the use of one or two knives". I really don't see how a "both hands holding weapons at all times" doctrine flows from that. It sounds more like a "use two weapons when appropriate, when one is appropriate, use one" doctrine.

[Adreena Madeveda]

Yes, I am aware that kenjutsu (and in a lesser measure kendo) have schools/techniques dedicated to the use of two weapons -but again, sword-length isn't arm-length. Best swordman evah joke aside, from what I've seen, you're either very good and watching you fight is jaw-dropping, or just average-to-good and it looks clumsy. In my experience, it escalates : a talented fighter, trained to use two swords, may have a slight advantage over an equally talented (if such things can be measured, anyway) fighter using a single weapon. Lesser talented fighters are just weakening themselves doing so.

"Ogunoke [...] is based around the use of one or two knives" : my apologies, I skipped that point 

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I would have to point out at this stage that I, myself, am not a martial artist. I do know a few however and have discussed these ideas with them.

It seems to me that the two weapon variant would be useful against an opponent with a longer blade. One knife would be used to parry or bind the opponent's blade and open them up for the second knife. Further, having two blades might be useful against multiple opponents. Lastly, I suspect two knives are easier to co-ordinate than two swords of whatever length. Also, as has been stated, it's easy enough to drop a weapon if you need a free hand.

[Misan]

You wouldn't necessarily need a "free hand" to grab if you're using two knives. One of the great things about knives and some other weapons (tomahawks, see AC3 for example) are that they can be used as grabbing and controlling tools as well. If a knife is held blade down it can be used for hooking and grabbing with the back of the blade, whether that's for a parry or something offensive.

I've used or seen that grip used to sweep incoming attacks aside and for different sorts of pulls (mostly the shoulders to remove balance/setup for another attack).

Don't even think about dropping the weapon, I'd imagine that in EVE there would be well designed knife sheathes that make it easy to store the weapon quickly (little training required), especially with the blade down grip. With a good stance you would hold the knife (back/rear side) quite near to the hip anyway.

[Mithfindel]

The "fast storage of a light weapon when losing grip on it" is called a "lanyard". Also helpful if someone tries to disarm you, though not very helpful if your weapon gets stuck on something. I would assume that a high-tech environment would have lanyards connected to the forearm, allowing to easily pull the weapon back into the sleeve at a simple gesture by the user or detatch the weapon at another gesture.

Back to the earlier discussion, it is also my understanding - can't remember the source, and Wikipedia has [ citation needed ], too - that even Musashi didn't use the off-hand sword when fighting a serious opponent (such as the dueling mentioned in Wikipedia). Though apparently the use of main gauche (off-hand dagger, literally "left hand" in French) is a real thing on several fencing schools.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The "fast storage of a light weapon when losing grip on it" is called a "lanyard". Also helpful if someone tries to disarm you, though not very helpful if your weapon gets stuck on something. I would assume that a high-tech environment would have lanyards connected to the forearm, allowing to easily pull the weapon back into the sleeve at a simple gesture by the user or detatch the weapon at another gesture.

Back to the earlier discussion, it is also my understanding - can't remember the source, and Wikipedia has [ citation needed ], too - that even Musashi didn't use the off-hand sword when fighting a serious opponent (such as the dueling mentioned in Wikipedia). Though apparently the use of main gauche (off-hand dagger, literally "left hand" in French) is a real thing on several fencing schools.

I read an essay recently that states that the two weapon style of fencing was eventually succeeded by a one sword style. Apparently the Italian schools tended to teach the use of an off hand weapon whereas the Spanish schools concentrated on attack & defense with the sword alone.

I've seen people fighting with two knives, granted in a LARP environment that isn't realistic by a long shot, and it did seem to be a good way to deliver a lot of damage very quickly. If and only if you could get inside the enemy's guard.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

As to Musashi fighting oftentimes with only the Katana, he himself wrote: "You can win with a long weapon, and yet you can also win with a short weapon. In short, the Way of the Ichi school is the spirit of winning, whatever the weapon and whatever its size."

The point is, there are different situations and whether you need an off-hand weapon or not, depends on the situation. After all, most of Musashi's reported fights seem to have been duels which he decided with a single strike. It seems that he preferred to use both weapons on the battlefield.

As to fencing, I think there was an overall development from the use of solely the sword towards sword and dagger and back again. I think it was mainly due to the situations in which a fencer found himself, given by the occasions at which he employed his art - war, dueling and later on sports.

The Spanish fencing system - afaik - Destreza did mainly teach fencing without offhand weapon, even when the italians (and later the french) fencing schools employed the dagger: But they had their techniques with the main gauche as well and also with cloak as a side arm and the buckler and round shield and even did teach how to fence with the two-handed sword, the flail, and polearms such as the pike and halberd. I'm not quite sure what esgrima vulgar of the Spanish did teach, tough.

[Mithfindel]

The development of fencing to one-handed swords has to do with the fact that when there was less armour, lunging (long thrust) with a long weapon became the most effective tactic, if I've understood right.

Nicoletta's quote reminds me of Guy Windsor, who teaches (medeival) swordsmanship in Helsinki. (We had a club doing that in the local university, a few friends practiced.) He had, on a demonstration, shown different ways - dagger vs. sword, unarmed vs. sword etc. Someone asks him why to use a weapon at all if you can get disarmed so easily. The answer was "would you like to come take this weapon from me?"

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Destreza never used the lunge, considering it to be reckless and quite dangerous and employed a lot of counter tactics that made the Spanish fencers the most feared opponents of fencers hailing from the Italian (and later French) schools, who were used to fencing along the line, while the Spanish fencers preferred movements to the side, encircling their opponent (something that Musashi embraces as well in his book of five rings irrc). So, while people in the Italian fencing tradition claim that the lunge with a long weapon was 'the most effective tactic' and effected a lot of changes to fencing, I don't think that is something one should take at face value: I think the Spanish maestros were right when they saw this potentially devastating maneuver as reckless and not only dangerous for who'd be the possible victim of this attack.

Therefore, I'm not quite sure if it was the lunge that caused the parrying dagger going out of use. I think it has more to do with the ongoing formalizing of fencing-dueling, with evolving 'rules' that favored movements along the line and the following changes in stance, which meant that the fencers body was between the opponent and his own off hand, coupled with the development of small sword, épée and foil that went well with a style that favored fast decisive (even if somewhat reckless and dangerous) actions (something the Italian style did).

Nor was dropping the use of the off-hand dagger (the main gauche) a reaction to less armor - it was mainly a parrying tool in rapier fights and a reaction to the lack of armor to begin with. Though, of course the lack of armor use was a necessary precondition for the faster weapons to have much of an effect and being usable, as someone in heavy armor was not able to move as quickly as needed with these light weapons.

So, I think that we don't see the off-hand dagger employed in classical fencing anymore is the result of the Italian and French schools of fencing developing from a mode of effectively killing an opponent to a way of two gentlemen settling their differences in a formalized framework.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

<snip>
So, I think that we don't see the off-hand dagger employed in classical fencing anymore is the result of the Italian and French schools of fencing developing from a mode of effectively killing an opponent to a way of two gentlemen settling their differences in a formalized framework.

Well I see you guys are much better read on the history of fencing than I am. Now this is not a complaint because I do find this diversion interesting, but it is a diversion from the original topic.

This last comment about fencing moving from a fighting form to a sporting form makes me ponder about how Ogunoke might change over the years. For example, originally practitioners would try to avoid showing any signs of being so, as it is illegal. Now, however, with schools openly teaching in the Republic (and possibly beyond) is it possible traditions similar to the Heidelberg one of receiving scars might spring up?

Maybe a conflict between more formal teachers and followers of some Bruce Lee type who wants to return to the origins as a fighting art and is prepared to innovate?

[Misan]

Going back to Capoeira there is some interesting historical evolution as it's gained legitimacy and become more formalized. Keeping in mind that capoeira still hasn't become any form of sport, so there aren't rigid rules per se, just safety/respect concerns during roda that change how the art is practiced.

From my understanding (as capoeirista friends have explained) before formal schools existed those who practiced it were far more violent and generally used weapons (knives and the like). As capoeira has become more accepted the teaching of weapons has pretty much entirely disappeared and some of the more aggressive kicking techniques are rarely taught, or at least used. I've been taught a couple and told that I shouldn't use them in roda because they are more 'fighting' techniques and too dangerous to use in that context.

I could see tensions between the the more rigid formal schools, especially if any sort of ritual or sporting element has arisen vs. the more practical, self-defense oriented, teachers of the art. That tension exists plenty in the martial arts world even between completely different arts (Tae Kwon Do vs. Krav Maga or similar) so it's not a stretch to imagine worse tension could exist within the same one.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Very nicely done!

Does anyone remember Wren's Seven Forms, waaay back in the day? The Minmatar Republic is a big place, and I can totally see (and I'd love to) a bunch of different martial arts that reflected their tribal origins. The various Brutor martial arts would be, I imagine, very different than the Sebiestor ones, for instance.

As far as knife fighting goes, it might be cool to bring in elements of western martial arts such as Dussack or Navaja. Navaja is especially interesting because it uses a folding knife. Folding utility knives are such useful basic tools that you could easily imagine a Navaja-like martial art developing amongst enslaved Minmatar as a way of using what blades they might be allowed.

[Nofearion]

I am new to this forum and wish I would have found it much sooner. both of my toons are Vherokior. I write fiction based on eve and have mentioned but with no detail that the whole family is based on a warrior culture. Most of witch is a borrowed mix of Asian culture. Two past legends I have come up with. One is use of a Dashio blade, coicidentally similar to the single edge bladed mention in the post above. the second is the FearSinger, this can be found in Chinise history as cries and chants in the night to disrupt and create fear in the enemy as warriors crept up and slew their foe as the slept.
I would really like to collaborate with a few of you on defining several martial arts based on the major races of the Minmatar. As noted there are many schools of thought and strategies used in weapon on weapon, range hand to weapon and you get the idea. You can base three distinct schools of Marital art regardless of the origin. Military- Samurai, Gojoru Jujitsu ext and many forms these are based on efficiency of combat with multiple opponents. Self Defense - Most martial art fall in this category and are the most prevalent of hand to hand. Sport - Fencing, Judo, ect - based on single one on one combat and are variants at  base with many military styles. I have been an avid student for many years and a qualified instructor of Akido at the root all of your self defense and military combat teaches you to use what is at hand and teach techniques and strategies to use them effectively. The Minmatar people are resilient yet resourceful and I believe there would be several different styles with assimilation into some common themes. As a slave people those would be the ones who in the old Asian feudal cultures, the opressed made use of common items as weapons.  keep in mind not all Minmatar became slaves just a large portion, My RP is based on the Stormrage Clan as not former slaves all though one of the family was captured later after the Amarr were repelled. Please let me know if any of you are interested in defining some possible martial arts for the Minamatar people.  We can also speculate the foundation of martial arts for the other races as well. The best way to defend against and enemy is to know how he fights.