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[kalaratiri]

I TL:DR'd this entire thread, did I miss anything good?

If someone could give me a TL:DR, that would be nice

[Nicoletta Mithra]

There you go, Kala:

This is surreal.

Yeah, I'm confused, too.

So, general question, in the interests of understanding:

Some people seem to have a deep-seated need for the Caldari to be greedy space nazis, while others seem to want them to be a Randian meritocratic paradise. In much similar vein, it seems to me this debate is about some people wanting the Amarr to be pig-eyed, whip-wielding slavers, while others want them to be basically okay people with a strange quirk in their moral system that they're otherwise very nice about, now there's a good slave, have a cup of tea.

Oh, and then there's some people way out in left field discussing empiricism, Popper, strict logic, and proof structure, as if we're debating philosophy of science, instead of imaginary space people.

Would that be an accurate caricature of the debate, at this point?

[Publius Valerius]

debate on slavery.

Than please to it.... but like I said.... without that I get tickle form your comments.... and not forget you have always to argue why.... not just add a definition.... That isnt logical....it isnt even an argument. I thought you have study it?

[Matariki Rain]

I said my bit back on page 4:

There's a pretty basic disjunction between those who consider that slavery is, by its very nature, a fundamental abuse of human rights, and those who consider that slavery is an effective and desirable way of bringing the souls of the benighted to God, which is one of the highest human callings. For the former, it doesn't matter how "nicely" it may be implemented. For the latter, it's either worth some cost in suffering (Lallara uses the word "penance") to achieve such an elevated goal, or the "discipline" shaped by that suffering is part of the goal.

OOC, it's worth remembering that these are our agreed IC starting positions, and we're playing a game from there. The Amarrian starting point is going to be attacked IC by most characters who don't share its religious framework, and OOC by most players as essentially unsympathetic to modern sensibilities. Accept those game conditions and run with it: Amarrian player OOC victory conditions seem essentially about getting support and respect for taking a tricky starting point and playing it well, not to have people sympathising with the content of what you're playing.

ArtOfLight had a decent--though longer--post on page 10.

[Astrid Stjerna]

2)would it be wrong to make our characters make judgements because they might be influenced by our OOC feelings?

Here's my take on this:

Should our characters make judgements IC based on our personal feelings OOC?  I don't think so.  The entire point of role-playing is that the characters are not our OOC selves.  I detest and abhor slavery with every fiber of my being -- but would it make sense for Evelyn have the same feelings?

So...that's my .02.  Make of it what you will.

See you in the space-place!

[Lyn Farel]

2)would it be wrong to make our characters make judgements because they might be influenced by our OOC feelings?

Here's my take on this:

Should our characters make judgements IC based on our personal feelings OOC?  I don't think so.  The entire point of role-playing is that the characters are not our OOC selves.  I detest and abhor slavery with every fiber of my being -- but would it make sense for Evelyn have the same feelings?

So...that's my .02.  Make of it what you will.

See you in the space-place!

I think it is a subtle question where basing IC judgements on OOC feelings arbitrary is something to avoid, but at the same time it is not wrong either to use OOC feelings as a basis/example/guide of what can a character feel, since you cannot make any truer feeling than a RL feeling.

I mean, taking OOC feelings/ideas and copy pasting them on a character is clunky and bad form imo and only helps to make your character an unrealistic double of yourself (which is meh). But getting inspired by OOC various feelings, be it yours, or someone else's, and then adapting them to your character in a coherent way, can be interesting I guess, even if dangerous.

[hellgremlin]

So, I've been beating this dead horse, but it just won't get up and run.

[Astrid Stjerna]

I think it is a subtle question where basing IC judgements on OOC feelings arbitrary is something to avoid, but at the same time it is not wrong either to use OOC feelings as a basis/example/guide of what can a character feel, since you cannot make any truer feeling than a RL feeling.

I mean, taking OOC feelings/ideas and copy pasting them on a character is clunky and bad form imo and only helps to make your character an unrealistic double of yourself (which is meh). But getting inspired by OOC various feelings, be it yours, or someone else's, and then adapting them to your character in a coherent way, can be interesting I guess, even if dangerous.

I'm not disputing that -- I think if we use OOC ideas to bolster our RP, it makes the character more realistic.  But hating on the player because the character's views are objectionable to you on a real-life level...

Okay, let me illustrate what I mean (since I'm having a hard time with the words):

Several years ago, I was playing Neverwinter Nights on a multiplayer server -- my character, again, was a slaver (wonder what that says about me...)  I was invited to another server where the rules said that such things were okay, but slave characters were considered equals., so I moved my character over there.

I wasn't there for ten minutes before the co-GM of the server literally sat her character in front of us and started repeated (not very subtle) attempts to convince us that slavery was wrong.  There was no in-character reasoning behind it, no motivation -- the GM just though that slavery was evil, OOC, and tried everything she could to 'Mary-Sue' us into compliance.

I've used OOC inspiration to guide my characters' development before, and there's truly nothing wrong with that.  Having your character be nasty to someone else's character solely because you dislike their character concept is just mean and petty.

[Lyn Farel]

I am not disputing what you said either. ^^

[Lithium Flower]

Let me add my drop of view on the subject, and please excuse me, if someone stated it already above.

From caldari point of view, slavery is bad only because of two reasons:
* first - slavery is against the law, and
* second - slavery is not efficient.
Caldari wasn't engaged in slavery affairs at all, and the law against slavery is, most probably, an inheritance of caldari-gallente federation. Since most caldari still consider slavery as not effective and too much hussle (imagine you have to make room for peoples, feed them, educate, teach them your religious ways, make them happy so they will work and not kill you with Khuumak, etc etc etc) compared to simply hired personnel, any propositions to remove ban of slavery hasn't been raised.
Generally Caldari society is based on honor and respect ideals. So, when a Caldari merchant is dealing with Amarrian merchant, he must respect laws and customs of Amarrian merchant. Since slavery for a Caldarian is just inefficient way, respectful Caldari won't notice it at all and won't be speaking or thinking bad things about slavery (it's not like it is mmhh ok, it's bad, it is more like mmmhhm it is unusual and not efficient), of course, until it is outside of the State. It is forbidden in the State, but not forbidden outside of the State, and Caldari must respect other peoples laws.

However, when someone brings slaves to Caldari space, he breaks Caldari law, and shows disrespect to Caldari. And then Caldari can show disrespect towards him, and yell at him and order him to GET THE <censored> OUT YOUR <censored> SLAVES! 

[Rodj Blake]

Yeah, I'm confused, too.

So, general question, in the interests of understanding:

Some people seem to have a deep-seated need for the Caldari to be greedy space nazis, while others seem to want them to be a Randian meritocratic paradise. In much similar vein, it seems to me this debate is about some people wanting the Amarr to be pig-eyed, whip-wielding slavers, while others want them to be basically okay people with a strange quirk in their moral system that they're otherwise very nice about, now there's a good slave, have a cup of tea.

In both cases the two viewpoints are not incompatible with each other.

It's quite possible for someone to think of themselves as a Randian hero while others see them as a greedy space nazi.   Likewise, a slaver may well see themselves as upright and moral while opponents of slavery will see them as whip-wielding nutters.

And the scary thing is, all of those views could be valid.

For example...

Future Kryten: Kryten, we're epicures now.  We travel through history enjoying the very best time has to offer.

Future Rimmer: Dolphin sweetmeats, roast suckling elephants, baby seal hearts stuffed with dove pate.  Food fit for emperors!

Future Lister: We socialize with all of the greatest figures in history -- the Hapsburgs, the Borgias ...

Future Kryten: Why, only last week, Louis the Sixteenth threw a banquet especially in our honour.

Future Rimmer: The man is a complete delight -- urbane, witty, charming ...

Kryten: He was an idiotic despot who lived in the most obscene luxury while the working classes starved in abject poverty.

Future Rimmer: Well, we certainly didn't see any of that while we were there!

Future Kryten: And his wife's an absolute cutie.

Future Cat: I think they're our favourite hosts.  If you don't count the Hitlers.

Kryten: The who?!

Future Rimmer: Providing you avoid talking politics, they're an absolute hoot.

Kryten: You're good friends with the Hitlers?!

Future Kryten: It's just a social thing.  We don't talk about his work.  We just have a few laughs, play canasta, and enjoy the odd game of mixed doubles with the Goerings.

Kryten: I don't believe what I'm hearing!

Future Rimmer: Look, you have to understand -- we travel back and forth throughout the whole of history, and naturally we want to sample the best of everything.  It's just a bit unfortunate that the finest things tend to be in the possession of people who are judged to be a bit dodgy.