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[Matariki Rain]

It seems to me, that the Vherokior shamans are the one that are equated with being mystics, not Matari shamans in general.

Indeed, but do you have any evidence for Minmatar shamans who are not Vherokior males? If you do, I'd really like to see it.

(Most people I know play that there are shamans who aren't Vherokior men, but as far as I can tell that's non-canonical. Also, even if you have your own shamans it sounds like you need a Vherokior to handle the serum and mystical spirit guide aspects of a Voluval.)

Nothing that they do, though, seems to point to them as adherents to a mystical theology or philosophy, that is one that revolves around the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God or something alike.

If there's a unifying feature of Matari religion I see it as the pursuit of religious ecstasy. For me, this fits with both the mystical and the shamanistic angles. It's supported by the Raafa-Kon nightclubs and sacred sex (The Empyrean Age), and I'd argue also by the journey-hunger-drug divining of knowledge and the way forward (Chronicle: Methods of Torture - The Minmatar - which I believe is about Vherokior, too, given the names and the reference to the Sobaki sands). And other snippets, but my PF-enthusiasm is fading.

It also fits the description of Matari shamans being 'psychomancers'.

I'm not quite sure that we're interpreting that quotation the same way. The shamans read entrails. The psychomancers read ship sounds. (It's not the best name for it...)

This said, I maintain that Matari shamans aren't mystics in the sense of being practitioners of mysticism. I also maintain that one shouldn't call them mystics - especially if not referring specifically to the Vherokior shamans - for clarities sake. As for the Vherokior, it's in the PF so one can say little against it, but that they are New Agey fluff mystics, imho. ;P

That comment does make me wonder, again, about your view of Minmatar shamans. Where does the New Age fluff come in?

I think they are mystics, but I also don't really care what labels other people want to apply to them. If you find it uncomfortable that's no big deal to me. Just curious.

[Silver Night]

While there isn't direct evidence, I would think that in a civilization of trillions of people, there are probably non-Vherokior shamans. Unless it's simply that spiritual leaders who aren't Vherokior are called something else?

Edit: To expand, given teh shambles that a lot of PF is, I hesitate any time I see CCP use an absolute (ie, all shamans are Vherokior Males).

[Matariki Rain]

While there isn't direct evidence, I would think that in a civilization of trillions of people, there are probably non-Vherokior shamans. Unless it's simply that spiritual leaders who aren't Vherokior are called something else?

Edit: To expand, given teh shambles that a lot of PF is, I hesitate any time I see CCP use an absolute (ie, all shamans are Vherokior Males).

You slipped an edit in there between me reading and starting my reply.

Tell me about this hesitation...

I think that every time we encounter "shaman" in PF it's in the context of "Vherokior male". One new chronicle could change that, of course, but if that is indeed the current situation in PF I'm inclined to treat it as significant.

We have it pretty clearly that it's Vherokior shamans who spread the Voluval even today.

I think it's highly likely that in a population of probably-trillions there are schizotypes who are not Vherokior. Do they get called shamans and slotted into the shaman role? Maybe. What's the role of a shaman in daily life? Do you want them around regularly, or do you invite them in only when you have a ritual that needs their involvement, and breathe a sigh of relief when you wave them farewell, laden with gifts and fees?

I think you could make cases for various scenarios. I think most of those cases are currently un-canonical (which tends to be a space where EVE RPers will go if there's a good story to tell), and some of them would be anti-canonical (which is where we start going "Dude, you're flying in a pod, or you biomass when you lose a ship, or we think the character is nutzo, okay?").

[Silver Night]

Can you expand a little on 'un-canonical' and 'anti-canonical'?

My understanding of what you mean is things not covered in PF (So they aren't actual canon, but might be subject to player interpretation) and things with are actually directly countered by PF (Cylons etc).

[Matariki Rain]

Can you expand a little on 'un-canonical' and 'anti-canonical'?

My understanding of what you mean is things not covered in PF (So they aren't actual canon, but might be subject to player interpretation) and things with are actually directly countered by PF (Cylons etc).

Pretty much. Happy to adopt alternative terms if they'd make things clearer.

[Silver Night]

Well, it is clearer now that there is more context. Previously I'd taken 'un-canonical' to mean essentially 'anti-canonical'.

So, it comes more to how you want the discussion framed: Are we talking about strictly things that have some kind of PF behind them, or are we having a discussion that involved things PF doesn't cover, or doesn't cover clearly?

[Matariki Rain]

We were talking about mysticism and shamans. Nicoletta suggested that PF specifically equated Vherokior shamans with being mystics, leaving open the possibility that other Matari shamans weren't. I asked if there was any PF support for non-Vherokior shamans, at the same time noting in brackets that most people I knew played that there were shamans who weren't Vherokior men, but that that seemed to be a player-made thing without grounding in PF. You opined, based on the sheer numbers involved, that there were probably non-Vherokior shamans. That puts you in the category of "Most people I know" who play that there are non-Vherokior shamans, but didn't seem to help the discussion along any. I wondered if there was something I'd missed.

[Silver Night]

Well, I appreciate you explaining, even if it didn't move the discussion along much. I'm afraid it wasn't entirely clear to me what the issue under discussion was until your explanation, so I appreciate it.

[Halete]

My take on 'non-Vherokior male shamanism'; schizotypes that operate a similar 'role' (although as pointed out it's debatable what we want that role to be) from different bloodlines. I think that the word 'shaman' when it comes to EVE roleplay is just not a very useful term in general because of semantics. It seems unlikely that only male Vherokior can be schizotyal and spiritual. And by unlikely I mean 'no'.

A new term could be helpful. For instance, if we're taking 'shaman' to mean 'keeper of the voluval' which is a bit of a stretch, then I can happily agree that, yes, that secret is kept by the Vherokior. But in that case, where does that leave spiritualists which "bridge the spiritual realm" and act as mentors in their clan (yet aren't Vhero men)?

These people will almost surely play a fairly distinctive role in their clan - exactly what they'd be doing if we're taking the literal real world meaning of 'Shaman'. As pointed out, we could infer that the word has a different meaning in New Eden. But that leaves players playing shamans who aren't 'shamans' but something else.

@Casi: There wasn't yelling! Or even fake-yelling, really. Honestly my point came down to: if you don't like spiritualism in your Roleplay, don't play it - but if you want to play a Sebiestor that actually explores their roots, still consider that a viable option. My confusion was more along the lines with you seeming to (from my position) avoid Minmatar themed roleplay in general (even on Casi) because of this fact. There are plenty of Matari who don't touch the subject IC which is a perfectly valid way of playing Minmatar. It just kind of looks like you concluded at some point that playing a Minmatar that explored Sebiestor culture would invariably mean a lot of spiritual RP, which I don't think is really necessary.

Side-note: Halete's clan consulted with a Vherokior Shaman, who also oversaw their Voluval ceremonies. By extension, being Vherokior, he himself was not a member of the clan.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Indeed, but do you have any evidence for Minmatar shamans who are not Vherokior males? If you do, I'd really like to see it.

(Most people I know play that there are shamans who aren't Vherokior men, but as far as I can tell that's non-canonical. Also, even if you have your own shamans it sounds like you need a Vherokior to handle the serum and mystical spirit guide aspects of a Voluval.)

Well, I'd have no problem with them being the only ones, but I also believe that one shouldn't RP against the huge majority of RPers. Also, PF doesn't state either that there are no non-Vherokior shamans.

If there's a unifying feature of Matari religion I see it as the pursuit of religious ecstasy. For me, this fits with both the mystical and the shamanistic angles. It's supported by the Raafa-Kon nightclubs and sacred sex (The Empyrean Age), and I'd argue also by the journey-hunger-drug divining of knowledge and the way forward (Chronicle: Methods of Torture - The Minmatar - which I believe is about Vherokior, too, given the names and the reference to the Sobaki sands). And other snippets, but my PF-enthusiasm is fading.

While religious ecstasy fits with both shamanism and mysticism, it doesn't follow from that that both are one and the same, nor that Vherokior shamans are mystics in the sense of being practitioners of mysticism. religious ecstasy is a technique that might be employed for different aims. All those snippets show, imho, that while those shamans employ techniques that (some and by far not all) practitioners of mysticism use, they use it for quite different aims than the PoM.

I'm not quite sure that we're interpreting that quotation the same way. The shamans read entrails. The psychomancers read ship sounds. (It's not the best name for it...)

Misread that. Still, my point holds tight: Those are things shamans do, not a practitioner of mysticism. The aim of mysticism isn't super-/preter-/natural knowledge of the future.

That comment does make me wonder, again, about your view of Minmatar shamans. Where does the New Age fluff come in?

in the rather generalizing use of terms like 'mystics', for example. A practice typical for New Age fluffism.

I think they are mystics, but I also don't really care what labels other people want to apply to them. If you find it uncomfortable that's no big deal to me. Just curious.

The question would then be: What do you think is a mystic?

As I said: If you mean by mystic someone who has mysterious or occultish powers, yes, the Vherokior shamans are mystics.
You're not talking about a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, then, though. To me, it seems to be confusing to call someone a mystic who has nothing to do with mysticism - thus I'd favor this second definition. A definition that doesn't apply to Vherokior shamans as far as I can see - at least not by necessity.

[Matariki Rain]

Hi Nicolette,

I think we're mostly sorted on all aspects except something that feels a bit definitional about mystics.

Earlier on in the conversation I think (but am not entirely certain) that we'd agreed that (all? most?) shamans were mystics, but not all mystics were shamans. I'm fine with that.

I think we're now having a bit of a go-over about multiple possible meanings of "mystic", ranging from "St John of the Cross" to "a term that can be used as occultish-sounding fluff to make something sound important".

I think that there's a genuine mystical strand in Matari shamanism. I think the idea of trying to transcend your own boundaries of self and experience communion with the divine is essentially mystical, whether that "divine" is an idea of monotheistic godhead or the spirit realm. (Or a stroke that takes out left-brain functioning, or Steve Jobs on acid...)

How does that fit with your take on mysticism and practitioners of mysticism?

Regards,
  Mata

[Halete]

Earlier on in the conversation I think (but am not entirely certain) that we'd agreed that (all? most?) shamans were mystics, but not all mystics were shamans. I'm fine with that.

Not just empty-quoting. Everything that Mata said sounds about right. The difference being that Shamans act as mediums and presumably oversee clan rituals (we know this much is true for the Voluval). Mystics aren't essentially mediums or figureheads, they're just seeking divine communion.

[lallara zhuul]

Just a small aside here.

Is there any gnostics in New Eden?

[Matariki Rain]

Is there any gnostics in New Eden?

I'm not intentionally arguing definitions, but since the translation and widespread distribution of the Nag Hammadi texts I think I'd have to ask what you meant by "gnostic" before I could respond. Are you thinking of a strongly dualist view, with a flawed physical world created by a fallen demiurge?

Given CCP Abraxas' choice of name, I suspect we could interpret a number of things in the EVE world as the flawed creations of a fallen demiurge, but that might be getting a bit meta.

(I could mention that Ciarente and I have both drawn on The Thunder: Perfect Mind for flavour text, but I'm not sure that's entirely relevant. )

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I think i did and still do disagree with the notion that all shamans are mystics. What I agree with is that all Vherokior shamans are, by PF, called mystics.

So, as I don't see Vherokior shamans as seeking communion with the divine, and don't see any evidence to the contrary in PF, I asked myself "Is there a sense in which they can be called >mystics<?"
My answer is: Not in the sense 'practitioner of mysticism' but in the sense 'someone doing occultish and mysterious mumbo-jumbo'.

A shaman isn't trying to transcend his own boundaries of self and experience communion with the divine. He's not becoming one with the spirit realm, he's moving within it and ties to find solutions there for practical problems while remaining himself and apart from the spirits he encounters.