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[Kala]

So, do you still visit forums that are actively thriving and growing?

Newp.

(and you have no idea how long that post was before I finally just answered the question  )

I think forums will always have a place in EVE...  But that place is likely mostly relegated to internal corps and alliance forums (+teamspeak server). 

As for forums in general  I can't really say, as apart from my teenage Highlander obsession, the only forums I've visited have been EVE ones.

[Safai]

So, do you still visit forums that are actively thriving and growing?

Backstage is the only forum I ever visit with any sort of activity aside from EVE's official forums.

A little over a decade ago (holy crap) I joined a fresh gaming and entertainment forum. Over time, I moved from being a regular user into a mod, supermod and eventually an admin for the place as we moved into our veteran years. Despite all our arguments, spiteful comments and trolling (well before it even had a name) it had turned out that they were a great group of guys and girls that had become very special and close to me. The friendships we made became much stronger than the petty arguments. I had packed my bags and taken a trip across the continent on a couple occasions just to spend some time with them, have a few drinks and make good memories.

But something I noticed as time went by was the distinct lack of newcomers to our little community. We were uncommon to promote ourselves, sure, but we were listed and plenty of guest viewers (and bots) found their way there. Yet there came a point where I looked back and realized our newest members had been around for several years with not a single newbie in sight. We weren't exactly shrinking, but we stopped growing entirely. If I were to look at that little forum from the eyes of a newcomer I can see how incredibly daunting it would be to even attempt to join our circle; our entire forum had become a clique of people who knew each other incredibly well.

Members of that community and myself still keep in touch to this day (we are talking about a 2013 meetup), and I love the heck out of all of them, but this was a situation for which we were never actually able to find a remedy. Eventually our well-kept garden faded away as we all grew into unapproachable dinosaurs and our primary means of communication turned to social media and IM.

A relevent anecdote I wanted to share, anyway.

[Misan]

I've tried to stay active on some forums outside of EVE stuff, and generally find that I wander away from them. They either have a horrible signal to noise ratio or not enough activity to justify checking often, which results in me totally forgetting to check them. I've personally moved over to blogs for most of my outside EVE reading and community stuff in my professional sphere (this might change a little with some certs I've finished recently and their internal discussion forums).

I've been doing a lot of reading and research about community building (especially WRT blogs) so I may add more detailed thoughts later. I'm personally curious about this project http://sett.com which might bridge the gap between forum and blog platforms a little.

One random guess of mine is that as forums get more mature newcomers might feel like they don't have anything meaningful to contribute once they join; instead they have to figure out how the community operates and work themselves into the circle slowly without really feeling like a part of it yet. I can't really think of a good example of a forum that avoids this problem. More thoughts later, heading out soon.

[Graanvlokkie]

I always wondered why people don't cross-post their blog posts onto Backstage in order to generate more comment on the material. I know cross-posting is often seen as something dirty to do, but I don't think it is if the goal is not to just funnel traffic back to your blog site for some reason.

I read many Eve related blogs but have never commented on any of them. Blogs, the actual pages and not the content, just are not good for creating a discussion. I have read many blog posts that have only one or two very small well thought out comments, but the same content if posted fully on Backstage (not just a link to the blog post) would generate a huge amount of discussion.

As noted by the OP, a message like the OP's would normally be a blog post, which may have only got a few small quick responses. Compare that to the (healthy?) discussion the same content has generated here.

If there was a blog section on Backstage where people were encouraged to cross-post the full content of both their IC and OOC blogs to, it would definitely get a lot comments from me.

As to the moderation discussion, I will just say that I often err on the side of caution and choose just to not comment at all, rather that upset someone or get told that I am telling people that they are doing it wrong.

EDIT TO ADD:

... One random guess of mine is that as forums get more mature newcomers might feel like they don't have anything meaningful to contribute once they join; instead they have to figure out how the community operates and work themselves into the circle slowly without really feeling like a part of it yet. I can't really think of a good example of a forum that avoids this problem. More thoughts later, heading out soon.

I think that Misan may be onto something regarding some online communities. They reach a certain size and then struggle to attract new members.

I never felt part of the Chatsubo community because I joined it very late (in 2009), and the Backstage community after the collapse of Chatsubo was for all intents and purposes the same community. I have always suffered from the "don't have anything meaningful to contribute once they join" syndrome, and all the posts that you see every so often about how players have "seen everything before" and complaints about "the same reoccurring arguments on IGS" doesn't help change my perceptions. 

[Victoria Stecker]

I never felt part of the Chatsubo community because I joined it very late (in 2009), and the Backstage community after the collapse of Chatsubo was for all intents and purposes the same community. I have always suffered from the "don't have anything meaningful to contribute once they join" syndrome, and all the posts that you see every so often about how players have "seen everything before" and complaints about "the same reoccurring arguments on IGS" doesn't help change my perceptions.

This is something I hated about the IGS for a while - the recurrence of the same arguments, etc - before I learned to enjoy it. How many of us, at one time or another, got involved in an argument over the merits of slavery? Or the respective superiority of Federation values vs. the State? And sure, some of those arguments are tired and dull if you're looking for an intellectually stimulating discussion. I've stopped reading most of the arguments, and instead started reading the characters. It's like watching them grow up or something.

"Oh, look, it's a new one! Ooh, he's a hardline conservative."
A few months later, "Hmm, his resolve seems to have taken a few blows."
A bit later, "Oh, he's finally reached moral relativism!"

It's like watching a kid take its first steps.


There is, of course, the urge to roll your eyes and say, "Oh look, this debate again," when one of those pops up. But really, what does that accomplish? Congrats, you're winning RP again by putting everyone in their place, but you're basically just being a killjoy. An RP Killjoy. There's just something wrong with that.

[Misan]

I always wondered why people don't cross-post their blog posts onto Backstage in order to generate more comment on the material. I know cross-posting is often seen as something dirty to do, but I don't think it is if the goal is not to just funnel traffic back to your blog site for some reason.

I read many Eve related blogs but have never commented on any of them. Blogs, the actual pages and not the content, just are not good for creating a discussion. I have read many blog posts that have only one or two very small well thought out comments, but the same content if posted fully on Backstage (not just a link to the blog post) would generate a huge amount of discussion.

As noted by the OP, a message like the OP's would normally be a blog post, which may have only got a few small quick responses. Compare that to the (healthy?) discussion the same content has generated here.

If there was a blog section on Backstage where people were encouraged to cross-post the full content of both their IC and OOC blogs to, it would definitely get a lot comments from me.

The main answer you already took care of yourself: it seems to be perceived as attention seeking (in a negative way). If we were all writing super srs blogs with aims at getting loads of traffic and page views then perhaps it would be attention seeking, but I doubt that's the case for most people here. So I think the perception is just generalized (incorrectly) from the larger blogging community possibly.

It's totally possible to have a vibrant commenting community on a given blog, but it does seem to be rare. I'm sure things like the anti-spam measures and other things contribute to increasing the friction involved in getting someone to actually drop a comment. I think that is why in some ways forums get more responses to most posts, as anyone who actively reads and posts here has already committed to be involved in the community on some level and they don't have to jump through hoops to actually post their thoughts (comment system logins suck) on anything.

I'd be willing to set up an experimental section for people to put their blog posts into, assuming that the discussion and comments on them remain OOC. I know that cross-posting my scouting guide was very helpful for feedback, so I'm sure it can be useful for other people to share their posts here too. My only real concern is that the sub-section will need some clear thread naming and posting rules to make content easier to find and generally keep the thing readable. If this sounds like a good idea I'll make a thread over in web dev to discuss it further.

Edit: It also needs to be very clearly differentiated from the content that gets posted in EVE Fiction and Discussion.

[Jekaterine]

I have some fond memories of Chatsubo. I came in too late to see the worst of it, and caught what turned out to be the dead cat bounce before the end. I've wondered at times about dragging some people back there for certain chats which are unlikely to fit happily here.

Go right ahead.
The place is still up as you know and I visit regularly to keep it clean of spam and bots.

[Graanvlokkie]

I have some fond memories of Chatsubo. I came in too late to see the worst of it, and caught what turned out to be the dead cat bounce before the end. I've wondered at times about dragging some people back there for certain chats which are unlikely to fit happily here.

Go right ahead.
The place is still up as you know and I visit regularly to keep it clean of spam and bots.

I have the picture in my mind now of Chatsubo being the bicycle shed at the far end of a high school campus, where boys meet to sort out their differences like men, free from the gazing eyes of any teachers.

[Gottii]

I just wanted to thank the members of the mod team here.  Its literally a thankless job, but one thats made this forum an enjoyable and useful place to visit.

Thanks guys.  Would buy you a beer if I saw you at a Fanfest.

[BloodBird]

I just wanted to thank the members of the mod team here.  Its literally a thankless job, but one thats made this forum an enjoyable and useful place to visit.

Thanks guys.  Would buy you a beer if I saw you at a Fanfest.

This, minus the buying beer part. I could however give you the money needed to buy it yourself

[Matariki Rain]

I have some fond memories of Chatsubo. I came in too late to see the worst of it, and caught what turned out to be the dead cat bounce before the end. I've wondered at times about dragging some people back there for certain chats which are unlikely to fit happily here.

Go right ahead.
The place is still up as you know and I visit regularly to keep it clean of spam and bots.

As I assume you noticed, I was reading it yesterday. (I'm stuck in bed at the moment, hence the bout of forum spam from me. Love my iPad.) Its thread on the ethics of infiltration in EVE is still my definitive coverage of the main perspectives on that topic. That thread also includes one of the best apologies for bad forum behaviour.

I have the picture in my mind now of Chatsubo being the bicycle shed at the far end of a high school campus, where boys meet to sort out their differences like men, free from the gazing eyes of any teachers.

More a case of divvying up the playground, I imagine. "Okay: high-drama zone over there, bittervets who still roleplay over there, bittervets who don't roleplay but insist anyone who does is doinitrong over there....".

Edited to add: "In good part because EVE RP is a niche interest with few adherents, and I'd like to work out the overlapping zones where we could do stuff together even though our differences in style and faction mean there are good reasons for our primary play being in separate neighbourhoods."

[Casiella]

Mata: damn you for sucking away my evening as I re-read that old thread on infiltration.

(and in case it wasn't clear, <3 and I'm not actually cursing you )

[Matariki Rain]

Mata: damn you for sucking away my evening as I re-read that old thread on infiltration.

(and in case it wasn't clear, <3 and I'm not actually cursing you )

It's a good thread. A bunch of people who disagreed passionately managed to express the things they disagreed about in ways which I still come back to when poking at the ideas of magic circles and meta-meta-gaming.

[lallara zhuul]

Just on Twitter and blogs...

I feel that they are the product of this time.

They are of the same skein as the concept of a consumer being an individual.

Whatever you do, it makes you special and because you are special then you have to be seen and heard.
And how to do it, by buying buying and buying.

It's all this American Dream bullshit with Warhols fifteen minutes of Fame for everybody.

Worst of all, it teaches you to express your innermost thoughts to complete strangers with wild abandon.
While feeling good about it.

During the Cold War the intelligence agencies would have been glad to give facebook a few bob to know what is going on within their population. (Do you think that contemporary dictatorships do not?)
Timeline would have been a perfect tool to weed out the malcontents and the people that oppose the party lines.

It's all a very much o.O to me.

Why on earth would I want someone out of arms reach know what I am thinking?

[Vikarion]

It's all a very much o.O to me.

Why on earth would I want someone out of arms reach know what I am thinking?

Well, in general, people like to communicate themselves to others, and to hear others communicate. It makes more sense if you realize that the act of communication is often an end in itself, not simply a means. And there's also the fact that - despite the occasional act of bullying or violence - most humans are fairly decent and will happily accept you into their "tribe" if you can relate to their own inner thoughts and desires.

I don't mind the increasing publication of personal thoughts, ideas, and philosophies. In history (a very general assertion here), the greatest eras of development, invention, and toleration are found in those societies where communication was least hindered, and people were most willing to communicate their ideas.

And yes, 99 out of 100 ideas suck. But those ideas tend to be discarded in the end, or improved upon, and that 1 great idea often sets mankind forward by centuries. Now, there are those who don't see more knowledge, more technology, and more intelligence as good things, but I can't count myself among them and hope that they are few in number.

As for blogs and etc making it easier to manipulate us, I rather doubt that. The greater the number of voices, and the greater the diversity of opinions, the more difficult it is to control them. Convince a person that they are the only heretic, and they will shut up. Let them know that every other person in the nation feels the same way, and the despots and tyrants will find their reigns increasingly founded on the most desperate and slippery of foundations.

As for a consumer culture, the reason we have a consumer culture is largely because humans are consumers. We always have been. We like shiny things, we like new things, and we like being special and being seen and heard. And, not only that, most of us tend to like other people getting shiny things, getting new things, and being seen and heard. It's not some complicated cultural thing - almost every human from every age in history, will prefer air-conditioning, a new computer, and a nice car to whatever circumstance you pulled them out of. Our products, our markets, and our media are conformed first and foremost to our innate desire for comfort, amusement, and sustenance, not the other way around. It's easy to show this - for example, the Catholic church has spent about 2000 years trying to make sex more of a duty than a temptation, and they've utterly failed. They failed even in the middle ages, at the height of their cultural power.

Indeed, one could argue that religions pretty much make their profession off of asking us to deny what we are in some particular, and while this doesn't necessarily call their veracity into question, one might point out that they have been spectacularly unsuccessful in the majority of cases. Given this, we could well question the capability of a corporation to, in a few advertising campaigns, manage what far more sophisticated and well-designed systems of propaganda (I use the term in the non-prejudicial form) have not. And, from what I have studied in advertising, I can't say that most corporations are trying to brainwash you - actually, most of them are simply trying to get you to remember them when you need the product they offer.