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[BloodBird]

And even if you had a second chance you can imagine the odds of getting the president seat again if your first 5 years were poorly run jokes posing as effective management. Mess up once, there will be no second try, either by law or popular opinion. Don't mess up at all - or do things very well in fact - and you may even have upped your chances to be re-elected, ala "the president did well in the first 5 years, I want to see that continue for another 5" kind of mindset.

[Silver Night]

As a quick aside, I'm not sure where the idea that the Caldari megacorps are somehow government subsidized (a la China) comes from. Who would subsidize them? They essentially make up the entire structure of the government. It's basically the other way around - the government derives its funding from the Megas, which use it as a foreign policy tool.

To the point at hand, in a government as large and varied as an interstellar federation (where on the stellar, planetary, and even sub-planetary levels local governments maintain substantial autonomy) I expect the quality of the 'democracy' would vary widely. If you want to look at 'first world' countries where democracy is substantially subverted, look at Russia, look at Italy - look at the US, where I suspect there is heavier campaign finance regulation than in the Fed and we have corporations spending unlimited money on political ads as 'speech' and we get a national politician brought up on ethics or even felony charges fairly regularly.

More specifically, though, given that the structure of the Federation seems to have substantial concessions to the rights of various members to govern themselves, you have a wildly heterogeneous system in place. I'm sure that there are places where there is more corruption, and places where there is less.

Democracy by it's nature - in a pure form - encourages the oppression of the interests of the minority to promote the interests of the majority. Obviously we don't know to what degree the Fed, or governments on more local levels, have checks in place to prevent that, but it is one of the major issues with the system - even without any kind of systemic corruption or subversion by more directly dishonest sorts. 

[orange]

+1 to Silver Night

[Silver Night]

Also, I'm moving this thread, because it doesn't really address PF, it's more of a general eve-world discussion.

[Vikarion]

I'm a US flag-waving 10-year vet conservative republican and I disagree with this:

I mean, if we REALLY want to go by RL standards here (as has been done with Federal democracy), than the Caldari State would be godawful. It's run by corporations. How many of us like corporations IRL? It's also a "dictatorship" (in-game words)...how many of us like dictatorships IRL too? But we all know that the Caldari State is not some irrational police state run by paranoid autocrats who want to keep ahold of their power. It certainly isn't free...I'm sure it's not a very nice place to live and many of us here would hate it...but that's the price you pay for being the most industrially and economically efficient faction in the EVE lore.

First off, Caldari megacorps are far more like Chinese corporations that are heavily subsidized to cover up loses in favor of gaining market share.  Gallente corporations are more like US corporations beholden to public shareholder demand for profit growth. 

I don't want to say that "your RP is wrong", and so I'm not, but in my view this isn't supported by the PF. If anything, there have been MORE reports regarding Caldari companies and their doings than those of Gallente companies, and the comparison to asian-style business practices fails to account for the fact that one of the major characteristics of such corporations is heavy involvement with and subsidization by government - something that is simply impossible with the State.

Something that's often forgotten with the Caldari is that they are socially collectivist, but economically individualist. In short, a Caldari woman or man will attempt not to rock the boat, avoid personal conflicts. and not appear overly radical in appearance or behavior. This is something that we often (probably without justification) associate with asian cultures. But when it comes to economic behavior, Caldari are fiercely competitive, and more than willing to ruthlessly bankrupt and destroy their competitors rather than come to arrangements with them. This, if it is to be characterized as anything, is a very American ideal of business behavior (a generalization, and an ideal which we have exported). It's business as war, which explains why the Megas sometimes forget to be nice and start bombing or sabotaging each other's facilities.

Now, again, to what Seriphyn said: the PF is that the Caldari have the best in living conditions in the cluster for those who fit in and work hard (a different consumer culture, perhaps?), while being the worst in the cluster for those who rebel socially or who can't hack the corporate/industrial life.

And, as Seriphyn himself has noted in times past, let's not assume that Eve is the same as real life. The Federation isn't the United States, and the Caldari corporations aren't all AIG or Big Evil Inc. Many of us would mind being employed by Dow Chemical, but would love living in or around the Googleplex. Most corporations aren't evil or good, they're just institutions designed to produce profits via the avenue of offering goods and or services.

Presuming that managers in the far technological future know as much or more than managing experts today, it stands to reason that a corporation that must invest heavily in employees as assets (as Caldari corporations must - since they run the schools, colleges, and technical schools) would be loathe to waste those assets. Such an environment would also create the cultural distaste for those who refuse to work for the corporation - just as is seen in the PF.

EDIT: Silver, didn't mean to steal your point, I hadn't read the second page when I replied.

[Publius Valerius]

I really love this Seriphyn topics..... egven his Latin thread 

Now to business.... Often we take a book a start reading it... and after the first 20 Pages we find out that... actually the description of the world how is it, is already a hypothesis. What you mean Publus? Samuel P. Huntington has it often, if not in every work; that he write down hypothesis as fact... and start from there to argue. Dont get me wrong, It has some huge pluses.... like less work... more extrem hypothesis are possible... and most of all you can get easy public attention. Which brings good book sells, and some tip on the hat from public figures (and are we not all fame whores).... only drawback is that it is all the work is most likely useless for any other scientist, because not everyone will start his work from the same (false) premise as Huntington.
So long story short - and Im lazy - who can say to me what was this time Seriphyn premise... which have to be true so that the wall of text makes sense?.... Every right anwers get some ISK when Im back (I wrote plural, because maybe a other player find some more stuff, we never know). 

Bullshit-Bingo word of today is.....drums..... whore.


Edit:I see now I qote: "Now, it might be the case that not all of us have wasted the last 3-4 years of their life researching international politics and diplomacy (unlike me)." and he wrote it in the OOC part..... why than have I always come with popper this is first semester in my case even gymnasium stuff.... and very basic... dont get me wrong...

P.S. I can list of plus which modern democracys have... from Fritz Scharpf... to M. Olson over to J. Krompardt and D. North... but never forget those are hypothesis not laws... like gossens-laws etc....

[Bastian Valoron]

OP

I'm not sure what are you talking about. If you are referring to the Summit, this is only to be expected because it's basically a place for teenager innuendo, and sometimes a couple of your IC enemies may also show up. Don't put your expectations too high if you want to delve into the intricacies of Fed politics there.

Where does it say the Federation puts unqualified people into power?  Foiritan was extremely qualified in peacetime.

hahah that made me laugh out loud....

even for a pro-gallente like me, he was skillfull in managing public opinion, not being qualified as a President.

Could you explain the joke here, I don't see what you are referring to? Foiritan was heavily promoting his own agenda while in office but I don't think this makes him unqualified, that's more like why he got the position. It does make sense for someone from CI to laugh at him IC but I wonder if it's ever even possible for this kind of question to be settled out of character?

I didn't say that he actually is unqualified, just that compared to the meritocracies of the state and republic, he looks to be unqualified. In the republic, you're an elder, with many many tattoos and accomplishments and you can very clearly look like you know what you're doing. In the State, you get into power by being the best at what you do. These two groups view what the Federation does as just a popularity contest in my mind.

It's not at all obvious why the peter principle or hereditary leadership would lead to better results than a system based on ballots and parties but I guess that's a great topic for IC discussion. In any case, the idea that any of the leaders in galactic empires of trillions of citizens is unqualified and doesn't know what he/she is doing doesn't really appeal to me, it's on the same level as an immersion killer as the idea about detonable ship material.

[Ulphus]

... just that compared to the meritocracies of the state and republic, he looks to be unqualified. In the republic, you're an elder, with many many tattoos and accomplishments and you can very clearly look like you know what you're doing.

I'm going to have to disagree that the republic is a meritocracy. As a tribal system, I strongly expect that the advancement of an individual in the corridors of power is at least partially down to who your relatives are. It might not be sufficient just to have important relatives, but I strongly expect that it is nearly necessary, and that for someone with no clan ties or important relatives to get a position of power is the exception, not the rule.

 I expect that court cases will come down to how many important people are your friends (unless what you did was so bad that your friends would lose their friends to support you), that jobs you have available go to relatives first, friends second, and unknown people only if you have no choice. Thats sort of what tribal means to me in a modern society.

After all, if the best person for the job was going to be in charge of the republic, it would still be Midular... [/tongue-in-cheek]

[Merdaneth]

The problem with corrupt governments lies usually with the paving of the road to hell.

Power corrupts, that is they key issue. And larger governments have more power, and hence more corruption. Empires the size of the EVE ones that have a large amount of executive power invested in a small amount of individuals should be largely corrupt (even if well-intended). It is the way of the beastie.

[Kiki Truzhari]

... just that compared to the meritocracies of the state and republic, he looks to be unqualified. In the republic, you're an elder, with many many tattoos and accomplishments and you can very clearly look like you know what you're doing.

I'm going to have to disagree that the republic is a meritocracy. As a tribal system, I strongly expect that the advancement of an individual in the corridors of power is at least partially down to who your relatives are. It might not be sufficient just to have important relatives, but I strongly expect that it is nearly necessary, and that for someone with no clan ties or important relatives to get a position of power is the exception, not the rule.

 I expect that court cases will come down to how many important people are your friends (unless what you did was so bad that your friends would lose their friends to support you), that jobs you have available go to relatives first, friends second, and unknown people only if you have no choice. Thats sort of what tribal means to me in a modern society.

After all, if the best person for the job was going to be in charge of the republic, it would still be Midular... [/tongue-in-cheek]

Yeah but...

okay, I feel like we have two different things being discussed here:

Thing 1: What the actual governments are actually like
Thing 2: How our characters view them

I feel like, the matari very likely view themselves as highly meritocratic, kiki does certainly, but she's a capsuleer with traceable heritage, family and clan connections, and a large network of friends and support, she doesn't see that the system might be less straightforward or positive then that. She really believes that the people who get into power are the ones who deserve it. She honestly has a good bit of privilege.

What I thought Seriphyn was debating was that our characters shouldn't view the federation in such negative light, but the fact is, to those characters, the Federation is fairly negative. They have a lot of beliefs about the way its run, that, at the end of the day, are just not true, and yes, they are in fact exaggerations or outright fabrications, but that doesn't change the fact that our characters see them like that. You seemed to be debating the OOC ethics of those factions, which I feel is almost another matter entirely. At the end of the day, I do not view the federation, or any of the ingame factions, in the same way that my character does.

[Ulphus]

What I thought Seriphyn was debating was that our characters shouldn't view the federation in such negative light, but the fact is, to those characters, the Federation is fairly negative. They have a lot of beliefs about the way its run, that, at the end of the day, are just not true, and yes, they are in fact exaggerations or outright fabrications, but that doesn't change the fact that our characters see them like that. You seemed to be debating the OOC ethics of those factions, which I feel is almost another matter entirely. At the end of the day, I do not view the federation, or any of the ingame factions, in the same way that my character does.

 The tribal societies I'm aware of a) promote their clan members over strangers whenever they get the chance, and b) don't see this as problematic in any way, it's the way things are supposed to be.

So although partially discussing it from an OOC point of view, Ulf IC is pretty relaxed about the Republic not being a meritocracy, so I'm partially reflecting my IC views too. Ulf thinks that having friends and kin powerful enough to support you into positions of power is a reasonable political system, in that it measures your political influence and abilities to get the clans to support something, rather than specific competencies. Someone who was a very competent engineer but who couldn't get people to follow them because they didn't belong to an important clan would be a terrible choice for a leader.

As to how our characters see the Federation, from Ulfs point of view, they showed up with guns to help the rebellion when we needed it. Of course they had their own reasons, it would be stupid to think otherwise, but helping us when nobody else would earns them a lot of tolerance and appreciation from my bit of Pator; and elections, affected as they are by the advertising and campaigns, are really just another measure of ability to organize support from your tribe, I mean political party, so it doesn't seem obviously terrible to me to base your choice of leader on them, if that measure of support directly translates into ability to get things done as a leader in the society using that method of choosing.

Calculating who your leader will be by a set of KPIs that have nothing to do with performing the actual job seems a bit silly.

[BloodBird]

Somehow this seemed relevant, if only because it's an explanation for how the base idea of the Fed's system works. I see, beyond the arrogant station-dwelling agent, many ways this system can work well - and not so well.   

The Voting Trail (1 of 3)

Ehh, politics, I believe. Oh, I never get tired of them. Dear, sweet politics. Oh, wait. No. I hate politics. But without politics, our great democratic and free society would collapse. It's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. And, well, the Federation has numerous laws to prevent politicians from being abusive with their politicking. Now, some dirtside political office is up for grabs after the incumbent died of a heart attack after a night at a pleasure hub. "Vice Commissioner of Waste Management for the Civic Council" or something unimportant like that. Normally, we wouldn't even bother with something this trivial. Those silly dirtside hillhuggers and their governments aren't much to look at. But one of them had to go and break some laws, and now it's our job to clean it up. You see, someone has hijacked some broadcast waves and is sending out a constant message denouncing one of the candidates. And because it's a space-based satellite doing the broadcasting, we're the ones that have to deal with it. Now, we don't know who it is that's making the broadcasts, and frankly, I don't care. As long as they're stopped, I'm happy with it. We've pinned down the offending satellite, so I want you to fly over there and blow it up. There might be some automated defenses, but it's just some mudsucker's place, so they can't be that great.    
    
Federation Politics
The Gallente Federation is a massive democracy. It is divided up into several regions, which are subdivided into districts, which are further divided into sub-districts… which make up several individual systems, each of which has one or more planetary governments, each of which further has additional subdivisions. Though every planet follows some basic rules, such as having regular elections with universal suffrage, the systems on each planet are as varied as the Gallente people.

For most observers, planetary politics in the Federation are incredibly tedious. Some, however, count the politics of the planets as the most fascinating and vital part of the democracy. There is a huge amount of bureaucracy involved, which makes it too dense for most to penetrate. But the amount of energy put forth by many individuals (who are unlikely to be remembered once their terms are finished) exemplifies the true spirit of the Federation.

[Publius Valerius]

I really love this Seriphyn topics..... egven his Latin thread 

Now to business.... Often we take a book a start reading it... and after the first 20 Pages we find out that... actually the description of the world how is it, is already a hypothesis. What you mean Publus? Samuel P. Huntington has it often, if not in every work; that he write down hypothesis as fact... and start from there to argue. Dont get me wrong, It has some huge pluses.... like less work... more extrem hypothesis are possible... and most of all you can get easy public attention. Which brings good book sells, and some tip on the hat from public figures (and are we not all fame whores).... only drawback is that it is all the work is most likely useless for any other scientist, because not everyone will start his work from the same (false) premise as Huntington.
So long story short - and Im lazy - who can say to me what was this time Seriphyn premise... which have to be true so that the wall of text makes sense?.... Every right anwers get some ISK when Im back (I wrote plural, because maybe a other player find some more stuff, we never know). 

Bullshit-Bingo word of today is.....drums..... whore.


Edit:I see now I qote: "Now, it might be the case that not all of us have wasted the last 3-4 years of their life researching international politics and diplomacy (unlike me)." and he wrote it in the OOC part..... why than have I always come with popper this is first semester in my case even gymnasium stuff.... and very basic... dont get me wrong...

P.S. I can list of plus which modern democracys have... from Fritz Scharpf... to M. Olson over to J. Krompardt and D. North... but never forget those are hypothesis not laws... like gossens-laws etc....

Come on folks.... Daddy gives a plex (when he is back.... and a big virtual hug). Anyone can answer... even Seriphyn... (seek the plex).

Edit: I know for you Seriphyn is it easier, but also it is double so hard, because it is your topic, which you have started and some heart on.... but think about the plex.. that nice plex. 

[Louella Dougans]

isn't there a mission somewhere in minmatar space, about vherokior things, that mentions how there's relatively few vherokior in senior republic positions, because they don't have any relatives there? Although the lower levels of bureaucracy are the opposite, with many vherokior.