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[lallara zhuul]

Degeneration of the OC that EVE had with the cloning being linked to the capsule is turning into this cheap knock-off of the Culture.

[hellgremlin]

Nonsense. It's a natural evolution of the technology. I can tell you that from day one after receiving the capsule from the Joves, the Caldari would've been picking it apart to figure out how it works. Soft/backup clones are the next logical step, since having cloning only tied to the capsule kinda puts you in a bind if you're outside it and get your head blown off. After that it's a few short hops to effective immortality.

[Lyn Farel]

- The capsule flash scan, no loss of memory, but only available to capsuleers as it requires... a whole capsule compatible installation.

It's the hydrostatic capsule itself that is important to this, not the sophisticated transhuman plug-ins.  you could stick anybody into the capsule, plug them into the flash scanner and breach the egg, causing the nanites to kill them and the scanner to go off.  It's just... a lot of work for something that isn't any more useful than a soft clone.  The capsule insta-clone is only valuable if you were gonna be in the capsule anyways, but the mechanics are workable for anyone.

Again, the main problem with flash-scans outside the pod was that the scanner sucked at telling when people were actually dead, and would flash too late or too early.  The pod breach nanite trigger is a work-around, one that recovered Sleeper tech has made unnecessary.  Of course, for capsuleers, it ain't broke, so why fix it?

Yes, but as Morlag said capsuleers are still using a crappy tech compared to dusties. This was all my point, really.

[Graelyn]

Guys, the usages of the tech are completely different.

We capsuleers can use our minds to pilot flying weapons of mass destruction, to do the work that command crews needed tens or hundreds to do.

DUSTers can move their arms and legs. A DUSTer cannot fly a ship.

The cloning aspect of the pod is only a fraction of what that equipment actually does.

[Ghost Hunter]

Guys, the usages of the tech are completely different.

We capsuleers can use our minds to pilot flying weapons of mass destruction, to do the work that command crews needed tens or hundreds to do.

DUSTers can move their arms and legs. A DUSTer cannot fly a ship.

The cloning aspect of the pod is only a fraction of what that equipment actually does.

This.

What makes the DUST cloning tech so amazing is that its a single implant that can clone a battlefield soldier, a relatively simple line up.

The Capsule is a massive technological interfacing device that replaces the entire command crew, and portions of other crew, on a starship. The Capsuleer becomes the starship, in essence. Capsuleer cloning was just slapped on to an already amazing gimmick.

A DUST Soldier cannot do what a Capsuleer can do, they both just have this convenient cloning procedure.

[Esna Pitoojee]

So, I was watching the trailer again, and in response to a similar comment (that the DUST tech was a rehash/breaking of the existing capsuleer tech), someone responded with an interesting point:

To summarize, they said that one disadvantage that DUSTies will have vs. capsuleers is that while a capsuleer, while licensed, can purchase as many clones as he has the funds for and thus theoretically go on forever with no outside interactivity, the DUSTies will be entirely and completely reliant on their patrons - capsuleers, primarily, but the various nations for NPCs - for the acquisition of new clones.

To be clear, I am not at all sure this is actual PF. In terms of game mechanics design, this brings up some serious issues - will people be able to purchase clones from NPCs, and the handwavium applied to say that the NPCs are actually doing it? - but if it is accurate, then it sets a fairly serious limit in place for the DUSTies: They're only as immortal as their patrons care to make them.

Given the utter chaos the unfettered capsuleers have unleashed on the cluster, that'd seem to me to be damn good policy from an IC perspective for keeping the DUSTies in line.

[Gottii]

DUSTies require massive expenditures in tech and money to function, train, and deploy.  You're right, without the person footing the bill, they're just soldiers you can kill with a switch. 

Which is very EVE.

[BloodBird]

I look forward to the day some arrogant, naive duster tries to RP that he's more badass and ever-lasting than my toon. Then I'll smack him down with the cold, hard, amusing fact of just how hilariously irrelevant and temporary he is. Compared to a Capsuleer, a duster is nothing but a convenient trooper you don't need to re-train or replace over and over.

Makes you realize having a duster crew for your ships should be the next step for capsuleers - you only ever need to hire one per active ship. Lose the ship, and you only have to acquire and assemble a new one then get your freshly cloned crew on-board and back into the action.

[Gottii]

The question that needs to be asked is "how will Dusties affect the Marysue community of EVE?", since, well, the biggest baddest super-soldiers in the galaxy will no longer be capsuleers.  Capsuleers will still be the VIPs, the masterminds, and the all-powerful and immortal gods of death floating in a black sky, but not the baddest dirt-side commandos in the galaxy.  This will upset some characters.

(Im kidding....kinda)

[lallara zhuul]

The price of the DUST implantation is the key for the viability of the whole technology.

Each and every clone will need it, if you want them to have the option of respawning (yes, cloning is just a PF way of explaining a game mechanic.)

One problem that comes into mind is the fact that in New Eden life is cheap.

The zombiebitchqueen bleating about cost of life to her subjects in a war that she herself approves of, is very un-EVE.

If the implant costs more than... say a Kameiras, it is not cost effective and would not be implemented by any empire.

It's just... pfffft.

[Faraelle Brightman]

Sarum (and all the other faction heads) are all politicians in the end...they have to say that the cost of war matters. If they actually believed the war was bad enough to end at any cost, they could start with peace negotiations.  Promising the end of a war while simultaneously introducing the game-changing battlefield tech they expect to end it with is a rather different promise. The last time that tactic worked in RL was Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it ended with the US military occupying Japan for several years. It may indeed have saved more lives than it took if the what-if calculations of the battle planners were correct, but it's not a fun prospect for the loser.

[Robert Kauliford]

In terms of cost think about how much it costs to train a soldier and keep him at combat readiness then all it takes is one lucky guy on the other side and that training is lost. Then along comes cloning tech and you can just flash imprint all that training with minimal risk of it being lost.

[Lyn Farel]

Guys, the usages of the tech are completely different.

We capsuleers can use our minds to pilot flying weapons of mass destruction, to do the work that command crews needed tens or hundreds to do.

DUSTers can move their arms and legs. A DUSTer cannot fly a ship.

The cloning aspect of the pod is only a fraction of what that equipment actually does.

Yes, and what prevents me to use their fabulous cloning implants ? I am a capsuleer and rich enough to get one. Unless their access is restricted in some kind of way ?

Need PF info on this.

[lallara zhuul]

Using the market details of Kameiras and comparing them to the prices of the clones would be an interesting exercise.

The problem is that the spacebound market prices do not have real correlation with the economies of the planets, therefore making that comparison as an indication of the real resources used in training/clone production unreliable.

But it does give some vague indication... average price of a sold Kameiras is 4.5mil while with that amount of ISK you can get quite a good clone nowadays. Of course a few years back it would have bought you a much shittier one, but that is nature of SOTA. The prices come down.

[Lyn Farel]

Isnt that a little weird to compare the price of a Kameira on the capsuleer market ? We do not really know how much it costs for baseliners... The capsuleer market tends to twists every price scales.