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[Creedance Talor]

I have asked myself this multiple times so far how the achurans fit into the state. The lore is non exsistant , there was the written snippet about how achuran act but how come they became part of the state, but can remain so introvert concerning their society and culture.

I personally thing the Caldari came across the Achuran during their secret colonisation of The current Caldari Regions and that the Achurans helped them establish themselves a bit easier with a local supplier. Since Sasio is in the middle of The Forge.

Achurans being so orderly could have been a factor that they do fit into the militaristic nature of the Caldari but beyond that they do not seem as open concerning the everybody for the Corporation.

Any other toughts of how the Achuran came to be part of the state?

[Horatius Caul]

I would think it's more about them having a dislike towards the Federation in common.

[Raze Valadeus]

The Archura are highly intelligent as a race and tend to be scientists and engineers (from what I've read). Their extreme focus and dedication to the tasks before them, as well as their cunning resourcefulness and understanding of business and science makes them fit right in with the principles and society of the State.

[Seriphyn]

I do think it is somewhat of a bizarre fit. Here is the Apocrypha showinfo description for Achurans...

Achura has been part of the Caldari State for three centuries, and yet their culture has always remained something of a mystery. Originally from the Saisio System, they are reclusive and introverted, and show little interest in the ephemeral phenomena of the material world. Intensely spiritual, Achur pilots have only recently taken to the stars, driven in large part by a desire to unlock the secrets of the universe.

Pre-Apocrypha showinfo description...

Achura has been part of the Caldari State for three centuries, joining and leaving the Federation at the same time as the State. Yet the Achur have always remained a mystery to others. Hailing from the inhospitable Saisio system in The Forge, the Achur are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be while still participating in galactic affairs. Intensely spiritual, the average Achur has little interest in the material world's transitory doodads. Achur pilots have been few and far between in the past, but the recent sacrilege of their home world prompted them to take to the skies in greater numbers.

Highlighted two important elements that were removed and/or retconned (CCP's Caldari babies capable of such an evil act as sacrilege of a homeworld? Never!).

But yes, to me, it makes little sense. The Caldari are militaristic, ruthless and hypercapitalistic. Do your job, or fall into nothingness. How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them? The Achur have more in common with the Intaki than the Caldari. To me, it was a horrible Asian cop-out by CCP, and I think they may have regretted the implementation of the Achura. The only time they have ever been mentioned in a chronicle is Chasing Shadows, and never in a single news item. The fact they've never released a single piece of info on them that details this connection makes me think CCP is going "Er, Achura? Oh yeah...them"

As for being cunningly resourceful, having an understanding of business/science/engineering, they could easily fit in with the Federation, too. The key difference is the hypermilitaristic nature of the Caldari State, something that the Achur have absolutely no shared values with.

[orange]

Any other toughts of how the Achuran came to be part of the state?

Proto-SuVee settled in their system prior to the existence of the Federation?

The pre-State Achura may have been content to watch the blinking of the stars in Saisio and was not greatly involved in the Gallente-Caldari War.  At the peace treaty, the system was designated a State system because 1) SuVee had made their HQ there and 2) it was surrounded by other Caldari systems.  The Achura may not have even been present or cared and were content to continue their existence on their one world.

Then something happened, some sacrilege occurred. We do not know what or who did it.  Maybe it was SuVee that finally decided to setup shop on the "virgin" world.  Maybe Guristas/Jove/Competitor/etc made an attack on a holy site and took something of great value to the Achurans.  In any case the Achurans decided that in order to prevent future sacrileges, protect their home, or get back what was taken they must take to the skies.

I think the above is as reasonable as any explanation and may explain why CCP removed the content Seriphyn highlighted - it does not matter to the average player.

[Hamish Grayson]

Highlighted two important elements that were removed and/or retconned (CCP's Caldari babies capable of such an evil act as sacrilege of a homeworld? Never!).

I admit that my recollection of those events are hazy, but I seem to recall that it was the blood raiders or somebody who committed the sacrilege.   

[Vieve]

But yes, to me, it makes little sense. The Caldari are militaristic, ruthless and hypercapitalistic. Do your job, or fall into nothingness. How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them?

Seri, please making me bite my tongue in RL.   Wikipedia.  Entry for bushido.  Please read it.*

Look at the progression of how the Japanese interpreted bushido throughout their history. Imagine how the folks tasked with including more Asians in this game in a hurry might have tweaked and respun it for the far future survivors of a Civilization Reboot grade disaster.  Why in the heck are there so many Monks on Saisio anyway?  Could the Amarr possibly be not alone in being the descendants of the folks involved in a religious movement?  Were the proto-Achurans the religious enemies of the proto-Amarr?   Is this written down somewhere in Blood Raider history?

* This is not an invitation to argue with me about how the definition in Wikipedia is all wrong.   I didn't write the thing, and while I enjoy sushi and took enough Japanese in college to be able to find a bathroom in Narita, I don't have a degree in Asian Studies or an anime obsession.

[Seriphyn]

I admit that my recollection of those events are hazy, but I seem to recall that it was the blood raiders or somebody who committed the sacrilege.

Oh, now that's interesting if true...something to do with that "Rod of Creator" thing? There's some mission about some Achuran protests that the State want to deal with that I was doing on Kiam, I think I'll dig it up Soon™.

Also, I'm not sure why CCP didn't make Fuukiuye or Oryioni bloodlines the third bloodline for the Caldari, really. To me, the Caldari are intense patriots focused around their own culture and nation, ie. a lot of nationalism around Caldari Prime. How do the Achurans feel about being apart of the State that celebrated the return of the homeworld, a homeworld that is not theirs or has anything to do with them? That's what makes me go "eh" about the Achurans, as they appear like "hanger-ons".

Does anyone know any RL analogies that could be used? Of a monocultural/monoethnic society (like Japan) that has a very small minority of a very different culture (mileage may vary on that culture bit). Perhaps the US and Native Americans is an example of a comparison?

And yes, perhaps the Achurans fill in with traditional Caldari practices of ancestor worship and practices, as opposed to the modern hypercapitalistic militarism.

[Kohiko Sun]

Then something happened, some sacrilege occurred. We do not know what or who did it.  Maybe it was SuVee that finally decided to setup shop on the "virgin" world.  Maybe Guristas/Jove/Competitor/etc made an attack on a holy site and took something of great value to the Achurans.  In any case the Achurans decided that in order to prevent future sacrileges, protect their home, or get back what was taken they must take to the skies.

Unless it has been retconned, the Rod of the Creator was stolen from Achura, which is why the (NPC) Celestial Imperative was created by the temples and Achur officers from the Caldari Navy: to find it themselves.

The Caldari are militaristic, ruthless and hypercapitalistic. Do your job, or fall into nothingness. How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them?

Intensely spiritual does not necessarily mean nice or pacifistic (hello, Amarr). The Ceremonial Brush is a disturbing example.

The White Songs were originally important to Achur because they were a symbol of the Imperial line of the Achuran Empire that, I think, evolved into a symbol of all of Achura after the Empire ended - they're still held in deep reverence. That makes me think the Achur seemed to have a similar planetary empire to the ethnic Caldari's Raata on Caldari Prime.

When they met, there's a very good chance both sides saw a bit of themselves in each other and decided to work together instead of the typical violence that happens when anything called an empire meets another group. (Of course, the Raata was over and done by then, and I don't know if the Achuran Empire ended before or after meeting the Caldari.) Or, the Stargazers (Hi!) could have simply agreed that their future lied with these people from the stars. And, the Caldari by that time had experience with peaceful first contacts with other worlds as a partner with the Gallente in the Federation's explorations.

When the Caldari fled to create the modern State, the Achur - who were already conveniently living in The Forge - probably had little trouble deciding to help/join their 'proper' cousins that they met first instead staying with the wildly chaotic Federation that they'd had less contact with. (That also depends on if the Achur actually did join the Federation or not.  )


***********
My question has always been a whining, "Why SuVee?" Have they been bedazzled with shiny doodads enough to happily let themselves, as a whole, be used as a marketing tool?

[Kohiko Sun]

Does anyone know any RL analogies that could be used? Of a monocultural/monoethnic society (like Japan) that has a very small minority of a very different culture (mileage may vary on that culture bit). Perhaps the US and Native Americans is an example of a comparison?

You could still use Japan. It's not quite as 'mono' as many believe with Ainu, Okinawans, and Koreans, even during the famous centuries of isolationism.

[Hamish Grayson]

How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them? The Achur have more in common with the Intaki than the Caldari.

You seem to be forgetting about the Cold Wind, Wind-from-the-West, Starsmith, and Maker deities.  I can't find any references to the Maker atm, and they may have all been retconned out but they were there and are not the same as the "Tea Maker,"  position that also has religious significance to the Caldari.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-04-06

Several Caldari mystics have claimed that Tenal is the place that one should travel to in order to come face to face with the Starsmith, although whether this is in reference to the view into space from its outermost systems or the likely outcome of trying to negotiate the dangers of the route has never been made clear

Smith's make steel, and apparently this one makes the stars.  Take a look at most of the Caldari logos,the tend to include steel, stars or steel stars.  A few examples:



BTW, the Intaki also get along smashingly with the Caldari.

[Hamish Grayson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

Animism encompasses the beliefs that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) worlds, and souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in all other animals, plants, rocks, natural phenomena such as thunder, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment

I.E the wind.

Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology. Animism is particularly widely found in the religions of indigenous peoples,[5] perhaps most interestingly in Shinto and Sererism, and some forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, Pantheism, Christianity and Neopaganism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

Shinto or Shintoism is the indigenous spirituality of Japan and the Japanese people. It is a set of practices, to be carried out diligently, to establish a connection between present day Japan and its ancient past.  Kami are defined in English as "spirits", "essences" or "deities", that are associated with many understood formats; in some cases being human-like, in others being animistic, and others being associated with more abstract "natural" forces in the world (mountains, rivers, lightning, wind, waves, trees, rocks).  The vast majority of Japanese people who take part in Shinto rituals also practice Buddhist ancestor worship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengu

Tengu are a class of supernatural creatures found in Japanese folklore, art, theater, and literature. They are one of the best known yōkai (monster-spirits) and are sometimes worshipped as Shinto kami (revered spirits or gods).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune

Kitsune is the Japanese word for fox. Foxes are a common subject of Japanese folklore; in English, kitsune refers to them in this context. Stories depict them as intelligent beings and as possessing magical abilities that increase with their age and wisdom. Foremost among these is the ability to assume human form. While some folktales speak of kitsune employing this ability to trick others—as foxes in folklore often do—other stories portray them as faithful guardians, friends, lovers, and wives.

Even before the introduction of the Cold Wind chronicle, the Tengu or the Kitsune it was often suggested by this community that the Caldari practiced some form of Animism based on their ship names which are almost all named for animals.

[Hamish Grayson]

The fact that the Federation was violently suppressing the Jen-Mei succession movement, arresting and exiling the Intaki heads of state and military for attempting to succeed and bombing Caldari Prime during that time frame...probably gave the Achurians the opinion that the Gallenteans just might be the cluster's most dangerous imperialistic conquerors. 

The strong sense of racial supremacy in the ethnic Gallentean working class was likely even more pronounced in that era and would have a role in their choice I think.   Their options were to be conquered by the Gallenteans or
side with the Caldari who would pretty much leave them alone.

My question has always been a whining, "Why SuVee?" Have they been bedazzled with shiny doodads enough to happily let themselves, as a whole, be used as a marketing tool?

Why assume that SuVee, which has an oldly different take on corporate ethics than the rest of the state, would have had more of an affect on the Achurians than the other way around?    It's likely that Saiso is one of the largest planet bound populations within the State and the Achurians are known to be driven and intelligent.   Why wouldn't they hold most of the executive positions with the megacorp who's HQ is in their home system?

[Seriphyn]

The fact that the Federation was violently suppressing the Jen-Mei succession movement

Actually, this was all my own fiction-writing, and has no mention in PF ever. Even then, it was mostly peacekeeping and no violent suppression. Hehe...

arresting and exiling the Intaki heads of state and military for attempting to succeed and bombing Caldari Prime during that time frame

Yes, all five thousand of them, out of many billions.

The strong sense of racial supremacy in the ethnic Gallentean working class was likely even more pronounced in that era and would have a role in their choice I think.   Their options were to be conquered by the Gallenteans or side with the Caldari who would pretty much leave them alone.

Yes, there is an idea that there is a distinction to be made between the "Old" and "New" Federation, the latter of which is more about political correctness than indulgent imperialism. Given that the Achur were close to/within the Caldari secret colonies, it would have been far easier for the Achur to break off than the Intaki and Mannar, who were located within Federation holdings. I would not be surprised if this was the case.

However, in the modern Federation, a portion of this "ethnic Gallente" are now (allegedly) descended from immigrants. The dichotomy of "us and them" seems to have broken down over time, and now it is the case of "the Federation and its subjects" as opposed to "the Gallente and its subjects". The last President was Intaki, after all, and given an extremely large Intaki influence on the bureaucracy and diplomacy, it now appears that the Federation is the sum of its parts, a large non-ethnic mass that absorbs smaller entities. It would be ironic that any permutation against the Intaki subculture has been the responsibility of other Intaki, and also insidious in this regard, given the Federation has this ability to assimilate. But yeah, it very much appears the Federation has evolved from merely being an arm of the Luminaire Gallenteans.

Also, very very nice stuff regarding the star and steel motifs amongst the Caldari.

[Kohiko Sun]

I could see the Starsmith as possibly a bit of cross-pollination of the Achur into the wider Caldari pantheon. They seem to have the more celestial view of things - Stargazers, Inventors 'plucking ideas from the universe', the Celestial Imperative, and such.


Another thing I've been curious about was hak'len, and if Achur can survive it. "Caldari" can drink it; Achur are technically still referred to as "Caldari", even though they're not from Caldari Prime. I've always played like Ko could (at the very least, handwaving that Achur may have developed an immunity over the centuries), but I've always been worried about urdoinitrong.

Why assume that SuVee, which has an oldly different take on corporate ethics than the rest of the state, would have had more of an affect on the Achurians than the other way around?

Oh, no. I'm sure both have colored each other; after all, Achur are all throughout SuVee and its subsidiaries. And, it's quite sly. (I'll avoid comparing it to something like Korean Airlines using the stereotype of the smiling, submissive Asian woman pampering businessmen as the center of its marketing campaign IRL, which makes me rant.) But, it seems so at odds with the disinterest in 'transitory doodads' - mostly when thinking of something like Expert Distribution being the State's Wal-Mart or Tesco.

Of course, the part that makes it sly is that their disinterest doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't take advantage of everyone else's interest while presenting a happy and totally nonthreatening face.

I'd have preferred to see them more closely tied to Ishukone's scientific side, but that's admittedly just me fangirling over my two favorite bits of the State.