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the 25ers were a political activist organization that fought for repealing starship licensing fees, laying the foundations for the independent capsuleer community.

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Author Topic: End of the NASA Space Shuttle  (Read 7671 times)

Ken

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #30 on: 18 Jul 2011, 04:57 »

a proper, intelligent, modern solution.

I contend that there already is such a solution.  :)

Quote
SpaceX offers open and fixed pricing that is the same for all customers, including a best price guarantee. Modest discounts are available for contractually committed, multi-launch purchases. A half bay flight of Falcon 9 is available to accommodate customers with payloads in between Falcon 1 and 9.

Price*    $54M - $59.5M

In the Washington, D.C. area you can actual hear ads on the radio to the effect of "Do you or your organization need to get a payload to geosynchronous orbit?  Call us!"
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Horatius Caul

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #31 on: 18 Jul 2011, 06:03 »

Yeah, private space companies will be able to make a lot more progress than the space agencies in that field, I believe. In a way, the NASA shuttle had become too big to fail, and that has prevented the development of smarter solutions like we'll start to see now with the behemoth gone.

Bataav

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #32 on: 18 Jul 2011, 06:08 »

A massive incentive for the US to pursue manned spaceflight in the very early days was because the Soviets were trying. With this in mind I wonder whether China's ambitions for a lunar base might nudge them back into activity if it becomes a realistic prospect.

But should we all be looking to the US? It's an easy target with it's epic military budget but the same can probably be said for the EU, etc.

Private enterprise is likely to make great inroads here too. Already Virgin Galactic are pioneering space tourism and NASA sold a couple of seats on the shuttle for $$$.

This is the kind of thing I almost expect the multi billionaires to be investing in just like Branson is doing. I'd have thought there'd be a Gates-led project out there somewhere (I hope it's not MS working on a launch vehicle's OS... I wouldn't want to be that astronaut waiting for liftoff while mission control's big screen suddenly changes from technical data and live cam feeds to a paperclip saying "It looks like your trying to launch a rocket...")

Space is unfathomably huge. While states like the US, the EU and others can lead the way and provide amazing examples of inspiration I don't think the responsibility to push boundaries lies solely at their feet.
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orange

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #33 on: 18 Jul 2011, 07:37 »

SpaceX financial discussion
Quote
The total company expenditures since being founded in 2002 through the 2010 fiscal year were less than $800 million, which includes all the development costs for the Falcon 1, Falcon 9 and Dragon. Included in this $800 million are the costs of building launch sites at Vandenberg, Cape Canaveral and Kwajalein, as well as the corporate manufacturing facility that can support up to 12 Falcon 9 and Dragon missions per year. This total also includes the cost of five flights of Falcon 1, two flights of Falcon 9, and one up and back flight of Dragon.

This means that for less than the cost of a single Shuttle mission, SpaceX is within reach of Gemini+ and is setting its eyes on Apollo-light in the next few years.

This is the kind of thing I almost expect the multi billionaires to be investing in just like Branson is doing. I'd have thought there'd be a Gates-led project out there somewhere

SpaceX - Elon Musk, money made from selling PayPal and other companies.
Armadillo Aerospace -  John D. Carmack, money made from id Software (Doom, Quake, Cmdr Keen).
Blue Origin -  Jeff Bezos, money made from owning Amazon.com
Bigelow Aerospace - Robert Bigelow, money made from owning Budget Suites of America

Also note that MS co-founder helped fund SpaceShipOne upon which VG's SpaceShipTwo's are based.
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orange

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #34 on: 21 Jul 2011, 06:44 »

Mission is complete; the Space Shuttle Atlantis has returned to the Earth.
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Ken

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #35 on: 21 Jul 2011, 16:24 »


Quote
The space shuttle Atlantis, appearing like a bean sprout against clouds and city lights, on its way home, as photographed by the Expedition 28 crew of the International Space Station on Thursday, July 21. Airglow over Earth can be seen in the background.
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Wanoah

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #36 on: 27 Jul 2011, 16:56 »



This is what it was supposed to be.

By the time I was born, we'd already been to the moon, of course. The Shuttle was an exciting feature of my childhood. The logical next step, it seemed. This was Man's destiny. It was supposed to be the stepping off point for our continuing adventures in space. It was supposed to be the precursor for our Plan B. It was supposed to be the beginning of the end of the 'all our eggs in one basket' problem.

It all seemed within touching distance.

After all, we'd already achieved so much. By the time I grew to adulthood, we would have massive orbital stations where people lived and worked. Space travel would be commonplace, at least in a limited sense. We would be colonising Earth's orbit and the Moon, for sure, and we would be using these places as the stepping stone for greater human exploration of our solar system and beyond. I was going to be an astronaut, of course. What else would I be doing?

Maybe, just maybe, we'd find another planet somewhere that we could live on.

What did we get? A floating lab and a bunch of satellites so we could pay Rupert fucking Murdoch money to watch football and have a bossy woman in a box order us around in our cars.

We have fallen far short of our potential. But hey, at least a few rich guys got richer.

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Lyn Farel

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #37 on: 28 Jul 2011, 03:21 »

If only that potential was at least used to fight against problems like global warming and all that scaring shit, i would understand.  :bash:
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Wanoah

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #38 on: 28 Jul 2011, 12:24 »

If only that potential was at least used to fight against problems like global warming and all that scaring shit, i would understand.  :bash:

Well, yeah. It's a bit late for any of that now, though. Maybe it was always too late? We should have been acting years ago. Now, while a bunch of people are still swearing that global warming isn't happening, that the world is flat and the universe is 6000 years old, we should be taking action to save what we can from the inevitable wreckage. Instead, we are wasting time and energy arguing with idiots, many of whom are in positions of power.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #39 on: 28 Jul 2011, 12:28 »

Prepare for the oncoming ice age.

Buy canned food and wool socks.
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Mizhara

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #40 on: 28 Jul 2011, 15:19 »

Or just move to northern Norway and acclimatize. Once the ice age sets in, the area will be too inhospitable to live in, but when migrating south (raiding and pillaging on the way) you should be prepared for the climate.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #41 on: 28 Jul 2011, 15:22 »

... when migrating south (raiding and pillaging on the way) ...

Only on Tuesdays, right?
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Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

orange

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #42 on: 28 Jul 2011, 19:47 »



This is what it was supposed to be.

... we would have massive orbital stations where people lived and worked. Space travel would be commonplace, at least in a limited sense. We would be colonising Earth's orbit and the Moon, for sure, and we would be using these places as the stepping stone for greater human exploration of our solar system and beyond.

...

What did we get? A floating lab and a bunch of satellites so we could pay Rupert Murdoch money to watch football and have a bossy woman in a box order us around in our cars.

We have fallen far short of our potential. But hey, at least a few rich guys got richer.

A floating lab/assembly point is the critical first step and part of the station pictured above would be a floating lab and assembly point. 

The Direct-to-Home data market (Television) has by far the largest Revenue of any space venture - $72.22 Billion.  I will come back to this in a moment.   ;)

As for the "bossy woman in a box" - the Global Positioning System (GPS) is incredibly integrated into all of our lives and paid for by only US taxpayers.  The cost of your terminal is solely the cost of the terminal and profit that TomTom, Garmin, etc make.  Automatic Teller Machines, digital gas pumps (the ones that take your credit card), power substations, and various other high-precision timing applications utilize the GPS constellation for timing.  When initially established the US military had a means to turn GPS off.  The international economic ramifications of such an act now make this impossible. 

So, what happened?  Why haven't we colonized Earth orbit and put an outpost or two on Mars and had a manned mission to orbit Jupiter?

The digital computing revolution happened.  The technological means by which we are currently communicating makes the need to have humans on-orbit, on the Moon, or anywhere else more difficult to "sell."

The Apple II had more computing power than the Apollo spacecraft that took men to the Moon.  We went from having fairly simple analog computer systems in the late 1960s to having microcontrollers and microprocessors in the 1970s. 

But in the late 1960s the discussion of man vs machine/electronics was already being waged.  The USAF Manned Orbiting Laboratory was a USAF program to put a manned observation post in orbit.  This would allow for high-resolution imagery to be taken from orbit, analyzed by the on-station personnel, who would then report via radio or some other low-bandwidth medium what they saw in the photos.  As a comparison the systems in use would take pictures on film over a period of time and return those to the Earth via a re-entry capsule.  These re-entry capsules had to be caught upon re-entry or recovered from the ocean floor.  The manned system would provide more rapid analysis of the images and allow for more timely action.  8)

But in parallel, unmanned systems were being advanced and digital photography was being developed.  It was the only way to get pictures of Mars, Jupiter, etc on the probes.  It also enabled the intelligence community to develop spacecraft that did not need a man-in-the-loop in order to gather timely intelligence.  Eventually this technology found its way into consumers hands - digital cameras.  :eek:

All the above is a short way of saying the same electronics whose development was advanced by space exploration and applications resulted in a reduced need for human beings in space.   :cry:

And back to the Direct-to-Home television satellites on orbit.  These companies are in the business of making money and they would rather offer their consumers (at a higher price point) an astronomical number of channels (most of which are never watched) at a cosmic resolution and refresh rate (something most people will not even notice).  This means more satellites, preferably staying on-orbit longer.  :idea:

A big limiter to a satellites useful life is how much fuel it has on-board.  Even the first series of perturbations in Earth orbit require a measure of orbital maintenance and thus the expenditure of fuel.  In addition, sometimes components fail and reduce the spacecrafts capability, but it is a single unit or two.  Lastly, orbital debris threatens the continuing operations of these spacecraft in a very real way.  A single bolt on a crossing orbit could destroy the spacecraft's ability to transmit the football game (whether it is an American in Dallas watching ManU in Manchester or a Britain in Manchester watching the Cowboys in Dallas) and threaten other spacecraft.  :twisted:

Automated spacecraft fueling is already being pursued, but it is the next two were I think we begin to see the opportunity for direct human presence in Earth orbit in order to make money from the space environment.  In order to protect their assets, these companies may pay good money.  Whatever the task is, it must be a very complex task where telecommunications lag could result in mission failure.  ;)

If we develop FTL communications prior to a significant human presence beyond the Earth, we may never grow beyond it.   :(

And that is the real struggle - what product does an orbiting city provide to the Earth?  Answering that simple question makes the future so close, but so far away happen.  The technology exist and has for decades, it is a lack of will and/or need.
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Mithfindel

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #43 on: 01 Aug 2011, 13:22 »

And that is the real struggle - what product does an orbiting city provide to the Earth?  Answering that simple question makes the future so close, but so far away happen.  The technology exist and has for decades, it is a lack of will and/or need.
In essence, that'd require a consumer or military application where some of the components must be manufactured in zero-G (grown crystals or something like that).

[spoiler="About new European space exploration"]As a (not-so-)brief comment on non-commercial space research in Europe: It'll need backing from a nation-state. ESA will work fine if it's backed by billions from France, Germany and UK (and pennies from a host of other nations). Alone, no European nation does possess the money to blow off into something that doesn't provide immediate returns, such as manned missions to deep space. If NASA needs to wrestle with the Congress, ESA depends on a good number of independent parliaments, most of which will be quite happy to get extra populist points from the voters by axing unnecessary costs. Example: Galileo "is a stupid idea that primarily serves French interests" (according to a German CEO working in the industry). That's 20 billion euros that could be fed to somewhere else. I doubt developing a manned spacecraft is anywhere that cheap. If a major supporter withdraws their billions, you'd possibly see the whole program fail on the drawing board. As such, the only way ESA could hope to develop a manned spacecraft would be to buy old plans from NASA/Roskosmos and modernize the design. (Admitted, I'm not working in that industry, but I assume that my pessimism is warranted - and as such, in the near future men will travel into space on board vessels built in the private sector, China, India or Russia.)[/spoiler]
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Borza

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Re: End of the NASA Space Shuttle
« Reply #44 on: 01 Aug 2011, 15:25 »

The shuttle had some great achievements, but it was an unreliable craft.

May the next generation not cost so many lives.
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