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The last time someone attacked the Jovians, it was the Amarr, at Vak'atioth, and the Amarr fleet was crushed?

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Author Topic: Ground warfare in FW  (Read 2701 times)

Seriphyn

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Ground warfare in FW
« on: 05 May 2011, 15:00 »

So, as we saw in the other thread revealing www.dust514.com, there is a quote...

Quote
"Since the breakout of the Empyrean War, planetary engagements between the empires escalated by orders of magnitude. In YC 111 alone, the Gallente Federation's spending on ground technologies rose 273%"

- Gen. Jenoth Flym (Ret.) Excerpt from "Federal Defence Readiness Committee Report

I have always suspected there was ground combat between the empires in FW, but on a small scale, but never had much to back me up. Within the fiction department, perhaps they never had a consolidated opinion, so it wasn't brough up. Chronicles like "For the State" detail a minor conflict on an asteroid, while "And to Live in Peace" has a Gallentean PMC outfit go hunt down some war hero/criminal.

There is, however, this, which mentions three Amarr regiments serving as "ground support" for the 24IC fleets.

What do people think? Does make FW seem less wishy-washy, relying on the soccer teams etc and more war-like, which I am in favour of.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #1 on: 05 May 2011, 16:34 »

If nothing mechanicswise changes in the terms of the 'game' of FW.

Then I doubt the view of it will change.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #2 on: 05 May 2011, 16:42 »

If anything, this makes it makes it possibly more walbangerish.

Let's assume for a moment that you don't want to just nuke/bomb/kinetic strike a planet into oblivion, because you for some particular reason actually want to land on it.

Now lets assume you maintain utter "space superiority" around the planet. (Presumably this is the purpose of complexe capturing.) Spreading ship patrols all over close-orbit of the planet isn't an option; a planet's far to large to do that without expending hideous amounts of resources. Considering the engagement range EVE starship battles seem to take in, covering the entire planet in anything (even drones or automated turrets) would be an excersize in grandoise, self-sabotaging futility. What that leaves us with is the option of deploying long range-probes across the planet, constantly watching them for any results, and scrambling warships to intercept any craft that approach the planet. Another variation on this would be to analyze the planet's terrain to discover good landing approaches, then more densely cover these areas in ship patrols. Even with these approaches, the prevalence of cloaking technology in EVE along with the adaptability of the warp drive means that hostile blockade runners or other small, fast ships could warp into low orbit, deploy orbitally dropped resupply pods (along with a suitable number of decoys and E-warfare pods to confuse any surface-to-air defenses) and then floor it out of there in a matter of seconds - in all likelyhood before your patrols could nail them down.

Now that we've (only moderately effectively) blockaded a planet, lets look at what we have to do still - landing, suppression of local military, and organization of our own government systems.

1 - Landing - frankly the easiest part. PF indicates "limited" orbital strikes exist which, while crippling to ground installations, wouldn't utterly ruin the planets biosphere. So, anything that fires on your transports during their descent is likely to find itself very quickly the target of some unwelcome attention. This will discourage anything but remotely-launched, disposable systems; systems which are also likely to be more succeptible to E-warfare (which is, by the way, the only thing your transports are going to have in your favor). Even so, shooting down a single transport could cause hundreds, if not thousands of casualties.

2- Suppression of local military - This is where things get tricky. I won't go down a list of all the times a smaller, less-well-equipped force with greater motivation, a knowledge of the locality, support of the local population, and lots of space to retreat into has utterly decimated a larger attacking force, but I will give a one choice example to illustrate my point: Iwo Jima.

During the battle for Iwo Jima, a vastly undergunned, far smaller force with knowledge of the terrain and excellent preparation inflicted horrifying casualties on a much larger force. In my opinion, this would be the best option for fending off (or at least delaying) an orbital invasion - wait until the first waves have landed, the initiate an attack from concealed positions while using the terrain to remain unseen by the heavy weapons of the orbital fleet. Continue to fall back, inflicting casualties as you do, and then commence an assymmetric war to counter the enemies' ever-increasing numerical advantage. In this way, a far-superior invading force could be bled out which, while not stopping them, would make invading the next few planets a... questionable excersize.

3 - Setting up you own goverment - this might be the easiest, or the hardest step. How resitant is the local populace? How much freedom are you willing to afford the local population? How ruthless are you willing to be? A great deal in terms of need for continued occupation hinges on these questions. It might be a smooth transfer, or a subjugated but not accepting people, or even a planet-wide insurgency of sabotage and ambush - again, how ruthless are you willing to be?

TL;DR - Invading a planet is a truly incredible expense of resources, including lives. Done right, defenders can inflict terrifying casualties on attackers while being resupplied indefinitely by speedy orbital transport. Even after the official military is crushed, you've got the potential of an uncooperative population and/or insurgency to deal with. So, if you spend all this invading one planet... how many can you sustain? The idea of the Empires fighting over entire planets time and time again starts to rapidly become diffiult to accept.

DISCLAIMER: The situation I've outlined here is a "worst case scenario" for the invaders. NOT ALL INVASIONS will follow this outline. Many may be bloodless, or end in the quick suppression of hostile elements. This outline is meant to represent the reasons why repeated planetary invasions would NOT work, not the reasons they would - those, I feel, are already self-evident.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Mithfindel

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #3 on: 06 May 2011, 00:48 »

We're talking about a civilization with "future tech" levels. Taking one from the old book (Sun Tzu), when the enemy is crossing a river, let half of their force cross and attack. Combining this with the new, let them establish a beachhead and then perform a saturation bombardment with H-bombs.

The counter to this for the attacking force is that they will need to land into inhabited or otherwise important areas of the planet, possibly in a hot drop, so that they'll be able to fight over the planet if they want it.

Assuming that the planet is carrying out the role of a fortress (Clausewitz), the attackers need to make sure that it does not pose a threat to their advancing forces from the behind, but have no use for the planet itself, the "logical" option is to nuke it from the orbit, assuming this is socially acceptable.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #4 on: 06 May 2011, 03:02 »

It's not necessarily total invasion of a planet when occupancy switches. The Amarr might have some large scale slave camp on one of their worlds, and the Republic decide to launch a strike against that. Planets are big (well, Earth is big) so there's likely a lot of skirmishies (relative to the size of New Eden) that occur groundside.

Moreover, they might not launch conquering invasions if their intelligence indicates that system control might flip back relatively soon, according to capsuleer intelligence.
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Chowda

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #5 on: 09 May 2011, 09:28 »

It's not necessarily total invasion of a planet when occupancy switches. The Amarr might have some large scale slave camp on one of their worlds, and the Republic decide to launch a strike against that. Planets are big (well, Earth is big) so there's likely a lot of skirmishies (relative to the size of New Eden) that occur groundside.

Moreover, they might not launch conquering invasions if their intelligence indicates that system control might flip back relatively soon, according to capsuleer intelligence.
I think the current space-borne occupancy mechanic translates to stuff like who gets the proper share of taxes and fees from bounty offices.  Yeah, I know nothing changes in that regard in the game, but those are the kinds of things I like to imagine changes hands when a side takes over the space in a system.

Personally, I hope that FW is the free for all mode in DUST where a certain amount of match victories can win over a planet in a system.  Or maybe only have planets in contested or occupied systems be available for taking over.  I think it would be a good way to feed off one another without being too complex.   
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Seriphyn

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #6 on: 09 May 2011, 09:37 »

I think the current space-borne occupancy mechanic translates to stuff like who gets the proper share of taxes and fees from bounty offices.  Yeah, I know nothing changes in that regard in the game, but those are the kinds of things I like to imagine changes hands when a side takes over the space in a system.

Not necessarily. Occupancy represents an outright military conquest of a solar system and, if it goes on long enough, an annexation, with new regimes put in place etc. This was all detailed in the Gallente/Caldari storyline during 2009-10, which had Gallente occupied systems become new territories of the Caldari megacorps.

Little has been revealed on the Amarr/Minmatar side though.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #7 on: 09 May 2011, 11:34 »

I think the current space-borne occupancy mechanic translates to stuff like who gets the proper share of taxes and fees from bounty offices.  Yeah, I know nothing changes in that regard in the game, but those are the kinds of things I like to imagine changes hands when a side takes over the space in a system.

Unfortunately, while this idea makes far more sense than out-and-out planetary invasions - getting stuff up off a planet is far, far harder to do and far, far easier to spot than getting stuff down - several chronicles and news stories have confirmed planetary invasions are occuring.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Chowda

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #8 on: 09 May 2011, 17:04 »

Not necessarily. Occupancy represents an outright military conquest of a solar system and, if it goes on long enough, an annexation, with new regimes put in place etc. This was all detailed in the Gallente/Caldari storyline during 2009-10, which had Gallente occupied systems become new territories of the Caldari megacorps.
Sure, but it needed the Chronicles/PF written to make it happen.  Systems have changed occupancy since, and without the PF there's nothing to indicate the planets changed hands.  If you want to retcon to account for the absence of stories, I imagine planets wising up and installing the necessary defenses to prevent the invasions that happened at the beginning of FW (and the PF written to hype up that feature). 



 


« Last Edit: 09 May 2011, 17:07 by Chowda »
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Seriphyn

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #9 on: 09 May 2011, 17:18 »

Nah, there was indication how they'd been "driven out". They make their return if the system returns to State control, but likely wouldn't risk the ISK to invest in a return if there was no sign of it changing back. CCP "set that up for the long-term" in that regard.

Even without PF indication (PF has sorta 'stopped' publication for now anyway), there is no reason to believe that the Federation would tolerate SuVee controlling own of their planets when the FedNav controls the system.
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Chowda

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #10 on: 10 May 2011, 09:53 »

What happened when the Caldari completely controlled the battlefield?  Didn't CCP reset it?
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Casiella

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #11 on: 10 May 2011, 09:57 »

No, the Gallente took it back.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #12 on: 10 May 2011, 11:28 »

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Chowda

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #13 on: 10 May 2011, 17:32 »

Interesting retcon, but I also hear there was a mass exodus from the Caldari militia after they "won". 
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Seriphyn

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Re: Ground warfare in FW
« Reply #14 on: 10 May 2011, 17:33 »

Retcon?

There wasn't really an exodus. Full occupation consolidated in May 2009, broken in December 2009. Only recently got the last 2 systems last month.
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