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[orange]

I decided to start a new thread about what I mean by Corporate RP and what LDIS and I think FEDRO are attempting.

Corporate RP isn't easy.

Hm, I always got the impression it was far easier and more attractive to outsiders. Maybe because of the carebear-to-RPer ratio.

Corporate RP in my definition is not about claiming a corporate structure and shareholders.  It is not about fictional subsidiaries or fictional shareholders who are expecting a return on investment that will never come.  The quarterly reports are not works of fiction.

These corporation's shares have ISK value.  The quarterly reports detail the progress of the corporation in pursuit of its goals.  The corporation, not individual characters, owns assets used to support corporate goals and usable by members/employees.  Corporation members are employees, whose efforts earn some pay or salary.  The employees are not expected to be self-sufficient in support of corporate goals; the corporation pays for ships, modules, etc  needed to achieve some goal.

[Casiella]

By that definition, I think REAW qualifies to some extent.

[Ulphus]

By that definition, I think REAW qualifies to some extent.

It didn't use to, but I think the new management has moved it more in that direction.

[Casiella]

Hm, yes, I don't know about the old days but it's gotten that way now.

Gradient certainly seems to qualify.

[Ciarente]

Actually, no. The only  part of Orange's definition that applies to Re-Aw is the last sentence.

I would say that Re-Aw's collective RP is that we're RPing as an organization, not as a corporation in the sense Orange means it.

[Ken]

I think your model is one way of creating interesting "corporate" RP, Dex, but not the only way.  You're describing a corporation in the sense that we understand them today: as a profit-seeking company with managers, employees, and investors.  Now, I would not consider the existence of actual investors, the managing of personnel, projects, and salaries, or the publishing of factual performance reports in the game to constitute RP per se.  I see those things as part of operating a for-profit group in EVE with a functional corporate structure.  To demonstrate this, consider how it is possible to do all of those things without once engaging in a single in-character action or conversation.

I define corporate RP as the in-character representation of a particular group as a profit-seeking enterprise with the trappings of a business entity.  That doesn't have to extend to making up pretend investors or shareholders, but it does entail emulating elements of the business profession.  Rather than forming around the theme of a military unit (government or private; see EL-G) or an ideological movement (political or religious; see Jericho Fraction), corporate RP is about building a group around a business or industrial theme.  Characters in such a group might wear fancy clothes, have interviews and strategy sessions, attend trade conferences, schmooze a bit with influential people, help their pilots with professional development, and think of ways to make money and expand the company.

With FEDRO I am actively seeking to build a very diverse group of characters.  The CEO is an Intaki woman with Progressor politics and not a little bit of repressed Gallente hedonism lurking beneath the surface.  The COO (well, you know him) is a former director from a Caldari patriot corp.  Apples and oranges (no pun intended), but we're making some strange fruit punch out of it... something that tastes like Crielere, Spectrum Breach, the HappyChip, and the Synenose Accord mixed over ice with a lime twist.  Actually setting up a functional corporate structure, like the one you describe in place in LDIS, to underlie the RP is part of the plan, but I don't see that structure as being the RP heart of FEDRO.

Of course, I'm the Gallentean in this scenario.  So maybe it's only fitting that I weight the esoteric stuff over the hardball stuff.  Hamish, unsurprisingly, is my number-crunching "let's get this thing in order, chop, chop" counterpoint.  Melding the two philosophies into something not only profitable but also entertaining is what I'm most enjoying about this little cultural and political border-vaulting adventure.  For Science!

[Seriphyn]

When I mentioned "corporate RP", I was definitely referring to styles and themes. It seems far more easier to pull off a corporate-style corporation than a military one in EVE perhaps, given that the actual corporation interface is, well, called corporation.

Given the success of CAIN, I might be mistaken. Since Gallentean RPers in general don't seem massive militarists, it might be harder to harvest military RPers. I mean, even though the PF realities have changed, you log straight into the game, and you open up the descriptions for the Caldari Navy and Federation Navy. The latter says its lacking and generally sux0rs, while for the Caldari Navy it says its the best in the universe etc etc

[Vieve]

With FEDRO I am actively seeking to build a very diverse group of characters.  The CEO is an Intaki woman with Progressor politics and not a little bit of repressed Gallente hedonism lurking beneath the surface.  The COO (well, you know him) is a former director from a Caldari patriot corp.

 

Celeste's extended vacation is looking more like a good idea by the day. 

[Chowda]

Corporate roleplay is indeed tough to pull off.  WRLDE once had a recruitment drive to get PI alts to help our P4 planets run 24/7.  The problem was we wanted them to stay camped in a low sec system and cycle extractors once or twice a day.  They were essentially our workers who sold their stock to us using the weekly bulletin prices.  Many play games to escape the confines of real life, not have new limitations imposed, even with alts.  So, even with alts we had a tough time retaining workers even though they made about 30-50 million a week doing very little work. 

One of the problems with rp industrial corps is you tend to give up some profit and freedom by joining.   If you don't have a unique purpose for your products, it becomes pointless for subordinates.  Many see what they produce vanish in some other step in the manufacturing chain.  The things you gain need to offset the sometimes boring tasks you are responsible for.

Such things could be:

* Supplying a military corp with armaments
* Attempting to build up or leverage a market
* Claiming a system(s) for industrial use and shooting (or have some else shoot) anyone else who tries to tap into the resources
* Having a certain look or feel to being in the corp

That last one will be helped a ton with Incarna.  An rp corp should look to install some sort of dress code, giving some sense of worth to those who do the lowly tasks in industrial corps.   

[Casiella]

I don't think treating capsuleers as low-level employees, rather than as the equivalent of executives in charge of their own business units, really makes sense for lots of reasons.

And FWIW, while Cia is the CEO and I'm still a probationer, REAW feels more "corporationy" than lots of others, assuming you take away the bit about shareholders.

[Ken]

I don't think treating capsuleers as low-level employees, rather than as the equivalent of executives in charge of their own business units, really makes sense for lots of reasons.

And that's the biggest problem with trying to create a functional corporate structure in EVE.  All of our characters are in a professional position probably best equated with that of very desirable and very well-compensated specialists and private consultants in the real corporate world.  Moreover, players don't want to be treated like peons.  I know I certainly wouldn't.  Thus, the typical hierarchy and segregation of executives, managers, and workers is not feasible in EVE if you want your members to have a decent return on OOC entertainment value for their time spent, and I think you're shooting yourself in the foot if you try to force it for the sake of being "corporate". 

This is why I refer to FEDRO as a consortium of capsuleers and both IC and OOC try to treat our members like equals rather than subordinate employees.  Everyone has a role to play depending on their experience with the game, interests, resources, and time available.  Those factors, rather than time served or the need to fill spots in a hierarchy, should determine one's role and position within an EVE corporation.  There are a lot of things for people to do even in the most industrial-focused corp.  If someone is more casual with their EVE time or is as yet unsure of what they want to do, we're happy to have them do some simple PI resourcing, mission running, RP development, and/or join in an occasional w-space jaunt.  If someone never logs out of the client, well, we need a CFO, a security team leader and FC, and someone to scout entire regions for juicy moons and other things.  In short, because this is a game and not real life, you have to treat a corp internally like you would a club and not a job.  On the outside, however, go for all the corporate trappings.

[Isobel Mitar]

In short, because this is a game and not real life, you have to treat a corp internally like you would a club and not a job.  On the outside, however, go for all the corporate trappings.

As an observation, capsuleers are powerful and pretty independent in addition to often being egoistical and bit crazy. It makes perfect sense IC that employing capsuleers is not like employing ordinary people.

One can't really treat a rank-and-file capsuleer employee like one would  treat a rank-and-file non-capsuleer employee, or expect to have a similar social dynamics in employee-employer relationships. The parameters are just too different.

[Casiella]

Agreed, Isobel, and that's what I tried to get after. Generally speaking, I find it makes more sense for me to think of each capsuleer as an executive, with his own staff and project responsibilities. In a profit-oriented organization, this means assigning each member various projects (rather than specific tasks) and providing the support needed to accomplish them. Oversight from the leadership may vary, depending on factors like project needs, capital requirements, and internal corporate culture.

Now playstyles vary, so I certainly have nothing bad to say about folks like Lockefox with Hell's Librarians, who runs a tight, well-managed organization. But I think those sorts of organizations typically make up a small minority of industrial corps, RP or otherwise.

Treating capsuleers as salaried employees may certainly work for some people, but I see it as only one of several paths to "corporate RP".

[Chowda]

I think the game allows for industrial subordinates in a few areas.  Mining is the best example if the corp has a well-leveled mining director.  There's even a program out there that can calculate what to pay pilots per op.  Newer miners wind up getting much more out of the bonuses and not having to travel (or jet can for that matter) even after getting paid based on buy prices.

In the example I gave about hiring PI alts, my brother and I did think it was weird but we needed the supply and thought we would try it out.  I definitely wasn't implying that worker bees are the way to go.  Those are roles best served by alts of CEO's and directors.   

[Hamish Grayson]

For me, true corporate RP means you actually keep track of your money and profits via a balance Sheet, profit and loss statement, a cashflow statement and a budget.    It also requires clearly defined goals and a detailed written plan for achieving them that includes benchmarks, deadlines and a way of measuring the distance to success.

It means that you keep a mindset of focusing on the activities that are going make you the most money per hour for the least amount of effort and grief for your corp mates.   Don't focus on selling a specific product, selling in a specific area, or creating a completely vertical production chain if the product doesn't make money, nobody shops in that area and certain parts of that production chain take a lot of effort without adding much to the bottom line.

Basically, keep simple accounting records, have a business plan and don't shoe horn yourself into a certain product or way of doing things 'for the RP' if they don't make money.  If your character was a true businessman he'd follow the money too.