Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

That the Amarrian "godflesh" taboo forbids against cloning? Until YC119, anyway!

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Minmatar politics  (Read 4647 times)

Casiella

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3723
  • Creation is so precious, and greed so destructive.
Minmatar politics
« on: 02 Apr 2011, 09:24 »

NB: Intended as a catch-all for broad discussion of Minmatar politics. Please feel free to spin off any detailed discussion into its own thread once it springs up.

The Tribal Republic has a Sanmatar, by definition removed from his tribe, and a parliament, in addition to a number of executive agencies and such (Fleet, Security Services, Justice Department, etc.) Additionally, we have a number of corporations like Urban Management which have large government contracts to manage what otherwise might be internal functions.

Do the Minmatar have political parties, similar to the Federation? Or does representation occur through the tribes? Who has established RP projects around the Starkmanir/Nefantar returnees?
Logged

Graelyn

  • Ye Olde One
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1349
  • These things just seem to happen...
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #1 on: 02 Apr 2011, 11:20 »

After the homogenization (sterilization?) of the Minmatar through TEA, I'm not sure anyone knows.
Logged


If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

scagga

  • Everything for Vaari
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 570
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #2 on: 02 Apr 2011, 11:22 »

I think we had a defacto RP project re: nefantar returnees.  Peri-our penultimate war with Electus Matari there were a handful of Ammatar who had treacherously defected to their ranks.  It did result in some interesting banter, and I did instruct the gentlemen of low moral fibre to suicide one of their hulks in high sec (this particular peasant defected to NMTZ).  If you mean project like a literary product, I'm afraid not.

Quote they gave me from local:

Jack Dant > Lord Scagga remembers
Roland Deschaines > Lord Scagga's warath is upon you
Sulthis > wth

http://scone.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=5830
« Last Edit: 02 Apr 2011, 11:25 by scagga »
Logged

Seriphyn

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2118
  • New and improved, and only in FFXIV
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #3 on: 02 Apr 2011, 12:00 »

I don't think it's really clear how much the Republic political system changed when Shakor came to power...apparently it's moved in a more tribal system, versus democracy but...there are recent news items that suggest it still is parliamentary in some ways...

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4066&tid=9 "ex-member of parliament for the Representative Party". The use "MP" is used elsewhere (Gallenteans invented parliament system perhaps, for they have 'district parliaments').

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3611&tid=4 ""Their candidates are basically complete strangers.  How are you supposed to make a good decision who to vote for?  At least here in the Republic, they are members of our tribe."

So, Minmatar democracy exists in their own way, perhaps voting for tribe members to represent them, instead of parties?
Logged

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #4 on: 02 Apr 2011, 12:31 »

I have more or less the impression that the tribes ARE the political parties. I think it is a little rough put like this though, and I might be wrong.

Though I would really be interested either to learn more about how precisely the system works.
Logged

Chowda

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #5 on: 10 Apr 2011, 15:13 »

I thought the "republic" part was the tribes sending representatives to parliment.  Do most elect them, or are they mostly picked by tribal elders for whatever reason (family, exceptional talent, etc...)?
Logged

Valdezi

  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 587
    • Stories by me
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #6 on: 10 Apr 2011, 18:35 »

In NZ, because of the treatu of Waitangi (any Kiwis here probably know more) the Maori tribes have prescibed number of representatives in parliament.

I thought Republic politics might be like that.

Or like the Australian Parliament - the lower house are represntatives of a region (i.e. The Member for Rens) but the upper house has twelve representatives per state. This could be the Minmatar senate - the Tribes' house. 12 Brutors, 12 Sebiestors etc.

I really have no idea, I'm just spitballing.
Logged

Ulphus

  • Bitter dried flower
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 611
Tribal Politics in Matari space.
« Reply #7 on: 10 Apr 2011, 19:50 »

My take on it is mostly for our clan, and I try to leave room for things to be very different in other clans and tribes without having to contradict me1. Also, I rather expect Matariki will have a slightly different take as well.

The Atamahara Clan belongs to the Matu'shindor sub-tribe which is a gathering of clans of similar political and traditional leanings, and maybe similar geographical origins. The sub-tribe has a bit of intermarrying for political purposes and each clan has influence according to their wealth and the prominence of their members.

The level of influence of each clan is affected by many things; One way to get more influence is to give gifts, and the richer clans are naturally more able to do this. Another way is to have prominent members out there doing things in public - Loyalist Pod pilots are therefore a valuable commodity from the clans point of view, both for their wealth and their profile.

The sub-tribe has a chief, who represents the clans under her at the next level up (I'm not entirely sure what that is, it might be a tribal council on the world) but doesn't get to decide purely on their own whim, but is influenced by the desires of the various clans and important people, with appropriate weight for how important the clan is to the sub-tribe. The Chief gets to stay the chief by having most of the clans in the sub-tribe happier with the incumbent than the trouble would be worth to change to someone else. Make too many decisions that irritate, or piss too many people off, and either some clans will leave the sub-tribe, or they'll get someone else to be the chief.

One way that it is decided how the sub-tribe will vote, or decide on a topic is that the elders will sit around and listen to representations. If you wanted the sub-clan to provide support for your pet project, you might start by talking to an elder from your clan, one-on-one, and if you can convince them they might invite you to talk to the clan council. The clan council would have a discussion after you leave, and weigh up the benefits and costs, (social as well as monetary) and if they favour it, they'll push it in the sub-clan level.

There will be trade-offs at each level. People who are owed favours, or married to someone's son, or the daughter of someone important will have their requests looked at with more favour (Kin favours kin). There will be negotiations for mutual webs of support with other elders/clans etc, and I would expect that some proposals get put to the sub-tribe so that they can be backed down on, so that the people they back down to will owe them a favour later. It's all very complicated, the rules aren't really written down, and it depends on the social interactions of the people at that level of decision making.

At the next level up, which I expect might be the continental tribal council, or the Planetary Tribal council, the same things will happen, only writ-larger. Kin ties will still be important, but so will history and competence. Charismatic types who have lots of kin ties and come from important clans will have a much better chance of getting to be a leader, or if not the leader, being influential on the council.

And finally, when we get to the Inter-Tribal council where decisions are made about the republic, every member of that council has a vast array of favours and kin and history that got them to where they are now. They each have people to reward for their support, planets that they have cousins living on, people who have pissed them off. All of that will influence decisions, but still, they will be encouraged to have the good of the republic at heart.

The way that those competing loyalties and considerations meet together would be a fascinating thing to watch, but is rather outside my level of comfort 1 when it comes to trying to describe.


In NZ, because of the treatu of Waitangi (any Kiwis here probably know more) the Maori tribes have prescibed number of representatives in parliament.

I thought Republic politics might be like that.

The Treaty of Waitangi says that there is a partnership between the Maori tribes and the Crown (currently Queen Elizabeth). One definition of this was to give mandatory seats to be elected by the Maori - Maori can choose to be on the General Roll, or the Maori Roll, which affects who they get to vote for.

Since NZ moved to Proportional representation, we now have a situation where the number of Maori seats is dependent on the population who have chosen to be on the Maori roll, so that each electorate should have a similar number of voters in it (There are some historic oddities to do with geography, but the principle is true, even if intentionally violated). The side effect of this is that if more people (of at least a certain quanta) choose to join the Maori electorate roll, then there will be more Maori MPs. If enough leave, there will be fewer.

This is basically a representative democracy, and isn't really anything like I imagine the Matari to be. That's possibly because it's normal to me, and I want the Matari to be different :)



1 - I can make stuff up about my clan and my sub-tribe without worrying much about trying to write canon, but I'd rather not try to tell other people how their clan works.



Logged
Adult to 4y.o "Your shoes are on the wrong feet"
Long pause
4y.o to adult, in plaintive voice "I don't have any other feet!"

Casiella

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3723
  • Creation is so precious, and greed so destructive.
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #8 on: 10 Apr 2011, 20:43 »

I don't know that CCP has ever specified how the Republic chooses MPs, so I tend to want to think that it's more or less up to each "district", within various loose parameters that get applied to varying degrees. That is, the Republic would almost certainly have laws against bribery and corruption, but if the local Justice Department officials are in on it...
Logged

Ulphus

  • Bitter dried flower
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 611
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #9 on: 10 Apr 2011, 20:55 »

Note that bribes are completely different from giving gifts to people with whom you do business...

Also note that my musings above suggest to me that if you're one of those Matari living a long way from your clan because you wanted a well paid job in a different city, that your political representation is significantly weaker than if you live in the same neighbourhood as your clan chief. All Matari are not going to have equal political opportunity.

That's one of those things that bugs me IRL but that I try to have Ulf think is completely normal and appropriate.
Logged
Adult to 4y.o "Your shoes are on the wrong feet"
Long pause
4y.o to adult, in plaintive voice "I don't have any other feet!"

Gottii

  • A Booty-full Mind
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1024
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #10 on: 10 Apr 2011, 23:53 »

Until recently, Minmatar society was an autocracy with the Sunglassed Ones ruling over the low castes.  Since the Incursion patch, chaos has engulfed the Republic, and the whole social structure has been thrown off.
Logged
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov

Chowda

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #11 on: 12 Apr 2011, 07:33 »

In NZ, because of the treatu of Waitangi (any Kiwis here probably know more) the Maori tribes have prescibed number of representatives in parliament.

I thought Republic politics might be like that.

Or like the Australian Parliament - the lower house are represntatives of a region (i.e. The Member for Rens) but the upper house has twelve representatives per state. This could be the Minmatar senate - the Tribes' house. 12 Brutors, 12 Sebiestors etc.

I really have no idea, I'm just spitballing.
Or like Inner Mongolia, where the Hans in the Communist Party pick an ethnic Mongul as governor. ;)
Logged

Matariki Rain

  • Sweet, gentle Mata
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #12 on: 13 Apr 2011, 20:29 »


Ulf asked me to post on this, but I don't have a huge amount to add.

One of the reasons I play Minmatar is to explore modern high-tech tribalism.

I get to mix together a bunch of things that interest me:

  • the idea of "phyles" presented in Neal Stephenson's novel The Diamond Age
  • cultural authenticity debates in situations where there isn't a continuous living tradition and the culture is being re-created from stories, wishes and the works of well-meaning but misguided anthropologists, or where the living tradition has been fundamentally changed by colonisation, slavery, or the desire to make a tourist dollar
  • enculturation: gaining, maintaining and losing cultural ties (the Returned, the urbanised, the GalFed Matari, the convert-zeal neoTrads and the mellow third- and fourth-gen freeborn)
  • personal freedoms and choices in group- and duty-focused cultures
  • thrilling and horrifying Gallente with a mix of "proud spiritual awareness" and coming-of-age practices that seem abusive from their point of view
  • gently prodding people who've never questioned that one-person:-one-vote representative democracy is clearly the morally right way to run a state.

I find it refreshing.

Only the last of these is directly related to the OP.

I don't have a clear view of the detail of how a tribal society might run an interstellar state -- and I'm likely to leave that to CCP to flesh out because I expect they'd have different views to mine -- but Ulf's done a fair summary of my assumptions about the general shape of it.

The Gallente tried to give us their template for a state. That was very nice of them, but we'd like to make our own model now. We haven't got there yet, but we're working on it.

Despite the comment that Shakor's rise came "at the cost of a good woman’s political career and the stability of our government" it seems that Karin Midular is still chief of the Sebiestor tribe, which seems rather more important than being Prime Minister even if she herself might not have thought so. There are people who scan any edict from the (old) parliament or (new) tribal council to see whether she supported it.
Logged

Isobel Mitar

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #13 on: 14 Apr 2011, 06:04 »

Some snippets and comments. Heavily edited (=rewritten) after posting for readability, mostly because the previous quote soup I posted started to niggle at me. ;)

I belive currently the Republic has both a tribal council and a parliament, both of which have some powers. Shakor seems to be aiming towards more power for the tribal council and possibly his administration, and less for the parliament. ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2794&tid=3 )


About tribal council and tribes

The tribal council presumably consists of the heads of different tribes. Formerly four, now seven. I expect different tribes would have different ways of selecting their leaders. According to PF, the head of the tribe has a good deal of power in his own tribe, but little outside it - the tribes seem largely autonomous. Tribes appear to have some military forces of their own, for example. ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2070&tid=3 )

Quote
Each of the seven major tribes has a tribal leader; this person serves pretty much the same position as a president or a head of state for the tribes. The authority of the tribe leader is unquestioned within the tribe, but he has little or no power outside his tribe.
( http://www.eveonline.com/races/minmatarTribe_intro.asp )

I personally tend to agree with Ulf's theories that each tribe would have traditionally approved ways of using tribal leader's power, and a tribal head that makes too many "wrong" moves may start to lose support and eventually get changed.

I find the following quote particularly interesting, not only because it possibly hints at tribal stereotypes, but also because Shakor is not the head of Brutor tribe - Wkumi Pol is, and has been in that position even before Shakor became Sanmatar. ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Brutor_tribe_%28NPC_corporation%29 )

Quote
Issuing a sharp retort to Sanmatar Shakor’s expression of frustration, caravan master Jagnus Drur hotly replied, “the Brutor may bow to the rule of a single strong man, but we Thukker are masters of our own destinies.”
( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4025&tid=3 )

The Sanmatar position seems to be some kind of mediator for the tribal council. He does not appear to have much practical power over the tribes (beyond persuasion). The are are a couple of newspieces where different tribal leaders basically flaunt their independence. For example, while Shakor would like to hurry asembling the tribal council, "the demands on the time of a Thukker caravan master are many" ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4025&tid=3 )

It is unclear to me how much power Sanmatar has over other parts of the administration, for example RSS and RJD. As a note, PF suggests that clans are not required to abide by Republic Justice Department's legal rulings. ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2054&tid=3 )


About the Parliament

The parliament seems to have representation from different tribes, and are elected somehow. Different news sources suggest that parliament members are referred to primarily by their tribe ("Sebestior parliamentarian Orvas Seriador"), but also have acknowledged other leanings - possibly parties of some kind? "The Democratists" at least have been referred to several times. ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2794&tid=3 )

The Republic Parliament page in Evelopedia gives tribes as shareholders, I'm not sure if this can be interpreted as representation or some kind of pull in the organization:
Quote
Sebiestor tribe 35 %
Krusual tribe 30 %
Vherokior tribe 15 %
Brutor tribe 20 %
( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Republic_Parliament_%28NPC_corporation%29 )

The Parliament has a Head. According to Evelopedia, Malaetu Shakor still holds this position.

There also used to be a prime minister. The prime minister got elected, in "a general election", whatever that may mean. ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2079&tid=4 )
« Last Edit: 14 Apr 2011, 12:03 by Isobel Mitar »
Logged

Seriphyn

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2118
  • New and improved, and only in FFXIV
Re: Minmatar politics
« Reply #14 on: 15 Apr 2011, 13:09 »

Parliament and Prime minister are going to be Gallente creations. I like to think that the current form of the Republic is elected tribal officials. Unless CCP intends to remove or change the Republic Parliament NPC corporation, i think this is a safe bet? There has to be some form of democracy for a parliament to exist ideally/technically. That idea which I brought up in those news items seems to be a midway point between having the tribal government and the semantic existence of "Parliament".

But I think there is no clear communication within the content team. One writer might say its elected tribal officials, another might say that Parliament is no longer a democratic institute but tribal. It is still a "Republic" right? Another Gallente invention. In the chron "The Dark End OF Space" it mentioned a difference between Republic Minmatar and Nation Minmatar. Not every Minmatar is supportive of a tribal system
Logged
Pages: [1] 2