Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Seriphyn]

On the Internet, there is a "standard morality" that dominates 85-90% of ethical expectations. Or perhaps less dominates, but is the most vocal. This "standard morality" is composed of the beliefs that "all are equal, without regards to gender, race or sexual orientation" for one, while "God doesn't exist" is another. It is a very liberal set of morality, talking open societies and acceptance of everyone. That's fine in and off itself, but as was discussed on the other thread, it becomes an issue when brought into EVE RP, or at least, I think it is.

This is a universe where institutionalized, widespread racial slavery exists. We've had racial genocide by that same group as well against the Starkmanir. Yet, even with that in mind, I sense a lot of PC amongst EVE interactions. Let's take Caldari attitudes to homosexuality; apparently they remove people from their military if they find out they're gay (don't ask, don't tell). Now, some people might try to bend this, or ignore it, or 95% of the time not even know about it since it's such an obscure reference. It is inconvienient, maybe because it paints the Caldari as homophobic. But I respond with...

So? In our world, sure, fine, homosexuality is fine and perfectly normal. But as I mentioned, in the world of EVE, we've got slavery based on the colour of your skin, so why shouldn't we expect homophobia? Plenty of the cultures in the world today dislike homosexuality. That is how the Caldari roll, and that's just how it is (if we're assuming it is true that is). If they are a traditional culture versus a progressive one, with social pressures to "fit in", then the prevalance of homosexuality might be far less anyway.

Let's take the execution of Anvent Eturrer for the Gallente as well. 95% of character reaction was "omg this is bad"...but in turn I response with another "So?". From follow-up news items, it appears public execution is legal and prevalent in the Federation. OOC/OOG, yes, it was a pretty barbaric execution, and I'm anti-execution in 99% of cases anyway, but IC, Seriphyn would not see a problem. If he's spent 30 years in this culture where public execution is normal, then he'll just shrug at it.

Finally, let's take a look at "closed societies", particularly with the Caldari State and Minmatar Republic. We have many non-Minmatar roleplaying Republic loyalists, but I get the feeling that, if it was all "real", the Minmatar would not appreciate foreigners taking up their flag (for they certainly are beginning to dislike Gallenteans being their champions). If you are Minmatar, you know the plight and struggle of your people, you are bound to them through blood and are obliged to take the cause. If you are foreign, though, you might just be seen to the same degree as a Western feminist will be seen to feminists in Iran ie. "Go away, this is not you fight, this is not your business. You do not know our culture, and you do not know our struggle".

The Caldari State, similarly, is very much bound to its own culture too. I don't feel they would be accepting of foreigners, and again, I'm likely going to shot down for this, saying they are a "closed society". So what if they are? Not every country in 21st century Earth is an open society, and this "internet morality" of 'everyone should be accepted' is applied here. It's not a bad thing, again, it's just how the Caldari roll. If they're trying to protect their culture from dying out, the last thing they will do is accept foreigners coming in and practicing their own.

HOWEVER, turning this whole thing on its head, the problem with you personally eliminating these elements of PC does not mean others will. If the Caldari are homophobic, then other player-characters will use this to "attack" your RP'd faction the same way slavery is. Less of an IC attack, more of a "ha ur faction sux". Cultural relativism basically, I'm not sure Caldari RPers would appreciate the possibility of their faction being homophobic because, well, homophobia is bad etc. Same with anything else, like the Gallenteans finding public execution perfectly normal, as with the quite disturbing bodymods described in the Burning Life being common (though it's apparently a niche culture, that)

Frankly, it's not going to change anyway; the "Internet ethical standard" will remain, and always be applied to EVE...institutional racism is fine, but the possibility of any other form of institutional discrimination is not =/

[Senn Typhos]

Let's take Caldari attitudes to homosexuality; apparently they remove people from their military if they find out they're gay (don't ask, don't tell).

Got a citation for us? Curiosity's sake.

[Milo Caman]

Got a citation for us? Curiosity's sake.

http://eveinfo.com/npcship/13589/eve-online-kaikka-peunato.html

Kaikka Peunato
Asteroid Guristas Officer


Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence. Threat level: Deadly

[DosTuMai]

Avent Eturrer's execution was watched with detached curiosity by Dossie IC, OOC I don't agree with it. Better to let someone rot and think of their disgressions than kill them off-hand.
PC isn't something my characters do, neither do I. I still call gay friends poofs and often introduce my gf as a goth-lesbo-dyke. Which usually gets me a slap and a witty retort, or she just responds in kind as says I'm more dyke than she is.
IC/OOC, I find political correctness to be a great steaming pile of heffalump p00pies that can go pucker upon my posterior.

[Senn Typhos]

Interesting stuff. :O

I suppose I would agree with the gist of this thread, for one very large reason in my head; I don't see why it'd be shocking or upsetting to anyone that homosexuality wasn't tolerated in the military or slavery was still legal or black market deals and prostitution were still rife, or whatever...

When capsuleers kill millions upon millions of crew members in a given year. Seems weird to avoid something like "don't ask don't tell" because it's a sensitive issue or whatever, but be totally fine with mass murder.

[Casiella]

Is there a TL;DR version for us folks with old eyes? I got something about how EVE isn't generally an open, classically liberal society (except for the Fed, natch), but from there I just couldn't focus.

It might just be the lack of coffee, but a central thesis would still help me.

[Seriphyn]

Caldari being potentially homophobic isn't a bad thing. It's how they roll (if it's true)

Minmatar would not appreciate foreigners trying to help them out, because it's THEIR plight.

Gallente public execution (ie. Anvent Eturrer) might be normal to people who have spent their life growing up in Fed where it is common and/or legal.

Amarr has institionalized slavery based on race; any other form of discrimination is likely.

Problem of applying OOC "internet morality standard" to EVE RP and fiction.

[Saede Riordan]

Well since I play an effectively immoral character by "liberal internet standards" this hasn't actually come up. But yeah, I can see how it might be seen as an issue, but any RP, hell, any fiction, is going to be shaped by the culture of the players/writers. You just gotta role with it.

[Senn Typhos]

Caldari being potentially homophobic isn't a bad thing. It's how they roll (if it's true)

Minmatar would not appreciate foreigners trying to help them out, because it's THEIR plight.

Gallente public execution (ie. Anvent Eturrer) might be normal to people who have spent their life growing up in Fed where it is common and/or legal.

Amarr has institionalized slavery based on race; any other form of discrimination is likely.

Problem of applying OOC "internet morality standard" to EVE RP and fiction.

If you ask me, it's a little silly of people. I mean honestly, with how messed up the cluster is, I don't see why we skirt away from these things. For that matter, it is a fictional universe. I mean I don't like how quarians get treated, but I'm not gonna make a federal space lawsuit about it.

I dunno, I might just attribute it to how people go into culture shock. I think it was only recently that people boggled at Egyptians being 88% in favor of democracy and 86% in favor of stoning adulteresses. Not every place is like the one you're used to, especially if it's a fictional place. >>

[Vikarion]

The morality of our day is not consistent. Indeed, the interesting thing about it is that it views discriminatory and non-tolerant words and actions as effectively worse than actions that are arguably more destructive. For example, Nazism is terrible because it is racist, but Communism, with a body count far higher, is usually seen as misguided at worst and, more often, just as people being a bit too idealistic. Heck, we had someone on this board say something equivalent to "what's wrong with Communism".

So, in this sort of morality, it really wouldn't matter if the Minmatar were bloody, vicious, and absolutely depraved savages, because the Amarr are prejudiced and religious, as well as apparently racist. The Amarr being prejudiced is a trump card, one that is implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) held over the heads of Amarr RPers. The stated reasoning might be as such "nothing our characters do can be as bad as what yours do and are", but the unstated words behind it are "and you should be ashamed for having those characters, because you support in some way what they do and are".

This is why I have opposed efforts to paint the Caldari as racist, efforts which you have spearheaded, Seriphyn. I remember that you were, not too long ago, trying to portray them as discriminating against the Achura, though that died pretty quick when the info for the Achura and Suvee was updated. The reasoning behind my opposition is not so much that I hate the idea of the Caldari being racist (though I feel there is no more evidence for it than that the Minmatar are, and less evidence than for the Gallente being so), is that I know that branding the Caldari as much gives every Fed RPer the means - which they will undoubtedly take - to condemn me as a person in some way or another for RPing the Caldari.
 

[Silas Vitalia]

Agree 100% with OP, nicely said.

I think it would be more enriching if we had more RPers pushing those non-pc attitudes that correspond with the culture of their characters.

It's been touched on in other discussions, but I would love more outwardly tribal matari, xenophobic Amarr, collectivist Caldari, etc.  The Federation gets a bit of a pass with the PC issue as their culture expresses a huge and vocal range of acceptable moralities and opinions.

[Kybernetes Moros]

Seriphyn did a fairly good job of expressing something that's made me raise an eyebrow a few times in the OP, I think. I'm inclined to link it all to my pet peeve of people trying to tie Faction P to Real-World Culture Q: sure, there may be similarity in some areas, but to call any EVE faction Spess x-[ese | istani | ian | ish] isn't something I really agree with. The factions are their own entities; a portmanteau of various cultures that exist in the real world and other works of fiction, as I see it. YMMV.

Similarly, trying to apply OOC, real-world morality to these doesn't quite gel with it, as far as I can tell. What is acceptable or not varies pretty widely even today from country to country, and then you've the element that while yeah, you can broadly categorise people in New Eden under 'Gallente Federation', 'Minmatar Republic', 'Guristas Pirates', 'Sansha's Nation' and so on, I struggle to imagine there being anything but a vast array of internal cultures, traditions, and what is seen as 'politically correct'.

That's not the same, of course, as saying 'everyone should be comfortable playing every character with every moral compass / sense of what is right and wrong / set of ethics / whatever'. There are a few things that I wouldn't really be happy to play as a character, and I don't see anything wrong with that -- but if whoever else does, fine, go for it. I'm entirely capable of ignoring things, or employing the arcane magic of the block list. I do, however, try to avoid extrapolating people's characters' ethics to their own OOC and don't make any conscious effort to hold a character's factional allegiance over anyone's head on an OOC level. Except when I think it's pretty clear it's not intended seriously. (shutupMarcus >>)

Long story short, yeah, I pretty much agree with the OP; fictional entities with fictional beliefs and ways of making things work (or not work, as the case may be).

[Seriphyn]

This is why I have opposed efforts to paint the Caldari as racist, efforts which you have spearheaded, Seriphyn. I remember that you were, not too long ago, trying to portray them as discriminating against the Achura, though that died pretty quick when the info for the Achura and Suvee was updated. The reasoning behind my opposition is not so much that I hate the idea of the Caldari being racist (though I feel there is no more evidence for it than that the Minmatar are, and less evidence than for the Gallente being so), is that I know that branding the Caldari as much gives every Fed RPer the means - which they will undoubtedly take - to condemn me as a person in some way or another for RPing the Caldari.

I really have not. SERIPHYN has, but I have not. Please don't prescribe IC actions to me, the OOC player. Although do link a relevant post regarding myself painting the Achur as discriminated.

So what if the Caldari are racist? Not even racist, just a general dislike of foreigners, not the belief they are necessarily superior (ie. like the Amarr). Not every nation is going to be happy-clappy, accepting of immigrants, because the Caldari are protective, no?

That is me, the player, using this OOC piece of information to IC call the Caldari racist. I'm not calling YOU racist, but a fictional, make-believe faction. I don't know where "to condemn me as a person" comes from, because this is roleplaying, and the division of IC/OOC is paramount, etc. etc.

[Ulphus]

So, in this sort of morality, it really wouldn't matter if the Minmatar were bloody, vicious, and absolutely depraved savages, because the Amarr are prejudiced and religious, as well as apparently racist. The Amarr being prejudiced is a trump card, one that is implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) held over the heads of Amarr RPers. The stated reasoning might be as such "nothing our characters do can be as bad as what yours do and are", but the unstated words behind it are "and you should be ashamed for having those characters, because you support in some way what they do and are".

Ulf doesn't give a shit about Amarr being prejudiced, he's upset about them being slavers. It's not a historical thing that happened hundreds of years ago, it's going on now.

And when your people are enslaved, being a bit upset about the people who did it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

I mean, heck, ask Ulf when he's in a philosophical mood and he'll tell you that most Matari are prejudiced too, but that for some of their prejudice they have good reasons. All (stay at home) Amarrians benefit from the effects of slavery.

[DosTuMai]

Whether the Gallente are as diverse as they're described, there will be xenophobic people and other kinds of moron hanging about.
Yet even in the more closed minded races - Amarr for example - there could be some of the most open/broad-minded individuals lurking quietly in a corner, hiding from the spotlight of other people that are the 'mode' personality type.

Only time there aren't individuals is when people are programmed to be identical. There are always foibles that come out with people. Little quirks. But this is off topic and I'll be told off for it again.

Well, this as far as I can go before I start encrouching on people's sensitivities, so I'll leave it there.