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[Syylara/Yaansu]

IFC = Idea For Consideration, so feedback and declarations of outrage are expected! :9

Formation:  Initially, the organization that would eventually become an obscure pod-pilot group within Mordu's Legion was a creation of the Caldari House of Records.  A number of programs were put forward to use capsule technology to exponentially increase the efficiency of a myriad of roles in business and bureaucracy.  With clever timing, Modern Finances had proposed subsidizing the project amidst a PR campaign portraying the HoR as inefficient and operating on outdated methods that were costing Caldari citizens their hard earned tax money and pride.

Among the many programs created was one which focused on two-person units which could conduct penetrating investigations independent of the usual enormous support network which one would require.  Leaks in such cases came to a virtual standstill, and is widely believed to have consistently come from the Megacorps and their representatives on the relevant State bodies in question.  However, there were rare cases of units on the take.

Organization: Units consist of two members operating in intelligence-like spook/handler roles.  Tasks could range from long term stake-outs in concealment listening for sensitive communications as evidence in a case involving Megacorps in dispute or uploading facts and figures to parse and report to committee as a briefing for them to consider some policy decision on.  Resource Agents provided supplies and hardware securely and interface with whichever institution had summoned their services by delivering their approved questions.  Their partners, Special Agents did the direct surveillance and delivered the testimony as a mixture between primary witness and electronic surveillance.

Transition:  After the program had been touted an amazing success for the HoR in terms of both efficiency and efficacy, a new tide of opinion was again injected into the public sentiment from Modern Finances obscure media subsidiaries.  This one argued the dangers of the State's most powerful investigative analysts being answerable to the very bodies they were often tasked with reviewing.  In the public sentiment runaway of creating the initial programs, Modern Finances had managed to gain influence with key members of the HoR allowing them to put some favorable terms in place.  They had reserved the right to sell the division to a third party, requiring that entity allow them leaseback with right of first refusal (i.e. only the State can initiate an end to the deal).  With the public behind them, once again (it was argued the instability that potentially loomed would threaten investment security, a common tactic in State politics), Modern Finances sold the organization to Mordu's as this addressed the concern of self-regulation while still in the hands of a State-loyal entity.

The units now spend some time on State duties when requested and the remainder of it performing tasks for other Mordu's operations.

[orange]

Why did you chose the House of Records over the Caldari Business Tribunal?  I have never thought of HoR being an investigative body.

What makes you think Caldari State "citizens" are taxed by the CEP?  Why do the desires of the "public" factor in at all?

What did Modern Finances gain by running a smear campaign against HoR (or CBT) other than the creation of these investigative teams?  This seems counter to Caldari goals of having minimal government oversight of corporate operations.  Was it looking to have its chief competitors Caldari Funds Unlimited & State & Region Bank restricted in some way?  Why would the megacorporations support such restrictions & oversight?

Why would Modern Finances have to go to an obscure media subsidiary when Nugoeihuvi, the State's largest media conglomerate, owns 35% of Modern Finances?

Why would the HoR (or CBT) not contract Corporate Police Force/other Security company teams for investigations?

Can you provide a reference for "looming instability threatening investment security" being a "common tactic in State politics"?

[Vikarion]

Not to be mean, but...the corporations pay for the needed centralized elements of Caldari government, not Caldari citizens, and public opinion isn't typically used as a means of decision in the State. That defeats the whole idea of a meritocracy.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Why did you chose the House of Records over the Caldari Business Tribunal?  I have never thought of HoR being an investigative body.

The units, before they were sold to Mordu's, would usually be put to use for either the CEP, CBT, or upon request by the Megacorporations for internal use, this made the HoR the most neutral-seeming place to park it that is still a State-wide entity and not controlled by a single faction.  The HoR does not have to be an investigative body for investigators and analysts to be among the various services it provides to the other bodies.  As the hearings, panels, briefings, inquiries, commissions, and other various assembled meetings both call upon and establish records (many of which are probably sealed and classified as part of the simultaneously collusive and cut-throat games of power at the top).

Here in America the Congressional Budget Office scores bills and projects their impacts economically in reports for the relevant subcommittees to hear and consider among their decisions to vote yes or no in a similar capacity.

What makes you think Caldari State "citizens" are taxed by the CEP?  Why do the desires of the "public" factor in at all?

Well, is there any relevant official lore that says anything one way or the other if people are taxed in the State?  Why would the corporations pay out of pocket when they could get the public to pay for it while robbing from the purse, as well?

With the exception of the last few years of CPD jingoism, I've never gotten the impression of Caldari society as being so brutally oppressive that public sentiment is considered irrelevant.  Whipping up public outrage is step one in real-life political power-plays as well as getting people so worried about the consequences of not acting, they'll approve of the first plan to come along without taking a very close look.  Maybe a few corporations operate with suffocating jack-booted-thuggery, but I don't think that's the majority experience.

What did Modern Finances gain by running a smear campaign against HoR (or CBT) other than the creation of these investigative teams?

It provided financing to the State which subsidized the program.

Then running another smear campaign to give the same kind of "get the public to demand what we'll benefit from for us" so they could sell the units off.

What does MF gain?

Profits.  This stuff happens in real life government day in and day out.

This seems counter to Caldari goals of having minimal government oversight of corporate operations.  Was it looking to have its chief competitors Caldari Funds Unlimited & State & Region Bank restricted in some way?  Why would the megacorporations support such restrictions & oversight?

What "restrictions" come about as a result of there being some investigators doing investigate-y things?

Oversight can come in the form of investigations to discover if the most profit is being generated possible, rooting out fraudulent waste in the system, getting to the bottom of disputes between corporations, etc.  These units have no authority to establish policies or regulations, they are simply summoned by the bodies who do (which already exist and I'm not interfering with) to offer testimony or expert analysis.

Why would Modern Finances have to go to an obscure media subsidiary when Nugoeihuvi, the State's largest media conglomerate, owns 35% of Modern Finances?

I was using the phrasing to inject the idea of nefarious imagery.  My phrasing doesn't rule out it being Nugoeihuvi.

Of course, if I went ahead and named them specifically, that opens me up to claims that I'm being over-specific and too far-reaching in my claims.  6 of one, half a dozen of the other...damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Why would the HoR (or CBT) not contract Corporate Police Force/other Security company teams for investigations?

Because those groups have a conflict of interest as they are subsidiaries of individual megas, not neutral bodies.

Can you provide a reference for "looming instability threatening investment security" being a "common tactic in State politics"?

No more than you can provide evidence that it isn't.  However, there was http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3746&tid=6 and the entire series that spawned out of that where CFU was looking a bit unstable for a while.  To me, it had undertones of political opportunism at play under the guise of "protecting" the institution that controls so many people's retirement accounts.  Consider what has happened in real life during the same time period that news item came out and tell me it doesn't echo real life.  Also in that same news piece, you'll notice that aside from the CFU, what agency was it that supplied the testimony from an expert analyst about economic models?

That's right, the House of Records.

You ask over and over "where is your proof it works this way".  I've put forward a vision, the only bar I'm concerned with crossing is whether I've contradicted something specific or not.  Beyond that, I am happy to (and ideally prefer to) get feedback and ideas to make the concept stronger, but I'm not going to be set into a chasing my own tail situation because some areas I touched on have no authoritative answer.  If you don't have proof that it works some other way (I want to see it, so I know exactly how far what I've tripped over reaches out and thus what extent the changes I am perfectly willing to make are :9), then I'm not wasting the grey matter to reconcile an issue that neither of us could definitively prove to the other.  I'm not of a mind to remain silent where the lore is silent, only on not directly contradicting it.  Otherwise, if that standard were applied universally you may as well call it the "never create anything interesting of your own ever again" clause.

Not to be mean, but...the corporations pay for the needed centralized elements of Caldari government, not Caldari citizens, and public opinion isn't typically used as a means of decision in the State. That defeats the whole idea of a meritocracy.

Is it established somewhere that the megas shell out the cash for the central gov't bodies?  I'd think the last thing a shrewdly uber-capitalist corporation would do is pay for things itself when it could just pass the cost along to the consumer-sheeple :9.

Keep in mind I didn't specify if it was income tax, property tax, sales tax, etc.

Public opinion is required to move institutions of power or at least provide them political cover which is why outrages are constantly manufactured against "negatively portrayed social ill x" just before a big vote is due.

Tibus Heth wants a tighter grip, he doesn't make a speech where he publicly rolls out a new secret police program, he starts making statements about how Caldari pride has been insulted by something-something, public sentiment does the rest.

I've often gotten the impression that meritocracy is just a cultural zeitgeist to rationalize activity the public might question, something the megas pay lip service to but only as a facade.  It is one of their puppet-strings, as it were.

Also, keep in mind I have no further intentions with this than as backstory.  Its possible I might eventually someday write a story involving some of their day-to-day from that period, but it wouldn't imply any deeper level of conspiracy weaving than things we know happen in our congresses around the world all the time with sham "hearings" and "investigations" that are often more about posturing than results.  I'm not going to be releasing leaks of investigations going on currently or anything like that.  I have referred to my extended absence as Syyl and Yaan having taken part in some things going on in the State, but that's classified and will never be ICly spoken of :9 or even clarified any further than that hazy statement.

Their moments of creation, to me, represent when Mordu's finally acquiesced to their increasingly frequent requests to be re-stationed as the State descended into a semi-despotic situation.  This provided the "turn in the wind" that I launched their arcs from and gives me safe distance.  I also think the Provists probably would have increasingly wanted its own investigators.  By the time they were ripping into the management, the CBT was the one baying for blood, then later when they were going after a corporate board member, it was Provists/CPD.  I've thought of them maybe having a few 15 minutes of fame moments of positive connection with at least the political wonks of the public shaping a positive image of impartiality and clarity of revelation (sometimes to one or more of the investigative body's own members aggravation).  But the impulse driving that is going to take better form in my next stew that is cooking.

Any C.J. Cregg (The West Wing) fans? :9

[Vikarion]

I could go back and look, but since this is only backstory...anyway, I recall reading that the CEP and other government agencies are funded by the mega-corps to handle extra-corporate problems (criminal cases and so forth being typically handled in house).

As regards the meritocracy being just a facade - that is directly contradicted, both in TBL, and by the inferences made since TEA in many of CCP's articles and Chrons, especially ones such as "Tomorrow a Dream". Trying to take away the idea of merit-based advancement being an actuality in the State rips out the heart of Caldari RP. You might as well, in terms of how it affects the RP, decide to portray the CEP as a massive central government, or claim that Caldari society is communist. The whole reason Tibus Heth was successful is because the Mega's started to move away from meritocracy.

As for the investigative side of things...keep in mind that most of the corps aren't going to care what you turn up. They only care if you can prove that they are violating inter-corp law, make the other megas care about it, and then convince the corporate court to intervene. State law basically exists to keep any of the megas from getting too frisky with corp war or human rights, not to keep them from, say, developing weapons of mass destruction for sale. For the most part, Caldari State government mainly exists to solve disputes, not come up with them.

Now, that's not to say the House of Records wouldn't try to do as you suggest. But at whose behest would they do it? Remember that you're always going to be stepping on someone's toes if you are an investigative unit, and those people aren't going to see you as an independent representative of the law so much as an obstacle. In other words, HoR has to have some really good reasons as to why you should exist, because the moment a majority of the Megas decide you shouldn't, you're out of a job.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

First: some catching up on our apparently similar habit of ocd editing and re-editing :9.

I could go back and look, but since this is only backstory...anyway, I recall reading that the CEP and other government agencies are funded by the mega-corps to handle extra-corporate problems (criminal cases and so forth being typically handled in house).

"Funded by the mega-corps" is ambiguous.  I'm quite understanding in the sense that the central bodies aren't the ones who would be levying any taxes.  The individual member-states still could (as well as import/export tariffs).  The only thing we can't really seem to pin down is if they actually use direct payroll/property/sales taxes and tariffs or just build the cost of providing public services (and supporting a small share of the central bodies) into everything else they do.  I just think it would seem hard for them to be competitive with the rest of the cluster if they weren't sucking their constituents dry like every good government does :9.  How does a business take on all of the costs of providing basic public services and not have products that cost 5x everyone elses?

As for the investigative side of things...keep in mind that most of the corps aren't going to care what you turn up. They only care if you can prove that they are violating inter-corp law, make the other megas care about it, and then convince the corporate court to intervene. State law basically exists to keep any of the megas from getting too frisky with corp war or human rights, not to keep them from, say, developing weapons of mass destruction for sale. For the most part, Caldari State government mainly exists to solve disputes, not come up with them.

Now, that's not to say the House of Records wouldn't try to do as you suggest. But at whose behest would they do it? Remember that you're always going to be stepping on someone's toes if you are an investigative unit, and those people aren't going to see you as an independent representative of the law so much as an obstacle. In other words, HoR has to have some really good reasons as to why you should exist, because the moment a majority of the Megas decide you shouldn't, you're out of a job.

As I said, they offer expert testimony to the CEP when they are considering some matter of policy, gather and report evidence to the CBT for dispute resolutions or (similar to CEP briefings) on potential far-reaching consequences of their possible rulings, and also available for the megas to do internal operations to remove corruption and fraud (ideally, anyways).  I don't care that a lot of it wouldn't have much real impact, I almost like the idea of it being mostly about optics and "look how your megacorp reps put together a program to protect our citizens from waste and inefficiency."  The original write-up I made on chatsubo even made a point of their growing bored at the endless parade of investigations that were more about showing no wrong-doing than revealing scandals.

As I doubt CCP is going to put an article out where the megas dismiss the Mordu's-owned capsuleer units the HoR is leasing for investigative support, I feel confident in my (virtual) job security, atm :9.

[Vikarion]

To an extent, there's always an element of hypocrisy in any society. But the revolt actually was about exactly that "glass ceiling". It wasn't that people couldn't get middle-management jobs - it was that nepotism and cronyism were beginning to take hold.

Now compare that with how the Caldari structure things in such Chrons as "The Ever-Turning Wheels", and TBL. CCP makes a real effort to show that things have changed - and that such changes aren't necessarily "nice". But they are efficient.

And that's realistic. Capitalism works best with the best people elevated to the top, and that is one of the tenets of Caldari RP. Take that away, and you basically have a somewhat less centralized Federation with blocky ships.

It also doesn't make sense: Caldari corporations are hyper-capitalistic, and if a corporation falls behind, the others will eat it for lunch. Remember, most of Caldari corporate society is composed of smaller corps that are holdings of larger corps, and so on and so forth up to the Megas. If a Mega starts falling behind, the others will rapidly snap up its holdings and assets until they can make a takeover bid on the Mega itself. Trust me, Lai Dai would love to do that to SuVee.

Lastly, if one wants to play with a "corrupt" corporate system, with cronyism and nepotism, that's the Federation, as has been made clear from a variety of Chrons (that's not saying that the government is corrupt, necessarily). We don't need copies - the State doesn't need to be corrupt for it to be interesting. Do the people in power strive to hold on to it? Certainly - but by being the best ones for the job.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Touche'

That one is going to simmer upstairs for a little while, many thanks for the insightful glimpse :9.

[Vikarion]

Touche'

That one is going to simmer upstairs for a little while, many thanks for the insightful glimpse :9.

Of course, and I'd love to talk to you about it if you ever want to, as well. Also, something I found enormously useful was this:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_Dialogues

I don't agree with everything there, but it's very useful. In addition, if you have a little money, I suggest buying the book "Corporate Shadowfiles", (part of the Shadowrun RPG) as it really is a good read and is one of those resources that tends to inspire (I bought it although I've never played Shadowrun, and probably never will). If you don't insist on a new copy, you can get it quite cheap. Keep in mind that the State is less dystopian than the universe of Shadowrun.

[orange]

Keep in mind that the State's government is very, very different from modern US government and has much more in common with the US government of pre-1789 under the Articles of Confederation.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

To an extent, there's always an element of hypocrisy in any society. But the revolt actually was about exactly that "glass ceiling". It wasn't that people couldn't get middle-management jobs - it was that nepotism and cronyism were beginning to take hold.

Now compare that with how the Caldari structure things in such Chrons as "The Ever-Turning Wheels", and TBL. CCP makes a real effort to show that things have changed - and that such changes aren't necessarily "nice". But they are efficient.

I am in agreement with the recent situation being a new turn of events, and have said so many times.  Though I see a bit less pure intentions from the core of the Provists (just replacing cronyism and waste with false patriotism and bigotry).

And that's realistic. Capitalism works best with the best people elevated to the top, and that is one of the tenets of Caldari RP. Take that away, and you basically have a somewhat less centralized Federation with blocky ships.

Yes, it would work best that way, but it doesn't work that way in practice.  Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, lots of them are fantastic on paper, bold social contracts, orderly systems of just governance laid out in reams of papered detail.

But in practice they all bog down the exact same reason a lot of systems do: due to savage human nature.

It also doesn't make sense: Caldari corporations are hyper-capitalistic, and if a corporation falls behind, the others will eat it for lunch. Remember, most of Caldari corporate society is composed of smaller corps that are holdings of larger corps, and so on and so forth up to the Megas. If a Mega starts falling behind, the others will rapidly snap up its holdings and assets until they can make a takeover bid on the Mega itself. Trust me, Lai Dai would love to do that to SuVee.

I get that, but (at least, again, during the years corruption was really getting bad) there is often some collusion that "we're still going to fight over the pie, but only after we cooperate to make sure that we're fighting over 90% of it just among ourselves".

Lastly, if one wants to play with a "corrupt" corporate system, with cronyism and nepotism, that's the Federation, as has been made clear from a variety of Chrons (that's not saying that the government is corrupt, necessarily). We don't need copies - the State doesn't need to be corrupt for it to be interesting. Do the people in power strive to hold on to it? Certainly - but by being the best ones for the job.

No, Syyl's only outbursts against the State on public record are on the issues of member-state sovereignty (Hyasyoda's employee seized by Provists) and the overall cultural mood of amplified fear and ignorance.

As with most things, I think we're already in 98% agreement.  I made an update off of your updates a few posts back, as well.  Stuff like taxes or not don't really impact whether the story stick together, it is still "the money that is purportedly being spent on social services and public programs or not" that is conceptualized as being intended for community welfare.