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Author Topic: Good guys and bad guys  (Read 8820 times)

Casiella

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Good guys and bad guys
« on: 11 Nov 2010, 16:07 »

Nobody believes they're truly evil. They may recognize they're doing some harsh things, but at most they'll see it as necessary actions in service of a higher good. In the case of RP, however, we as players may recognize that our characters do evil. (Whether they are evil is a deeper question.)

So what do you enjoy playing? Characters you see as essentially good (if imperfect), or as essentially bad (if self-justified)? What tips do you have for the latter, more challenging character types?
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #1 on: 11 Nov 2010, 19:51 »

I love playing villains.

Although I personally don't believe in "evil," as a concept (I'm with Kurt Vonnegut on the subject of human nature), I do believe in destructive thought patterns and the vast power of the human brain to do itself (and those around it) a mischief. People can rationalize in amazingly sophisticated ways, and our moral barriers are subject to change with sufficient application of logic.

That being the case, I tend to play highly intellectual forms of "evil," the sort that get around their moral qualms by reasoning them away rather than by ignoring the issue. It's an approach I'd suggest to anyone who is interested in investigating how intelligent, introspective people we would normally view as "corrupt" think.


Examples of this character type within Eve:

* A conservative Amarrian cleric, deeply knowledgeable, who believes the Minmatar as a people have forfeited their place in God's kingdom through rebellion, and must therefore be destroyed.

* A bookish Sani Sabik nihilist (of Nietzsche's school), who genuinely believes that "life itself is the will to power; nothing else matters," and seeks to expand his own power by any means available.

* An Equilibrium of Mankind member who looks on humanity as a plague, not just to the universe, but to itself, as well, and, seeing suffering as endemic to humanity, seeks to end it-- by ending the human race.


Suggestions for those who want to try this:


* Figure out your own more absolute barriers and work within them.

Constantly fighting the part of your brain that screams "NO!" every time you make a choice as your character is tiring and not much fun. I, personally, find it easier to callously blow up ten thousand fictitious people than I find it to be an inconsiderate jerk to just one, so my characters tend to be very polite monsters.


* Work out, in detail, where your character is coming from.

The fun part of playing an intellectual villain is getting down the twisted or subverted worldview. Religious fundamentalism is a highly-workable angle, as is jaded nihilism. Moral relativism can also lead to some fun places if you can work out an argument for why your own "relative" place calls for different morality from everybody else's.


* Don't try for perfection.

Getting in philosophical arguments is a "perk" of this approach. During the course of these, you will make mistakes. Unless your character is a megalomaniac, it will work to your advantage to admit to these, adjust your argument accordingly, and move on. Your character's worldview should be flexible enough to let you do this. Inflexible zealotry is for callous badasses and raving cultists, not thoughtful, sophisticated monsters.


*Corrupt, twist, distort, and corrupt some more.

A hallmark of this kind of character is that she thinks-- is downright convinced-- that she's right. This isn't the sort of "being convinced" that leads to unquestioningly following orders: the orders will be, all within the space of a breath, mentally questioned, found to be valid (or not), and followed (or not). The kind of character who does that will likely try to bring others around to her own point of view. After all, if they only understood, they'd see the truth in her words and join her.

Watch for opportunities. Plant seeds of doubt (or at least curiosity) in the minds of "younger" pilots and try to intercede when a more experienced one is experiencing a crisis. There's nothing like "counseling" a soul in torment to bring another believer to your side.


* Don't lie unless it's important.

Again, your character acts as she does because she has thought it all over and thinks she's come to the right conclusion. Such a character might not have many qualms about telling lies, but telling lies makes people less likely to trust her in the future. If she's going to spread that truth, it will be important for her to be trusted.


* Allow for growth, even redemption.

Playing a character functionally damned by her own logic is a blast, and watching people trying to navigate the maze to lead you back out is one of this angle's greater pleasures. However, if there is no way through at all, this will eventually get boring, with the character stuck in stasis. Change and redemption should be possible, but the "savior" should have to be an ace at getting between other people's ears to pull it off.

Intellectualizing a moral issue away is necessarily a process of rationalization, which serves as a shield against the parts of the brain that keep right on screaming "NO!" ... Unless the character is a psychopath, in which case, there's no "screaming bit" to shield. If there's anything there that can be "saved," there should be some key, some way to get through to the character.

This should by no means be easy (such characters should roll their eyes at almost any form of emotional appeal), and redemption need not be permanent.

Backsliding is fun, too.
« Last Edit: 11 Nov 2010, 20:16 by Aria Jenneth »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #2 on: 11 Nov 2010, 20:29 »

Quote
Nobody believes they're truly evil. They may recognize they're doing some harsh things, but at most they'll see it as necessary actions in service of a higher good.

Actually, at least in Nikita's case, she's aware that she's evil, and she's revels in it. Then again, she's rather mentally unbalanced :P


also, I totally agree with what Aria said, and yes, I love playing a villain, and its really good advice. 

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Casiella

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #3 on: 11 Nov 2010, 20:36 »

(Aria rawks.)
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Random Lost Soul

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #4 on: 11 Nov 2010, 20:36 »

People do things that are "wrong" all the time.  They often know they are wrong when they are doing them.  Why do they do them?  Because they think they can get away with it, or they don't care if they get caught.  Some think that "might makes right".  Take what you can, give nothing back.

Are they justified?  Are the self-justifying?  Are they right or wrong?  What if they just don't care?

Too much black and white, too much following of a script/character sheet, and believability goes out the window.  Sometimes people do what they do not for some ideal, but because it's an option, and they have something to gain from it.  Just one sip, just one touch, just one snort....

Of course that dovetails into the whole idea of moral decline, but then again no one stays the same forever.  Don't be afraid of change.  The noble Paladin sees that he's been deceived by a corrupt faith, just as the pirate may decide to change his ways in order to fight for some greater goal (not necessarily good, mind you.  :bear: ).

OH, and Aria:

Quote
*Corrupt, twist, distort, and corrupt some more.

A hallmark of this kind of character is that she thinks-- is downright convinced-- that she's right. This isn't the sort of "being convinced" that leads to unquestioningly following orders: the orders will be, all within the space of a breath, mentally questioned, found to be valid (or not), and followed (or not). The kind of character who does that will likely try to bring others around to her own point of view. After all, if they only understood, they'd see the truth in her words and join her.

Watch for opportunities. Plant seeds of doubt (or at least curiosity) in the minds of "younger" pilots and try to intercede when a more experienced one is experiencing a crisis. There's nothing like "counseling" a soul in torment to bring another believer to your side.

SHHHH!  That's like the biggest secret ever!  And yes, I agree with you 100% on your points. :)  Though, I always think that what Logic can do for the human psyche, complete ignorance of it's use can be just as destructive.
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Inara Subaka

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #5 on: 12 Nov 2010, 01:14 »

Well, I think 'good and bad' are definitely matters of perspective in the EVE universe. If for no other reason than all of the factions would be 'bad' by modern definitions; but mostly because of the morality that CCP established as existing in the :grimdark: universe of EVE, it's hard to say someone is "good" or "bad" with the code that's established.

Inara would never consider herself 'evil'. She'd say some of the things she's done could be considered evil, but necessary for protecting and providing for what she'd call "me and mine".

So what do you enjoy playing?

Actually, Inara is the first 'manipulator' I've ever played. And it's rather fun. Typically, I play the "quiet powerhouse" (reclusive sorcerer with a penchant for evocation, strong/silent fighter with big stick, etc...).

Characters you see as essentially good (if imperfect), or as essentially bad (if self-justified)?

Well, from the character's perspective I play essentially good. From an OOC perspective, that's up for debate on a per character basis. I tend to lean towards neutral to good characters (on Good/Evil axis).

Inara is what I'd call essentially neutral; she's not going to win any OOC paladin awards, but she's not out to burn the world either. Her reasoning makes her actions (within the EVE universe set of morality) not "evil" but they aren't enough reason to call her actions "good" either.

What tips do you have for the latter, more challenging character types?

Tips for the "essentially bad" character, the number one most important rule: Your character thinks they are good (most of the time) and the "good guys" are the "bad guys". The exception to this rule is people like The Operative from the movie Serenity, he was a "bad guy" so the "good guys" could have their happy world and continue to be "good guys".

Other than that, the only real thing people need to remember is that you character, even as a bad guy, is still going to have a fairly "normal" set of desires out of life. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you want to kick babies and eat eyeballs and take over the world with fire. Most evil people want a family, kids, a house, good job, etc... just like the "good guys" do. They just might go about getting those things differently.
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Invelious

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #6 on: 12 Nov 2010, 07:48 »

IMO, if you look at every capsuleer, no matter what their perspective is, or faction they work for is evil. Abominations to humanity. Almost 100% of the time, everything we they do causes death en mass. That to me is evil.
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Milo Caman

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #7 on: 12 Nov 2010, 08:21 »

IMO, if you look at every capsuleer, no matter what their perspective is, or faction they work for is evil. Abominations to humanity. Almost 100% of the time, everything we they do causes death en mass. That to me is evil.

There is no good or evil, only differing degrees of villainy.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #8 on: 12 Nov 2010, 10:53 »

Whether Esna is evil or not heavily depends on your view: He sees himself as Chaotic Good, using his influence as a capsuleer to force change for the better. From my OOC viewpoint, I'd call him (at best) Chaotic Neutral - yes, he is working for good, but he's breaking a lot of eggs to make that omelet. Furthermore, he freely admits that he likes fighting, and would still love it if it was for a "wrong" cause - he just tries to pick his fights carefully.
From the perspective of someone who really hates slavery, though, I could see how Esna could represent Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil in that he is attempting to extend something truly evil (slavery). Personally, neither I OOC or Esna IC believe this makes him evil, as Esna's interpretation of "slavery" really stretches the definition of the word; if I were to walk up to someone and explain it without the word "slavery" being used, I don't think people would consider it evil - as soon as the concept of slavery comes into play IC though, it evokes a whole different interpretation from people he is talking to.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Seriphyn

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #9 on: 12 Nov 2010, 12:49 »

Hm, I can't answer this without feeling sufficiently Mary Sue, Gary Stu or Angsty Sue...something like that.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #10 on: 12 Nov 2010, 12:59 »

So what do you enjoy playing? Characters you see as essentially good (if imperfect), or as essentially bad (if self-justified)? What tips do you have for the latter, more challenging character types?
In RPGs, I often like playing characters with worldviews or values that in some significant respect differ from my own. I pick things that I feel that I don't understand why people support them, and then try and make a character who is not evil or stupid, but still subscribes to those ideas. Else is an experiment in extreme patriotism and sentiments that I'd call nepotism. Other characters I currently play in pen&paper are developed around e.g. a belief of personal loyalty to someone even when you see he is immoral, and militant religions.

I think it has had a significant impact on me as a person to understand on an emotional/experience level that RPGs can provide how people can arrive on values that to me seem bizarre or wrong, and justify to themselves acts I clearly consider evil, without actually at any point being clearly intellectually dishonest or stupid or, well, evil.
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Inara Subaka

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #11 on: 12 Nov 2010, 14:23 »

In RPGs, I often like playing characters with worldviews or values that in some significant respect differ from my own. I pick things that I feel that I don't understand why people support them, and then try and make a character who is not evil or stupid, but still subscribes to those ideas. Else is an experiment in extreme patriotism and sentiments that I'd call nepotism. Other characters I currently play in pen&paper are developed around e.g. a belief of personal loyalty to someone even when you see he is immoral, and militant religions.

This is actually the reason I created Inara the way she is. To allow myself to try and view things from a vastly differing perspective than my own.

Inara is very strict in following her rules and code of conduct, where I'm a lot more 'meh' and adjust to situations fluidly. There are a few things that Inara (the character) and I have in common, but that's mostly because there are only so many changes to my own personality that I can take on at one time for a character.

From my perspective, if I ever "met" her, I'd say Inara is an evil b****. But, when I'm playing her, I have to remember that from her perspective (and several people that interact with her) she's far from evil. Again, that is due to PoV.
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hellgremlin

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #12 on: 13 Nov 2010, 08:21 »

My character's ultimate justification is that he knows the world is ending, and wants to amass enough wealth and power to ride out ragnarok in a gold-plated, ruby-encrusted, invincible, wormhole-hopping space casino... staffed by exotic dancers... with a lifetime supply of crash and overdose-clones in the hold. Screw everyone who gets in the way, only his friends and dog get to come along. He's been manipulated once and learned well from the experience. Now he's out to do a little manipulating of his own to get ahead. He'll always be on the winning side, or try to be. That includes allying with the bad guys if they look like they have the upper hand  :yar:

It's actually almost weird and prophetic, looking at my old fiction from the beta era and comparing it to events today. People being manipulated by things that live in wormhole space. Strange corporations full of controlled New Eden citizens committing atrocities and building stargates that link to nowhere. I should start writing again.
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Random Lost Soul

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #13 on: 13 Nov 2010, 11:26 »

I should start writing again.
GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!  More fiction please. :D

Also, Istvaan is now my hero.  Casino ship full of exotic dancers?  Yes please!  Now that's villainy!
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Ken

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #14 on: 13 Nov 2010, 11:30 »

Istvaan = grimdark Moses?
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