Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Vikarion]

Soooo...I was actually rather enjoying the argument, at least until some people forgot the rules.

Should I try again, or forget it?

[Morwen Lagann]

If you do, give it a few days first. Let us addicts get our EVE fix first.

Damn extended patch-day downtimes.

[Eran Mintor]

I was enjoying the discussion too till I apparently hurt someones feelings. But please continue and I'll STFU and just listen this time.

[Silver Night]

You can try again, if you would like, of course.

but, modhat:

[mod]I would urge everyone to review the Rules, FAQ, and even use the Catacombs as a resource to see the kind of things that are considered unacceptable (and why) before posting.In general: Flames, insults, flame-bait, and things that just say someone else is 'doing it wrong', stating your own opinions as fact, assigning motives to other players, etc. Disagreeing is fine, but please make it constructive.I, and I think the rest of the mods, realize this is a 'hot-button' issue, and people do have strong feelings about it. The rules of the forum still apply, however. [/mod]

[Eran Mintor]

I'm really not in the mood for what you assume is a flame. I stated very clearly that I was trying to be civil, and yet you think I was flaming Jade. My question is why?


Anyways, this was the question :

I would like to hear what people's boundaries are between IC and OOC as this has come up (apparantly not for the first time).

I will start.

If someone says it's OOC knowledge, you are not to use it in RP without explicit permission. Otherwise, if someone RP's or plays a certain character in a corp, etc., it's IC knowledge.

[Silver Night]

[mod]I can go through and post what the issues were in your posts specifically, Eran, if you want. I didn't because there were a lot of issues in that thread in general, but I understand that can make it unclear why something was modded, or even if it was the intended target of moderation (which is why we generally take out only the offending posts. There were just a lot of issues in this particular thread).We always appreciate when people try to be civil, and I think we are all aware that it isn't always easy.I think Morwen's suggestion of letting people cool down a bit before taking another try at the topic in a more general way is a good one.[/mod]

[scagga]

Gonna have to ask the mods be less efficient once more. All the juicy threads are locked by the time I get home from work...

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Gonna have to ask the mods be less efficient once more. All the juicy threads are locked by the time I get home from work...

I have to admit I felt the same. I do understand the mod decision though. I think it sounds like a good idea to wait a bit till people calm down and then retry the IC/OOC divide thing.

[Graanvlokkie]

Gonna have to ask the mods be less efficient once more. All the juicy threads are locked by the time I get home from work...

I gave up half way in the thread. When you get the message that while you were typing your reply 6 new posts were made you know its time to give up.

On topic, I think it was one of the more civil threads I have read regarding that specific topic.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Unfortunately, I'd liked to have shared my opinions on this as well, but agree that the thread needed to be locked as it wasn't so much rolling as avalanching downhill.

Given time, I'd very much like to see a more reasoned, slower-paced (if such a thing as possible) and far more polite discussion of this, as it's something the community obviously has very heavy opinions on this, and discussions simply getting stomped out before they can be fully talked over isn't going to help the situation either.

[Vincent Pryce]

[scagga]

Unfortunately, I'd liked to have shared my opinions on this as well, but agree that the thread needed to be locked as it wasn't so much rolling as avalanching downhill.

Given time, I'd very much like to see a more reasoned, slower-paced (if such a thing as possible) and far more polite discussion of this, as it's something the community obviously has very heavy opinions on this, and discussions simply getting stomped out before they can be fully talked over isn't going to help the situation either.

I appreciate what you are saying, and think it is accurate of the situation.  I would propose that moderators use the moderating equivalent of a M65 Recoiless Nuclear Rifle on inappropriate posts a bit more before locking the thread...alternatively:

Other options to consider with/or above to control such a discussion:

- Lock and reopen thread after 30 minutes for enforced 'time out', at increasing increments if necessary. This calms the discussion and gives people more time to think before posting.  I think it sends the message that the discourse is at variance with desired quality more strongly.

- Consider temporarily excluding those who cannot control their passions, which can be done in writing and penalties enforced if those excluded make posts (e.g. selectively removing their access to a forum section for a period of time).

My observation is that the backstage community bears a kind of unwarranted collective punishment in such cases.  I think that the penalties should focus on selectively pressuring offenders.

[Valdezi]

I  think that the thread being locked was inevitable, and if the consensus is that this was one of the more civil threads on the topic, then I'm glad I've avoided other discussions on the issue.

I think one of the mods being told to fuck themselves for no reason was the real low point.

[Casiella]

I recused myself from moderating this particular issue, but I totally supported what the mods in question had to do.

At the same time, I'd like to see reasoned discussion of the issues without devolving into "OMG $PLAYER IS A @#%$!" This discussion may need to occur in the future, perhaps, but I'd like to think that the sort of environment that Backstage promotes can host such a discussion.

We frequently need to remember that the purpose of an exchange of views ultimately will be understanding, rarely conversion. That goes double between the individuals in the conversation.

[Ciarente]

I appreciate the suggestions, Scagga. I do think that pre-emptively excluding anyone from talking about a specific topic is a bit problematic.

We do try to use 'snip' editing where it's, well, basically feasible. When a thread reaches a stage where 90% of the posts in it have been reported by someone for something, a portions of those posts are inappropriate in their entirety, and most of the others refer to those posts ... 'snip' editing does become a herculean task and when the end result is likely to look like a smattering of posts that no longer make sense without context and a smattering of others reduced to a patchwork of sentences, locking the thread and moving the whole thing becomes really the only practical option.  

I'm also, personally, beginning to agree a little with a view expressed in the early discussion of these forums about 'snip' moderation: knowing that a mod will edit your post to remove the insults, flames and trolling but leave the rest intact removes incentive to self moderate and exercise a little common sense. It actually takes a lot less time to read through a post you've composed and delete things than it does for a mod to carefully, in the interests of transparency, move each offensive sentence to the catacombs. So every over-the-line post is, in a way, a statement to the moderators that 'hey, your time is worth about 1/5 of mine!'.

Time out locks have been used in the past, and are of varying popularity: I got five PMs in a minute after locking a thread for a 'time out', and the opinion was firmly expressed that posters felt they had been sent to the 'naughty chair'. I note too that a mod posted in the thread earlish on, with mod hat on, pointing out the potential for the whole thing to go pearshaped downhill without a canoe or whatever, and some posters expressed a sense of grievance at the intervention.

I'd also like to point out, as a general observation, that moderators have a lot more difficulty 'cleaning' and 'pruning' a thread when people respond to flames or to flamebait. Just report the post, and if a mod isn't there to deal with it right that second, take a deep breath and give yourself a cooldown period.