Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lyn Farel on 03 Dec 2013, 14:41
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Well, firstly this is not intended as a YDIW. I would like to discuss about it instead and have a constructive view of the subject. I am not totally sure what to think of it yet.
As I said in the other post, I have stumbled upon people using the scify idea that memories can be downloaded, implanted, erased, tampered with like you do with a piece of software. Since wetware stuff and genetics are something central to the science RP thing of my character (tied to the transhumanism themes of Eve), I was rather directly concerned. So i am rather mitigated on that concept :
+ It's a very nice idea, full of opportunities for RP, and it introduces a nice dystopian mechanism directly dealing with the brain and the true essence of a person.
- The main issue i'm facing atm is that I feel like stripped of a part of the RP of my own faction. SoCT made skillbooks and capsuleer learning as well as capsule interfaces (the latter as shown in that old obscure piece of news when HACs were introduced). Those are expensive and unaffordable for most baseliners, and yet it was told that a derived tech suddenly was accessible to every junkie that wanted his "memory trip fix". It deals on the same level since it's basically about inserting memory stuff into someone else memory. And the other thing that closely deals with memory is... cloning, which is even more expensive and non accessible.
I came to the thought that memory transfers might be somewhat less complex since it's basically just declarative memory, data, meaning emotions, visuals, sensations, etc, where skillbooks are actually teaching you stuff, and cloning copies a whole brain pattern.
Though i'm not sure where to draw the limit ? Does that sound godmoddy ? Not sure myself, probably not. It's really interesting, but at the same time I feel like the kind of things that is supposed to be a very specific SoCT RP matter is being trivialized. It would be like if everyone not caldari suddenly started to use Napanii.
Am I overreacting ? That's possible, because I really find the subject interesting.
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Sounds reasonable to me. I think the learning skillbooks are still in the system, just removed from markets and replaced with other things in the game. So maybe Gogela's site offers links to them.
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I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing ? :eek:
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Well there is a teeny bit of god moddery snowflake fuckery (wee! fuckery!) in Arista's background that involves this, and I used it to explain why the hell she knew so much about EVE already that she knew about flying in low security space without ever actually being taught all those cool tricks, her associations with certain pilots which make no sense ICly (when I was trying to get Mirage to RP initially), her IC knowledge of pirate organizations ICly she had connections with, etc. -- because I do certain things particualrly hardcore, and if Arista had no experience flying in low, then she had none. Oooh, but my OLD CHARACTER did, and she was biomassed. Hmm. My lack of feeling like wasting ISK on blowing myself up because no one taught celestial bouncing to this little Khanid ICly led to some backstory crap. That was about the whole of it and certainly isn't focal to her as a character.
So, it rarely comes up anymore, but did involve "skillbooks", or at least that kind of tech - ie it was done on a Capsuleer/cloning level, as opposed to some back room MIB thing that blows out half the powergrid to erase a 'flashything' memory change. Also the people who did it are "over there" (background people who will likely never show up in the foreground, generic Shadow Organization Cartel Inc #4927 who pulled it off, of course for ISK). It also didn't ALTER any memories via Total Recall or anything.
So is that the question - ie. how "trivialised" is memory, or how easily is it to replicate false ones in EVE (Total Recall, Bladerunner clones, "I've seen things.." etc)?
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Don't we do this already via soft clones? :eek:
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True
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Don't we do this already via soft clones? :eek:
Well. Some of us do, despite the best efforts of some people at CCP to tell us it isn't legit. But that may not be the best debate to get into here (partly because there are other threads on it, and partly because it is a seriously touchy subject for some people, like me).
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Don't we do this already via soft clones? :eek:
Well. Some of us do, despite the best efforts of some people at CCP to tell us it isn't legit. But that may not be the best debate to get into here (partly because there are other threads on it, and partly because it is a seriously touchy subject for some people, like me).
Might want to double check this but I could have sworn it's been mentioned in chronicles before. :\
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I thought a bit more about this and I don't think it is like cloning (hard or soft). Cloning in the traditional CCP sense means that you need a blank brain adapted to the individual if wealthy, and generic (which can even go to animal biomass instead of human) if not wealthy. Then it prints the infomorph data right into it.
With those facts in mind, it is highly speculative that you can erase or replace a memory with another, much like you can not burn a CD image on a CD that is not rewrittable. Is memory rewrittable with the current Eve tech ? Perhaps. And then, memory tampering and partial downloads / injections is even more tricky since it's a lot more complicated than just copying the whole...
Which is what skillbooks do. And that makes me believe that capsuleer skillbooks are pieces of highly advanced tech that is probably a lot more complex than the infomorph transfer happening in the cloning process, which also explains the time it takes, considering that PF states that hard cloning has to instantly scan the brain and thus, damages it irreparably. Where skillbooks can't allow that, unlike hard cloning. The high technology included in cloning probably happens elsewhere, like in the genetic and bio engineering happening to sculpt the body out of cadavers.
That way I see 3 different things :
- Hard cloning (PF) : breach in the capsule, or jump cloning, using the exact same tech apparently but leads to inconsistencies like "how the hell do they extract the implants of the former body ?". The infomorph is transferred into a blank new body ready for him, fit to him with his own DNA and bioprints.
- Soft cloning (non PF) : scanning a brain without killing the patient, which probably requires a lot of time with a slow process and different technology. In any case, either the recipient new body is already implanted with the backup saved infomorph but put in coma, either the recipient body is like for hardcloning, which is blank, and ready to accept the backup infomorph that is stored in the meantime in a data state drive in the meantime. (I prefer the latter solution, which is less derpy / dangerous regarding PF) In any case, soft cloning can already be considered as death of the individual since the consciousness string is discontinuous and broken, thus another stream awakens, not strictly the same individual.
- Skillbooks (PF) : no brain scanning to inject it into another blank brain here. It's very specific data implanted into a living brain pattern through implant procedures. It is also not only data (explicit declarative memory) but also and most of all skill learning itself (implicit procedural memory). Where cloning involves copying a pattern where you don't need to understand how the pattern work, you just have to copy paste it and care about the recipient functionality, skillbook learning actually imply also understanding how the data transferred actually works, added to knowing how acting on the procedural memory itself which is probably a lot more complicated than just memory declarative data.
So yeah, i'm still a little bit uneasy about this being suddenly widespread tech used by new eden nerds to get their memory fix...
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It hasn't been mentioned in chronicles explicitly but its existence is implied.
Softcloning was part of the original version of the cloning page on the lore portal. It was removed about a year ago and replaced with a variety of nonsense that basically equates to "lol, RPers are all retarded suicidal derps for ever leaving their pods to pee, EVEN ONCE". And then their explanation for jump clones flies entirely in the face of game mechanics, and in the wrong direction (seriously, they pull out your implants and put them into another body).
As far as RP goes, it's typically used as an anti-godmoding RP device. "Alright, fine, you detonated this bomb in the bar and killed a couple of us; we'll just use a backup from a few days/weeks ago and move along because fuck you, assbag, I am not biomassing."
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It hasn't been mentioned in chronicles explicitly but its existence is implied.
Softcloning was part of the original version of the cloning page on the lore portal. It was removed about a year ago and replaced with a variety of nonsense that basically equates to "lol, RPers are all retarded suicidal derps for ever leaving their pods to pee, EVEN ONCE". And then their explanation for jump clones flies entirely in the face of game mechanics, and in the wrong direction (seriously, they pull out your implants and put them into another body).
As far as RP goes, it's typically used as an anti-godmoding RP device. "Alright, fine, you detonated this bomb in the bar and killed a couple of us; we'll just use a backup from a few days/weeks ago and move along because fuck you, assbag, I am not biomassing."
Wow... I did not know they removed it. That's shitty. :(
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yeh ninjachange... // your jumpclone is basically a double medclone.
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Again, there's a reason a lot of us went "fuck you CCP and your fail logic" and just continued onward as if the change had never been made.
I sincerely suggest that approach.
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Again, there's a reason a lot of us went "fuck you CCP and your fail logic" and just continued onward as if the change had never been made.
I sincerely suggest that approach.
This really.
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It's a bit too close to the fourth wall with the NPC calling it an 'epic arc' but:
Sister Alitura Division: Security 0.6 Arnon IX - Moon 3 - Sisters of EVE Bureau Effective Standing: 9.7
Hello Kohiko Sun. Good to see you again. I would like to remind you that you have previously completed this epic arc and for you to embark on it once again I would have to erase all memory of the arc from your mind. Are you sure you would like to start this journey once again and lose all history of this arc?
I always wondered about how 'safe' the implants and datajacks are. The thought of a pickpocket type with a datastick of bad code causing a mess makes me cackle.
Not really memory, but kind of related:
Since Egonics can send music right into someone's brain, I can imagine them trying to figure out how to make 'movies'. Record the 'actor's' brainwaves from their senses and emotions, then the 'viewer' experiences them without any sort of memory swap involved - the 'viewer' still has memory of a clearly fake experience, but it's not an actual implanted memory. "I was there!" I think the New Eden nerds would be more interested in that ...because pr0n. <.<
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All I read is prOn.
Christ I"m tired. ;)
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I think there was an old chron... Doppleganger? I think it was that described how the Pend Insurance CEO was being investigated by CONCORD and asked some questions by DED types about if he had two clones active at the same time or if someone else was trying to impersonate him.
That seemed to imply it was possible to have multiple copies and that CONCORD took a very dim view upon it. So what's wrong with softcloning? It ties into the whole multiple copies thing, and why would CONCORD make something illegal that could not occur with the technology available?
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Can someone beter define a softclone? I thought it was more like jumppcloning before they ninjaeditigned the definition of jumpcloning -- or even a 'clone without jacks'. - not a clone that exidtss in a concious state at the ame time as another (any more than a jumpclone used to.. becuase rippning out implans and putting in new biomass so SO not a waste of resources.)
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Can someone beter define a softclone? I thought it was more like jumppcloning before they ninjaeditigned the definition of jumpcloning -- or even a 'clone without jacks'. - not a clone that exidtss in a concious state at the ame time as another (any more than a jumpclone used to.. becuase rippning out implans and putting in new biomass so SO not a waste of resources.)
A softclone doesn't say anything about the nature of the clone itself, any clone can be a softclone, from the most basic and generic to the most expensive and customized. What makes a clone 'soft' is the process used to generate the mental data that goes into the clone. 'Hard' cloning involves the clone burn scanner in the capsule and kills the user but delivers absolutely up to date information to their new body. 'Soft' cloning involves using some manner of less invasive scanner, likely some high powered futuristic MRI type device to generate the mental state data. However, you can't be updating all the time, so if you die out of pod and are 'soft cloned' you lose the memories from everything after your backup was made.
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not a clone that exidtss in a concious state at the ame time as another
Two clones at once would be something else, called forking.
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The term originated out of a term used to describe a non-lethal brain scan - a 'soft' scan as opposed to the 'hard' scan described in the capsule/clone tech article.
Essentially you're talking about a clone whose brain imprint is that of a soft scan - a backup. Instead of being activated when the capsuleer dies in the capsule, it's activated after the capsuleer dies outside of the capsule, and only contains memories up to the point of the last soft scan. It's similar to getting podded while you have more SP than your medical clone can hold.
Veik: What CONCORD views as illegal is one person having more than one 'instance' walking around at the same time. There's nothing wrong with having backups or spares in their eyes, it's when you have them walking around that they start to take issue. There was an AURORA event series a number of years back involving someone named Hyota Vasy over this specific issue.
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Veik: What CONCORD views as illegal is one person having more than one 'instance' walking around at the same time. There's nothing wrong with having backups or spares in their eyes, it's when you have them walking around that they start to take issue. There was an AURORA event series a number of years back involving someone named Hyota Vasy over this specific issue.
Well yeah, what I was saying was logically there has to be some kind of "soft" cloning procedure in order to actually have some kind of multiple clone instance situation for CONCORD to make illegal in the first place.
Otherwise it makes no sense: There is no such thing like having a backup clone of yourself, it's impossible, but just to make sure it's impossible CONCORD thinks it's illegal to have multiple clones of yourself active.
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Apologies if I've missed the point or the reference somewhere else on the boards, but what's the PF case against having an out-of-date 'backup' of your infomorph data stored somewhere to be activated in the event of death outside the capsule?
edit: Nevermind, I got off my lazy backside and went and read Morwen's post on the first page of this thread :)
To get around the CCP view of it, why not just do away with the concept of soft-cloning/hard-cloning altogether?
ie, instead of preserving your brain you deliberately undergo induced brain death and brain-scan in a cloning facility similar to how it was presented in one of the recent expansion launch videos I think?
In the non-emergency situation (ie, not involving pod-breach) your static infomorph data could then be stored/backed-up/copied and activated at a later date. I suppose that method might also offer a reasonable explanation for the possibility of either memory modification or lockout.
I don't know of any PF that suggests the infomorph data must be deleted or destroyed after being transferred into a clone blank.
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This seemed relevant:
https://twitter.com/Flamespar/status/409615600390909952/photo/1/large (https://twitter.com/Flamespar/status/409615600390909952/photo/1/large)
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I think there was an old chron... Doppleganger?
Retconned out of existence by TonyG if I recall correctly. Basically, "it gives too many hints as to who The Broker is." That's really beside the point though. >.< Carry on!
I think it was that described how the Pend Insurance CEO was being investigated by CONCORD and asked some questions by DED types about if he had two clones active at the same time or if someone else was trying to impersonate him.
It seemed more like they were just confirming what they already knew, that someone used a clone that looked like him in order to get access somewhere.
That seemed to imply it was possible to have multiple copies and that CONCORD took a very dim view upon it. So what's wrong with softcloning? It ties into the whole multiple copies thing, and why would CONCORD make something illegal that could not occur with the technology available?
C3 article states it's possible to have multiple copies in existence at once. Clonejumping is a loophole in the laws preventing the keeping of multiple active clones.
You can have multiple clones around, but they can't be active copies with memories and feelings and --potentially the worst of all-- legal status. Without proper training/pharmaceuticals/medical facilities it leads to pretty nasty side effects as well. Long and the short of it, they don't want a "Insane zombie clone apocalypse".
Actual brain rewiring wouldn't be hard given that it's necessary to be able to use cybernetic implants (at least, understanding how NOT to rewire someone's brain negatively by shoving a circuit board into someone's spinal column and deep within the brain in order to allow them to fly a freakin' ship with their brain). It exists in multiple forms within chronicles and short stories (as well as one of TonyG's novellas). However, in my personal opinion, it does walk the line of godmodding even if done well EDIT: by players.
Is it necessary for SoCT RP? Definitely not. There are multiple ways to achieve greater awareness ("Hyperconsciousness", if you will), and a lot of what makes SoCT interesting is the fact that they seem to be interested in technological advancement as a means to enlightenment and evolution of humanity. SoCT wouldn't necessarily find Sansha's Nation aberrant, for instance. They're just doing what they can to overcome the limits of biology in the search for knowledge.
The SoCT might see the ends as noble even if the means are horrendous and deplorable. Does humanity always act in it's own self interest? No. Do individuals act in the self interest in others at all times? No. Why not enforce such until a time comes that humanity can do so themselves? That's the reason for laws, is it not? Altering the brain to be able to think about something greater first and their own preservation second isn't a bad thing, is it?
In the end, proper context is key to any plot device. Is there a moral or ethical conflict? How is this moral or ethical conflict addressed? Furthermore, would the fact that there are altered memories present even be something that would be known or be knowable by others? If it is not knowable, why pursue it as a plot point?
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=304334&p=2 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=304334&p=2)
Here we go again. :(
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=304334&p=2 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=304334&p=2)
Here we go again. :(
Since that character belongs to a friend of mine and I have assisted the player with creating that character from the ground up, I'll answer this for you.
Saya Ishikari's eidetic memory has nothing to do with the learning skills or anything else in this thread. The Saya character is a genetics experiment (that somewhat failed) by the State using the tube child program, and having an eidetic memory is one of the intended results of her creation, along with a few other significant perks. Genetic engineering and rigorous training gave her those traits. It took years of planning, experiments, and a brutal childhood filled with too-sterile laboratories, testing, and training to get it. Not learning a skill ingame. She's also the only surviving subject of those experiments, and suffers greatly under countless side-effects and traumatic experiences. It's part of a roleplay backstory, not god-modding. Her memory is probably one of the very few things Saya has going for her, being almost completely inept in most other facets of life.
Don't be so quick to judge.
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Memory not to just recall/store images/sounds/objects (as per wiki definition) like any storage memory implant, but to absord and process... a whole culture ? :|
Feels like a strong déjà vu (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5579.msg91646#msg91646)...
Or did I understand wrong somewhere ? My apologies if so...
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Memory not to just recall/store images/sounds/objects (as per wiki definition) like any storage memory implant, but to absord and process... a whole culture ? :|
Feels like a strong déjà vu (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5579.msg91646#msg91646)...
Or did I understand wrong somewhere ? My apologies if so...
The post you linked blatantly invited you to come RP with her so that both the player can help develop the backstory more and so you can learn more about it. Perhaps you can take the player up on the offer and go work it out IC to a mutually reasonable solution instead of making a call-out here.
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Considering the IC answer I got to an invitation to clarify/explain/elaborate, I got the complete opposite feeling...
Well then, i'm happy it was not the case then... Sorry. :/
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Jeez, I had no idea that CCP had changed the PF on cloning but, it makes sense to go along with their revised "when you first become a pilot we euthanize your original body" crap, I guess.
Good lord when will CCP quit messing around with the lore for no discernible reason?
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So, some of the stuff I've read here and have been thinking about reminds me a bit of Shadowrun with the Stim chips and simulated virtual reality chips that people could buy, plug in and then experience the life of someone else. These typically could not override the memories of the user, but depending on the nature of the chip, the user could become addicted to the sensations created by the stimuli.
As for memory wipes/deletes/modifications...I think that could be a possibility in EVE, however the reason I don't think it is common place or has much chance of working is due to the nature of the technology involved. If we stripped everything down to just data and forget all the other stuff for a moment, one of the reasons I think clone tech is beyond most baseliners isn't necessarily the process itself, but the installed hardware firewalls and shielding devices in the capsuleer implants to prevent someone from wiping the hard drive as it were. I would be of the opinion that the hardware would have to be hardened against the feedback that we get when in the pod and therefore would prevent just about any attempt to memory mod/wipe a target.
Not saying that it isn't possible, just highly improbable. If someone wants to come up with a story/character concept where their memory gets stolen, fiddled with, I'm cool with that, just so long as some thought is put into it. It doesn't have to be 'realistic' to convince me, just something more than "just cuz".
One thing that I've had an issue with is the supposed physical frailty of the clones. Yes, we don't need to be super-soldiers, but I don't buy the "will likely die if they catch cold cause of sterile environments"...the moment you step out of the tube to get into the pod, you'll likely have contracted any number of nasty bacterial or viral agents. If cloning is supposed to be an expensive process, I want that money I'm spending on clones to include one hell of a immune system. Also, assuming nothing really funky, unless they are basing your clones off of genetic material taken whilst you were still in the womb, the genetic building blocks they are working with are going to include things like your basic immune systems..I think (I could be wrong on this part, but I see that as being part of one's genes).
Fortunately, the whole clone/jumpclone/softclone/hardclone/sheepclone has never really been an issue in the RP I've had in EVE.
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I have a problem with it since to me it totally breaks my suspension of disbelief.
We know that cloning is highly expensive and barely affordable by 99,9999...99% of the cluster. Memory tampering on a - LIVING ! - being is an even more complicated process which involves a lot more than just copy/pasting a brain pattern like cloning does. The only damn hint we have about that are skillbooks afaik, and those are not affordable either. Ah yes, there is also TCMCs and Sansha implants, but those do not modify your memory, those feed you with faked sensory input or just defy your own control on your brain functions...
I'm still stuck on it and don't like to think of people running all around tampering with their memory and going all Remember Me because it's cool.
Well yes, it's cool, but it's highly godmoddy. This is not Shadowrun, this is Eve.
/rant.
But yes, I don't really believe in clone frailty to the point of being suddenly all sensitive to every microbial stem... If we were we would already be all sick to death of tetanus considering what we get in place of Minmatar CQs... I would even prefer to lick a subway pole rather than putting my hands on those... things.
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Meh.
Keep in mind you can tamper with memories *today* through good old fashioned brainwashing. The memory centers of the brain are not accurate things, not really. You can implant memories in people's heads simply through the power of suggestion, and the associative centers work with the imagination and stored data to create a scenario that the person will swear to their grave is true.
Implanting a sensory memory (I went to the beach, I slept with a supermodel) won't be all that difficult. Sorry. It's true.
The BOOKS (I can operate a microwarpdrive, or even, I can play the piano - not an existing book, but not something (a skill) that can be created by imagination) ARE DEFINITELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS though.
TODAY you can convince people horrible things happened in their childhoods with a few weeks of just face to face scounseling.
I'm pretty sure a machine even slightly adjusted to effect someone's brain could do it in the time it takes them to hit the button.
Heck.
Playing a psychologist - I have *altered players memories just by roleplaying at them* in the sense of lowering the impacto of traumatic incidents, etc.
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Yes, a different animal.
Thanks for the input, it also helps me to define it better.
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Yeh.. basicl "total rtecall" stuff.. if MEMORY.. but once the "memory" is over the person "forgets" the 'kung fu' moves they used in the memory, ... doable. Remembering them after the fact.. not so much.
It is a "sore point" with me as Arista is a failed Clonejack. However, the culprit used illegal Skillbook tech, with the massive amounts of ISK required to pull that off.. and it was *failed*, turning sensory/etc memory into the equivalent of memorizing a textbook, with Arista never being able to use the memory as more than 'theoretical knowledge' (like watching or reading a 'how to' and having little clue how it ACTUALLY works) - or what we'd been referring to as 'muscle memory' - if you include, for example, spaceship flight skills as 'muscle memory' style skills.
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Yeh.. basicl "total rtecall" stuff.. if MEMORY.. but once the "memory" is over the person "forgets" the 'kung fu' moves they used in the memory, ... doable. Remembering them after the fact.. not so much.
It is a "sore point" with me as Arista is a failed Clonejack. However, the culprit used illegal Skillbook tech, with the massive amounts of ISK required to pull that off.. and it was *failed*, turning sensory/etc memory into the equivalent of memorizing a textbook, with Arista never being able to use the memory as more than 'theoretical knowledge' (like watching or reading a 'how to' and having little clue how it ACTUALLY works) - or what we'd been referring to as 'muscle memory' - if you include, for example, spaceship flight skills as 'muscle memory' style skills.
Over in my little corner of the sandbox, I've toyed around a fair bit with neural recordings, backups and clone jackings/hackings. I've argued that neural recording burners extract memories layer by layer, beginning with autonomic physical functions (Layer Zero) and proceeding through the other layers in order of programmed preference. Only Layers Zero and One (Sentience) are required for a functioning -- albeit animal-like -- neural copy, while Layer Three (Intellect) enables that neural copy, if plugged into a clone, to learn. The base/objective structure of memories can be found in Layer Four, as part and parcel of time perception. Layer Five contains the "tags" for muscle and other sensory memories, while Layer Six stores emotional associations. I think there might have been other layers that came up in play, but heck if I can remember them right now.
Your play with Arista reads like the poor girl suffered a failure in Layer Five and Layer Six integration. :)
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Which is good, otherwise she'd have been a rather evil Amarrian pirate, and not herself.
Caldinea (A couple of people have seen me RP her) is not a nice lady.
It also didn't overwrite Arista's initial memory like it was supposed to, it just added the memories of a second person, and wherever the "failure" was, it made her realise they were not her memories, and didn't cause something like MPD.