Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Shintoko Akahoshi on 01 Aug 2013, 12:03
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I've personally been enjoying the hell out of the Colelie mudslinging. It's given a bit of realism and complexity to the Federation-Republic relationship, and it seems like a realistic sort of thing to have happen (keep in mind we're talking about somewhere between 6-10 as many deaths as in the 9/11 attacks, on the Federation side alone, and we all know what sort of response came out of 9/11...). It's also helped provide some needed depth to Shin, as well as catalyzing a change in the way I RP her.
That said, if it's really turned into the sort of thing where the rest of you would simply rather the issue be dropped, I am OOCly willing to do so. Chime in here, please.
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No. I like it, and if it helps the development of your character and there's still some more to be had - keep going!
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(Ignore this, please. I don't do polls much, and mis-viewed something)
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As long as people keep responding to it, hell no, keep going with it.
You don't have to keep going at it from the same angle; as Shin goes through different stages of grief (assuming she's still doing that) regarding her friend, tweak the way she attacks the issue to go with it.
It only becomes beating a dead horse when people stop responding to it in any fashion but to tell you you're beating a dead horse. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Kata. :P)
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Shin, if you're having fun, continue with it. I was just using Colelie as an example because it's recent, and it's part of what Ava was referring to as dog-piling on minmatar earlier in that thread.
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No, it's deeply part of the character.
Lyn, even if mostly tranquil and not emotional at all, was quite vitriolic when Colelie happened (though not as much as Cael), but she stopped quickly since it doesn't make sense for a character that is completely unable to hold grudges to continue to hold some. Especially since she had no stake in it at all. If it wasn't deeply rooted in Shin, it maybe would have been better to drop it after all this time yes, but not for Shin. That's the point.
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As long as people keep responding to it, hell no, keep going with it.
You don't have to keep going at it from the same angle; as Shin goes through different stages of grief (assuming she's still doing that) regarding her friend, tweak the way she attacks the issue to go with it.
It only becomes beating a dead horse when people stop responding to it in any fashion but to tell you you're beating a dead horse. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Kata. :P)
This pretty much. If its fun for you, keep it up.
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+1 to what other folks have been saying. I'm mildly grouchy about the whole Colelie situation due to increasingly suspecting that CCP is just going to forget to have any consequences, but I'm all for keeping at this thing if you've still got the energy and the interest. Reppy's got your back.
And who knows, maybe if we keep the topic up there, somebody will remember to tidy up :P
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I admit I've not read the IGS to deeply, but Shin seems to be intelligently criticizing the Shakor administration and the specific fleet commanders of that force rather than bandwagoning onto a general "Republic r teh ebils" sentiment.
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No, she shouldn't drop her obsession. Blood for the blood god, and all that.
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Think about what would happen if the US invaded Russia, sank a chunk of the Black Sea fleet and lost the Pacific Fleet trying to repatriate Snowden.
Think about how America's enemies and allies would react.
No, Shin shouldn't drop it. I'm surprised more Federation loyalists and burning with incandescent rage.
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Why should she? It's an important issue.
That having been said she won't have Andrea to spar with unless there is some further development, I'm pretty bored of it due to not having anything new to chew on.
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[...] not having anything new to chew on.
You were saying? (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/atlanins-distribution-center-attack-sparks-unrest-in-essence-59-detained/) :3
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I was saying before in OOC how much I love this storyline and what it did on an international relations level. My new Fed nationalist character is perhaps too new to jump right on in on this but I absolutely support the rest of the Gallente Gang getting on and going to town politically on the Republic.
It's good to see.
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I'm going to give the IC=OOC crowd some credibility, by noting that everyone who has voiced pro "keep on flying the flag for colelie" opinions are either players of characters who support that position, or don't care but are anti-minmatar. *tinfoil*
Just to clarify my own position. I'm fine with people doing whatever. Shin: you're having fun and you are making an impact on the RP scene. Have fun and keep doing that. Your entertainment as a player keeps you involved. That keeps the RP scene alive.
Colelie is a CCP generated plot magnet, have fun with it. What I'm against is having six forum threads about the same thing. Most started as seperate subjects, but they end up with characters arguing the same stuff, often in parallel with other threads. That get's to be disappointing.
The latest CCP article about the SDII dragging off a Brutor for killing people in self defence is only tangentially related to Colelie or the Bloody Hands. But immediately it becomes a forum for those topics. WTB some characters who are as up in arms about threats against freedoms.
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The latest CCP article about the SDII dragging off a Brutor for killing people in self defence is only tangentially related to Colelie or the Bloody Hands. But immediately it becomes a forum for those topics. WTB some characters who are as up in arms about threats against freedoms.
Would love to, but Reppy doesn't give a damn. Not her country, and shit like that happens all the time at home. :P
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Think about what would happen if the US invaded Russia, sank a chunk of the Black Sea fleet and lost the Pacific Fleet trying to repatriate Snowden.
Think about how America's enemies and allies would react.
Now imagine that Snowden was in England, not Russia. And the U.S. did the same thing.
The developers pretty much explicitly stated that the pace of the news was going to slow down, which is fine. What isn't fine is an obvious lack of planning ahead. This isn't a "slow simmer" kind of story. It's a flashpoint, and they should have had the whole news series written out from beginning to end before posting the first news article. That way, they could post on a timetable dictated by the needs of the story, rather than "Oh shit, everyone's either on vacation or working with the CSM on the re-balancing, no one can finish writing this right now." I'm fine with stories coming in at a lower rate than before, as long as they don't jack up the timing like they did with Colelie.
So, in other words Shin, no, keep it going. :D If Galen cared, he'd be all over it, but he's not heavily involved in empire politics these days. Keep it up, and eventually the developers will finish the arc. One day...
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The latest CCP article about the SDII dragging off a Brutor for killing people in self defence is only tangentially related to Colelie or the Bloody Hands. But immediately it becomes a forum for those topics. WTB some characters who are as up in arms about threats against freedoms.
Would love to, but Reppy doesn't give a damn. Not her country, and shit like that happens all the time at home. :P
I thought freedom was just a synonym for 'filthy Gallente perversions.' Was I wrong?
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The whole arc has made Ava essentially unplayable for me, at least in anything other than very ocassional RP. The IGS is now just utterly pointless, anything I say on there will just invite an avalanche of ridiculous OTT reprisal. In game RP is somewhat better, but if we go any deeper than fluff "Hello how are you?" it has a tendency to similarly degenerate. Also... come on, we are coming up on three months and NO statement from either side? What gives?
Im glad you're having fun. Wish I could too.
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Would it change that if Shin were no longer harping on the subject? I have one possible way that could happen, but it would require the assistance of someone from your side. It's a bit... extreme, too.
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I don't think Shin is the generator of the problem.
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I'm going to give the IC=OOC crowd some credibility, by noting that everyone who has voiced pro "keep on flying the flag for colelie" opinions are either players of characters who support that position, or don't care but are anti-minmatar. *tinfoil*
<snip>
Whatever gave you that idea?
I have no particular liking for having the faction I fly for act like morons. But if someone is playing true to their character and is still getting something out of doing what they are doing then who am I to tell them to do otherwise?
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Just my opinion here, but while the whole 'bad things happened' part of Shin's anger seems totally understandable... the link between 'we were attacked' and 'dissolve the alliance keeping the amarrian and caldari alliance at bay' especially under the current threat from house Sarum of beginning another reclaiming does seem a little overly extreme.
she keeps using individual analogies... in this case it seems the best response, and one that i believe Verin used is that old friends sometimes have somewhat violent fights when drunk or emotional, but when things calm down, they simply forget about it and carry on.
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I was about to type out a reply to this, when I realized that the best response is to simply say "Come grab Shin and we'll debate it over a drink". :D
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[...] not having anything new to chew on.
You were saying? (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/atlanins-distribution-center-attack-sparks-unrest-in-essence-59-detained/) :3
I was saying. It's a good opportunity to run with this in a way that doesn't rehash the Colelie argument because it's about more basic coexistence than the formal alliance. Okazon is indeed going to be getting shouty again.
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[...] especially under the current threat from house Sarum of beginning another reclaiming does seem a little overly extreme.
Last time I checked the Sarum Prime system was swarming with Sarumite ships already... not.
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Would it change that if Shin were no longer harping on the subject? I have one possible way that could happen, but it would require the assistance of someone from your side. It's a bit... extreme, too.
Youre not the generator of the issue. Do you take part? Yes, but so does literally everyone else, including several people Ava considers very good friends. The whole arc is just ridiculous, and the player fallout and response doubly so.
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[...] especially under the current threat from house Sarum of beginning another reclaiming does seem a little overly extreme.
Last time I checked the Sarum Prime system was swarming with Sarumite ships already... not.
They have, according to CCP mandated news, called for a new reclaiming and stated that they are forming a taskforce to do just that.
'i can't find it in game' doesn't mean a thing really. The threat has been made.. which is exactly what i stated.
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You mean this? (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2963747#post2963747)
To the topic at hand anyway. I voted no. I'll not go into the storyline. It is what it is. But you've got Shin rolling with it and I am honestly surprised more fed loyalists aren't kicking up a stink about it. To each their own though.
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I'm not actually vote for a couple of reasons:
- On one hand, there has been some good debates/points made and it is something important to your character, so keep on it
- On the flip side, as terrible as the event was, Steff is really of the opinion that 'harping' on the subject is preventing any meaningful progression for either side forward from the events
Now, as a player, if something strikes you as being important to your character, I'm not going to tell you otherwise. It's your character, grab that ball and run with it. I like what I see, even if I have gotten tired of the "I'm right, you're wrong" tone the arguments have taken as time has progressed. I'm just as guilty of the attitude myself, but sometimes I wonder if we do allow our characters the ability to compromise or even admit when they are wrong? Just my observation based on some of the arguments I've seen and at the end of the day, I want to see people having fun, but a part of me would like to see some characters being a little less 'rigid' and grow through seeing that maybe they were wrong on something. Of course, two sides to every story arguments can be made why someone sees their actions/side as being right.
My biggest issue, however, with the whole Coleile situation actually resides with CCP. I'm not sure how things were like before (i.e. I'm now just entering my 3rd month of play) and I've heard others talking about the various good/bad story lines that have come from CCP in the past. My actual issue is the events of Coleile are not something that would just go quiet. Even if neither side was willing to apologize, there ought to have been statements made by both governments...I could be wrong about it, but dreadnought fleet engagements are not something you just sweep under the carpet and pretend didn't happen...both sides lost a noticeable chunk of assets, yet no word or anything.
I can sympathize a bit with Ava from the point of view that because EM was involved in the action, and without anything from the actual parties involved, all the players upset with the event are jumping on the 'kick the apparent bad guy while they're down' wagon. I may have been guilty of this, I'm not sure. I understand, having been involved with the military in RL, the situation EM found themselves in...they received an order from on high to engage 'the enemy'. It's easy to sit back and say EM was wrong and should have refused the order and either held back or left the field, but then they would have been labelled traitors by the Republic...whether or not there'd be an in-game mechanic/consequence for that is irrelevant from a story point of view: EM, a group that strikes me as being loyal to the Republic, would no longer be loyal by refusing the order. They had no choice. From Steff's point of view, she has nothing against what EM did, they were called upon to support a fleet of dreds; as to whether or not they were told they would be going in force into Fed space and that they were going to engage anything that got in their path is another thing and even then Steff still doesn't hold anything against the EM pilots. Bad decisions were made all around and jumping down EM's throat solves nothing. Once the first shots were fired, EM again had no real choice in what they could do as now they were red to the Feds and were in a giant furball of a space battle.
So I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if it is developing your character and fun, stick with it. CCP should have had an idea what Coleile might do and there are enough real-world examples (admittedly on a much smaller scale) that to sit back and not have anything said for 3 months is disappointing and frustrating.
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[...] especially under the current threat from house Sarum of beginning another reclaiming does seem a little overly extreme.
Last time I checked the Sarum Prime system was swarming with Sarumite ships already... not.
They have, according to CCP mandated news, called for a new reclaiming and stated that they are forming a taskforce to do just that.
'i can't find it in game' doesn't mean a thing really. The threat has been made.. which is exactly what i stated.
No threat has been made, the Sarum house merely deployed some more troops to the warzone, where the Reclaiming is already underway: That's why the news piece titles aptly "House Sarum “gearing up for next stage in Reclaiming”" . So, really, that's not that new and compared to the Republic's actions of infringing on federal borders quite trivial. A house committing to a war that's already ongoing versus allies that shoot you in the back.
Well, really, the Sarum ships that might or might not be used outside the warzone are really much more of an actual problem than ships that crossed the border with hostile intentions and started a fight, while they are supposed to be allied. Well, maybe not. I can understand Ava's frustration with the level of derp involved in that storyline.
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I think that part of the problem here with the Colelie arc is the timing. This arc started just before Fanfest, and ramped up right into the start of the traditional CCP summer slump (aka, vacation and Alliance Tournament time). They've had to slow down as a result.
I think as the next month or so roll by and people start drifting back to the office, we'll start seeing things pick up again.
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Again, from a newbie perspective, it does feel...frustrating with the arc just dropping like that. I know I can sit here and say CCP should have realized the timing and either have done one of two things: delay the whole arc just long enough to get through the vacation slump. Or they could have prepared news releases that could be published on a schedule during the 'downtime' just to progress the plot along enough to give the illusion of progress. Again, it's easy to sit back and play armchair general and say how things could have been without knowing the reality of the situation.
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Shin -
I voted "No", do what you want to do, if your having fun. Once you aren't having fun, then do something else.
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I understand, having been involved with the military in RL, the situation EM found themselves in...they received an order from on high to engage 'the enemy'. It's easy to sit back and say EM was wrong and should have refused the order and either held back or left the field, but then they would have been labelled traitors by the Republic...
That's not comparable. EM are like everyone of us, freelance independent capsuleers. They are no military capsuleers and are not bond to anything beyond their own fabricated loyalties, so no, labeling them traitors for just refusing to assist would be plain wrong. Also, I really doubt it was an order, just a demand of support.
And I too understand and appreciate the dilemna they were put into, they had their - good - reasons to do so, but they could have refused, unlike an enlisted military could not have.
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Also someone needs to counter Musana.
Shintoko, not the hero we want, but the hero we need.
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[...] especially under the current threat from house Sarum of beginning another reclaiming does seem a little overly extreme.
Last time I checked the Sarum Prime system was swarming with Sarumite ships already... not.
They have, according to CCP mandated news, called for a new reclaiming and stated that they are forming a taskforce to do just that.
'i can't find it in game' doesn't mean a thing really. The threat has been made.. which is exactly what i stated.
No threat has been made, the Sarum house merely deployed some more troops to the warzone, where the Reclaiming is already underway: That's why the news piece titles aptly "House Sarum “gearing up for next stage in Reclaiming”" . So, really, that's not that new and compared to the Republic's actions of infringing on federal borders quite trivial. A house committing to a war that's already ongoing versus allies that shoot you in the back.
Well, really, the Sarum ships that might or might not be used outside the warzone are really much more of an actual problem than ships that crossed the border with hostile intentions and started a fight, while they are supposed to be allied. Well, maybe not. I can understand Ava's frustration with the level of derp involved in that storyline.
Unfortunately you've mistaken the post in that thread that I was referring to.
Before the FIO report into the massing of ships and manpower there was a report where the current head of house Sarum 'Promotes aggressive conquest of minmatar territories', one that also contained the quote [the] “time to bring the Minmatar back to the fold is upon us once again.”
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976) - Reference
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[...]
Unfortunately you've mistaken the post in that thread that I was referring to.
Before the FIO report into the massing of ships and manpower there was a report where the current head of house Sarum 'Promotes aggressive conquest of minmatar territories', one that also contained the quote [the] “time to bring the Minmatar back to the fold is upon us once again.”
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976) - Reference
In that post Sarum isn't stating anything about a taskforce and honestly it's just the same, that is Sarum dedicating itself to a war already fought.
By the way, Sarum did this before the Colelie incident. I think it's quite too comfy to state that this declaration by Sarum should silence Federal criticism of the Minmatar actions, when the Minmatar themselves thought nothing about infringing on their allies while under such a "serious threat".
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That's not comparable. EM are like everyone of us, freelance independent capsuleers. They are no military capsuleers and are not bond to anything beyond their own fabricated loyalties, so no, labeling them traitors for just refusing to assist would be plain wrong. Also, I really doubt it was an order, just a demand of support.
And I too understand and appreciate the dilemna they were put into, they had their - good - reasons to do so, but they could have refused, unlike an enlisted military could not have.
True, We could have refused to assist the Republic. As Players, given the high likelyhood of the whole situation backfiring on the Republican ranks, that course of action would have made perfect sense. As Players, we are indeed not beholden to fabricated loyalties.
However, from the Character's point of View, refusing to aid the Republic when it called for assistance would have been unthinkable. For the Characters, their Loyalty to the Republic is not a fabricated thing, it's very, very real.
Sometimes, we do crazy things that cause us trouble and aggravation just because it makes sense that our characters would do that.
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Of course, if we didnt, RP would be less fun.
I may use the wrong term but fabricated is what all our loyalties are to me since they are not enforced into our characters through their affiliation, since they are privateers, unlike military capsuleers where loyalties are a reality and not an abstract product of their code of conduct / imagination / morals / etc. So, they fabricate them, whatever the reason behind is.
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Oh, I certainly hear you there.
I'm just concerned because it seems that some folks are either getting OOC grief or having their fun completely spoiled by this. Ava complaining that Colelie has made her character basically unplayable, for instance. A part of me is shrugging and saying "conflict is the basis of this game", but another part of me recognizes that we play this game for enjoyment and that sometimes OOC rationale for actions must trump IC.
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Of course, if we didnt, RP would be less fun.
I may use the wrong term but fabricated is what all our loyalties are to me since they are not enforced into our characters through their affiliation, since they are privateers, unlike military capsuleers where loyalties are a reality and not an abstract product of their code of conduct / imagination / morals / etc. So, they fabricate them, whatever the reason behind is.
Lynn. Some groups might consider membership in a militia merely a licence to make ISK and a welcome source of fights. Well so do we, but a lot of us also consider it to be our best way of serving the nation we are loyal to. And military loyalty is very much an artifact of the imagination. All the ceremony and formality is part of what keeps that imaginary thing alive.
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Oh, I certainly hear you there.
I'm just concerned because it seems that some folks are either getting OOC grief or having their fun completely spoiled by this. Ava complaining that Colelie has made her character basically unplayable, for instance. A part of me is shrugging and saying "conflict is the basis of this game", but another part of me recognizes that we play this game for enjoyment and that sometimes OOC rationale for actions must trump IC.
I'm of the opinion that if the player is getting that bent out of shape about a storyline in the game that their character is "unplayable", that perhaps they should step back and re-examine how much bleed-through they're allowing. This stuff SHOULD be super serious business for some of our characters. It SHOULD strain friendships and diplmoatic relationships. This kind of shit has started wars in the real world.
If the current state of things bugs people that much, instead of kvetching OOC about how horrible it is to deal with, maybe a better solution would be to group together and start doing things about it ingame?
Start hammering the shit out of the inboxes of the faction contacts demanding answers. Start hosting loud, mouthy, noisy rallies in Pator, or wherever Shakor's metaphorical throne-room would be. Poke ISD. You might even get news coverage out of it.
Just... do something, instead of sitting back and going on about how terrible things are. Boycotting the storyline because it makes your character's life difficult doesn't really do anything productive except take voices, many of them rational and often listened to, out of the equation.
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Shin -
I voted "No", do what you want to do, if your having fun. Once you aren't having fun, then do something else.
God. It's really just that simple, isn't it?
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Oh, I certainly hear you there.
I'm just concerned because it seems that some folks are either getting OOC grief or having their fun completely spoiled by this. Ava complaining that Colelie has made her character basically unplayable, for instance. A part of me is shrugging and saying "conflict is the basis of this game", but another part of me recognizes that we play this game for enjoyment and that sometimes OOC rationale for actions must trump IC.
It's an opportunity for character development and growth. When Heth made being a Caldari loyalist unbearable for Galen, he stopped being a loyalist. Galen has changed since his inception, and even though I OOC thought the storyline that drove some of those changes was absolutely retarded, I used it to shape own own story in a way that I liked.
Yes, being a hardcore faction loyalist is tough, because when your faction screws up, that means you own it. If you don't enjoy playing that kind of character, use events like Colelie as an opportunity. It can be as simple as your character expanding their definition of "loyalty" to include "voice of reason," or they could go fully rogue. UK pretty much had to deal with being Republic loyalists to a government they hated for years, and they did pretty well for themselves.
In other words, values dissonance between the player and their chosen faction is an issue every faction player has to deal with at some point. Don't let it get in the way of having fun.
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Unfortunately you've mistaken the post in that thread that I was referring to.
Before the FIO report into the massing of ships and manpower there was a report where the current head of house Sarum 'Promotes aggressive conquest of minmatar territories', one that also contained the quote [the] “time to bring the Minmatar back to the fold is upon us once again.”
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976) - Reference
In that post Sarum isn't stating anything about a taskforce and honestly it's just the same, that is Sarum dedicating itself to a war already fought.
By the way, Sarum did this before the Colelie incident. I think it's quite too comfy to state that this declaration by Sarum should silence Federal criticism of the Minmatar actions, when the Minmatar themselves thought nothing about infringing on their allies while under such a "serious threat".
Please, learn to comprehend my writing.
At no point did i say it should silence criticism. I merely stated calling for an end to the alliance was a somewhat extreme response.
You are putting words into my mouth where they previously did not exist.
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Of course, if we didnt, RP would be less fun.
I may use the wrong term but fabricated is what all our loyalties are to me since they are not enforced into our characters through their affiliation, since they are privateers, unlike military capsuleers where loyalties are a reality and not an abstract product of their code of conduct / imagination / morals / etc. So, they fabricate them, whatever the reason behind is.
Lynn. Some groups might consider membership in a militia merely a licence to make ISK and a welcome source of fights. Well so do we, but a lot of us also consider it to be our best way of serving the nation we are loyal to. And military loyalty is very much an artifact of the imagination. All the ceremony and formality is part of what keeps that imaginary thing alive.
I know military loyalty is an artifact, something fabricated the same way. The difference is that if they break their oath, they might lose more than a freelance capsuleer. They are held accountable for it.
And that's pretty cool that some factionned groups like EM also try to take it to their heart, especially with their freelance/independent status.
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Please, learn to comprehend my writing.
At no point did i say it should silence criticism. I merely stated calling for an end to the alliance was a somewhat extreme response.
You are putting words into my mouth where they previously did not exist.
Well, I can't read your mind through what you write. If you think people don't comprehend you properly, then either explain - without snarky remarks - what you meant without expecting people to read you mind or improve your writing.
Also, all I'm saying is that it's quite comfy to denounce the reaction of calling for an end to the alliance as 'somewhat extreme', when it's really just a reaction that's matching the extremism of the action that caused it. Why would you think of the reaction as being 'a little overly extreme', not - apparently - the action that caused it, I wonder.
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This thread has turned into a debate over Colelie I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING
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This thread has turned into a debate over Colelie I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING
Not just empty quoting. :bash:
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This thread has turned into a debate over Colelie I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING
Not just empty quoting. :bash:
+1
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I think we can basically sum this up as "our characters (and possibly players as well) have fundamentally differing views on the degree of flexibility available to an empire-loyalist capsuleer, and what they can (and should) do when given an order they feel is wrong or distasteful by a representative of the nation they are loyal to."
Unfortunately that's a fairly hefty divide, one that pertains as much to our views of the world as players as it does our characters experience, and the kind of thing that's vastly unlikely to be answered in the short term.
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Being an independent nut job is easier \o/
But +1 to what Esna said, though I still don't think it's beyond the bounds of reasoning to think someone would say no to an order they feel is wrong.
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Excellent. Further commitment to Shin's obsession is therefore confirmed. Moving on to stage 3...
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Being an independent nut job is easier \o/
But +1 to what Esna said, though I still don't think it's beyond the bounds of reasoning to think someone would say no to an order they feel is wrong.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) would seem to indicate otherwise. Depressing, I know.
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Excellent. Further commitment to Shin's obsession is therefore confirmed. Moving on to stage 3...
The pigeons are ready, but I wasn't able to grease all the wineglasses.
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Excellent. Further commitment to Shin's obsession is therefore confirmed. Moving on to stage 3...
The pigeons are ready, but I wasn't able to grease all the wineglasses.
I have the furriers and the Gold Tequila ready. Now, did you want a deacon or a shaman?
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Being an independent nut job is easier \o/
But +1 to what Esna said, though I still don't think it's beyond the bounds of reasoning to think someone would say no to an order they feel is wrong.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) would seem to indicate otherwise. Depressing, I know.
People make a big deal out of Milgram, and it's an important/disturbing insight. But keep in mind, quite a few people did object at some point and others refused to participate at all. There was no lemming-like march of all the subjects.
In RL, of course, we see people bucking at authority all the time. Just not, perhaps, as often or as vociferously as they should.
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Pigeons - check
Greased wineglasses - a majority is fine, as we'll still get statistically relevant results
Furriers and tequila - excellent!
As far as religious figures go, we want a relative sample of shamans from all major tribes, as well as three Idas as a control group. Please note that they must all be shaved per spec 1.483-a.
Do we still have the rental option on the extra vats?
Re: Milgram, Robert Altemayer wrote a fascinating study of authority figures and those who follow them (http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/). It's well worth the read.
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Rental confirmed.
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This thread has turned into a debate over Colelie I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skOqTXXgNP4