Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lithium Flower on 21 Apr 2013, 13:06
-
The situation in the State for me somehow very resembles Ancient Rome, with Tibus Heth playing a role of supreme commander, who is about to become Emperor.
He already gives people what they want: bread and show. The bread is these reforms, that made regular workers to become richer. The show, is the war against gallente, that is going on, without touching major Caldari inhabited worlds.
Just like roman Emperor, before actually becoming one, Tibus Heth made a decisive and heroic victory (capture of Caldari Prime), that gave him support from both military and civilians.
The only thing he needs now to capture the power in the State, is to grab the Navy and cross the Rubicon. Peoples with marines will bring him on hands to CEP meeting hall. He will take their freedom, and they will give him their lives.
Will there be a civil war then? I think yes, most probably in a scenario of civil war after Russian revolution. Same as bolsheviks, provists will have support of commoners and the army. "White resistance" will be composed of traditionalists (who would most probably just immigrate out of the State) and several corporate police forces, who would unite under some sort of "new CEP" to give fight to provists (or "new Empire"). (Simply because corporate police forces would be disbanded to form unified police force).
According to "grimdark prediction" and history lesson from 1918, this "new CEP" would eventually lose.
And what do you think? Can it happen?
-
It depends entirely on their plans for Factional Warfare and how static they need to keep State space from a game mechanics perspective.
-
The situation in the State for me somehow very resembles Ancient Rome, with Tibus Heth playing a role of supreme commander, who is about to become Emperor.
He already gives people what they want: bread and show. The bread is these reforms, that made regular workers to become richer. The show, is the war against gallente, that is going on, without touching major Caldari inhabited worlds.
Just like roman Emperor, before actually becoming one, Tibus Heth made a decisive and heroic victory (capture of Caldari Prime), that gave him support from both military and civilians.
The only thing he needs now to capture the power in the State, is to grab the Navy and cross the Rubicon. Peoples with marines will bring him on hands to CEP meeting hall. He will take their freedom, and they will give him their lives.
Will there be a civil war then? I think yes, most probably in a scenario of civil war after Russian revolution. Same as bolsheviks, provists will have support of commoners and the army. "White resistance" will be composed of traditionalists (who would most probably just immigrate out of the State) and several corporate police forces, who would unite under some sort of "new CEP" to give fight to provists (or "new Empire"). (Simply because corporate police forces would be disbanded to form unified police force).
According to "grimdark prediction" and history lesson from 1918, this "new CEP" would eventually lose.
And what do you think? Can it happen?
I know what the people of Sulla thought? So between love and being seen as a "King" (aka L. Tarquin) is a thin red line.
As for the state and change in general.... I think this news shows something will happend: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-proclaims-vision-for-single-solidified-state/
-
It would be awesome if they went there.
Though I wish we could get a few more reasons to be loyal to Heth. Ceaser was quite popular, if I recall correctly.
-
As for the state and change in general.... I think this news shows something will happend: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-proclaims-vision-for-single-solidified-state/
That's exactly what made me have such ideas :P
-
Well, if the State goes down the Roman path to crowning an emperor it sort of brings up a new question.
Who gets to be Hannibal? When will the barbarians sack Rome?
-
It would be awesome if they went there.
Though I wish we could get a few more reasons to be loyal to Heth. Ceaser was quite popular, if I recall correctly.
As for the state and change in general.... I think this news shows something will happend: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-proclaims-vision-for-single-solidified-state/
That's exactly what made me have such ideas :P
Oh.. thats the thing what I meant with Sulla. Yes, we know Caesar, but he is one success story; But history which shows more fails. It isnt without reason, that people use the word Sulla (or the title: King) as a offence. So for Caesar and moreover Octavian; there are more people on the other side, which had FAILED. *Publius enters long boring list*
I also think, that it would bring a "Cincinnatus problem"; what I mean with it... The caldari had in the past heroes (Yakiya Tovil-Toba, etc...) which had a lack of personal ambition (in a political sense) and showed a great deal of modesty. They had more or less done things for the "greater good" (like Cincinnatus), see http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_%28NPCs%29
So Heth would face more or less the same problems....
- "Kings"/"Central Leaders" or unpopular.
- Grab of power would be seen as un-caldari..... The same problem, which TonG had, and he could overcome it with: "The people (and the broker) had give him the power.... he was more or less flush upwards." So.. If they dont want repeat the old errors; they - CCP - have to think about a new way.
- Success. It explains by itself. He must have success by his doing (and please dont come again, with a "walking plot conveniences (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf1XOIPNfJg#t=40s)". *Yes I look at you Jamyl*). This point is the hardest to pull off; as can be seen in Toy G books; all characters, all of them, ALL, are plot conveniences which just choose paths which bring the plot forward (but are un-logical, or even self destructive. A new example would be Khanid II). And the sad thing is; even ETERNES long wiki page of Jamyl doesnt fix this error. So I hope they dont get this path; and add a new "arrg story line" (and yes I look at you TonyG books, and Eternes Khanid Kingdom changes).
Secondly (more in the direction of CCP). It will not help the Fiction team in his task. Meaning: By pulling a new government out their ass, will not free them of describing the current government. So If you cant put the current Caldari government together, then dont make a new one (better get help from the outside or ask someone for help).
So to come down again; and dont de-rail this thread: How can Heth have "Success"? What could be the obstacles?
-
Well, if the State goes down the Roman path to crowning an emperor it sort of brings up a new question.
Who gets to be Hannibal? When will the barbarians sack Rome?
Timeline in the wrong direction. Hannibal and the Punic Wars were prior to Sulla and Caesar.
-
Hopefully this is more along the lines of a culmination of Heth's grab for power/descent into paranoia and it leads to the Megas striking back in a serious way now that he is openly threatening their existence.
-
It would be awesome if they went there.
Awesome for Gallente RPers, perhaps. I think all but 2 or 3 Caldari RPers would quit.
-
It would be awesome if they went there.
Awesome for Gallente RPers, perhaps. I think all but 2 or 3 Caldari RPers would quit.
I think it would probably lead to a lot of us quitting political RP, at least. Given it would finish the job of making the faction homogeneous (and that was one of the interesting things about it, not being homogeneous). Plus, even with populist support, it wouldn't seem like a credible change to the structure of the State based on the information we have. At least to me.
-
it wouldn't seem like a credible change to the structure of the State based on the information we have.
More than a few us have been playing the angle of corporate confederation for a long time. Maybe we got it all wrong. We chose to play characters born of out of cyberpunk Zaibatsu dominated society, when CCP's intent all along was:
The Caldari are some sort of regimented warlike group. “Like Third Reich Germans mixed with Japanese industrialists and straightforward Finnish machinists,” Harðarson attempts to clarify, without success.
Essentially, the current story arc says to those wanting to play as supporters of a particular corporate power that they should actually choose the Federation, a government so dominated by corporate interest that their President is also the CEO/founder of one of its prime defense contractors.
-
Hopefully this is more along the lines of a culmination of Heth's grab for power/descent into paranoia and it leads to the Megas striking back in a serious way now that he is openly threatening their existence.
This. I agree with Silver. I'm getting the impression that CCP is planning to get rid of Heth for some reason, yet I cannot figure out what they have in store for us.
I only dream to a return to the previous corporate cold war state of affairs, the state being a melange of different interests and worldviews (Practicals, Patriots and Liberals). Still, whatever they do, I don't think they can do any worse than they did with Heth, so there is still hope! :)
(http://i50.tinypic.com/17z8na.jpg)
-
It would be awesome if they went there.
Awesome for Gallente RPers, perhaps. I think all but 2 or 3 Caldari RPers would quit.
A Caldari civil war would make Caldari people quit? Such timidity.
-
A Caldari civil war would make Caldari people quit? Such timidity.
I've been hearing for years that we Caldari should be grateful for all the internal conflict, bad press, and terrible leaders we have, as it allows room for more nuance and drama.
In that case, I would like to be generous and offer our more-than-abundant share to the other three factions. It hardly seems fair that we get to have all of this wonderful stuff. Let's see Roden overturning elections and bombarding planets, and Shakor setting up death camps for captured Amarrians, and then we can talk about whether the Caldari State needs more internal conflict and portrayal as the Eve version of North Korea.
In other words, your response is pretty much the same one I've had directed at me with every protest I've put up against CCP further mangling Caldari lore. Yeah, I'll quit RPing if the State gets turned into "the empire".
-
That's pretty fucking awesome April :D
-
Cheers mate... It was a project I started last year but because of real life issues I couldn't push forward. Basically it was an anti-Heth dissident movement whose aim was to put the 8 Megacorps back in charge thru the CEP (Hence the name 8th Ball... the ball that ends the game :D
Nice concept, pity I don't have the time to push it forward.
There is an in game channel called 8TH BALL with plenty of docs and information about the scope of the project. Pay me a visit!
-
Yes, we know Caesar, but he is one success story...
If the Diana Kim and the mega leaders all draw knives and stab Heth to death in the public forum, I'm not going to call that a 'success story.'
A Caldari civil war would make Caldari people quit? Such timidity.
In other words, your response is pretty much the same one I've had directed at me with every protest I've put up against CCP further mangling Caldari lore. Yeah, I'll quit RPing if the State gets turned into "the empire".
If the shoe fits...
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Yes, we know Caesar, but he is one success story...
If the Diana Kim and the mega leaders all draw knives and stab Heth to death in the public forum, I'm not going to call that a 'success story.'
But I do; and hopefully cyber-bitch-queen falls in to a man hole and dies. :lol: Joke a side. I really dont think CCP should fuck up the Caldari faction more (the same counts for the Khanid Kingdom faction). As on the topic 'success story.' Actually Caesar is, for the most part a success story; as he could gain his position and stay "quite popular" (If I quote you. http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4625.msg73059#msg73059). In that sense he and Octavian were more success full as Sulla or Catiline etc.....
P.S. I think it would be a fitting dead for Heth. To be killed be people which make then the "new"/"old" order. So thanks for the Idea... So If someone from CCP reads this, lead Heth die like Caesar.
-
Makkal: It isn't civil war, per se, that is the problem for me. It is that the situation with Heth is difficult to accept (in terms of being something that it makes sense would happen) in the first place. The extension of that into there being enough support for Heth against the megacorps that a civil war could even take place makes it worse.
Civil war - for example between some of the blocs or even between specific Megacorps would (or could) make sense (at least, minus Heth), and in fact there is a strong current through (pre-TEA) lore about that State that there is at least a cold war and a parallel covert war between some of them.
-
It's not a civil war happening, it's a civil war that makes no sense in terms of what we know of the Caldari.
That makes sense.
-
It depends entirely on their plans for Factional Warfare and how static they need to keep State space from a game mechanics perspective.
I think it will mostly affect RP, than actual mechanics. But who knows, they have some sort of "uprising" coming.
So to come down again; and dont de-rail this thread: How can Heth have "Success"? What could be the obstacles?
Umm, I didn't plan this thread about Heth, but well, since he *is* the central figure :)
I think there is already a story plotted about his death. Taken into account recent events and his health state, I don't think it is just a councidence. From my point of view, CCP is planning to kill him at one point, maybe making him die like a ceaser, if you wish.
But I don't know, if it will be before "making of empire" or after, and will someone took his place to "build" the empire.
The only obstacle I see is his indecisiveness lately. He started very nice with attack on Caldari Prime, but lately he doesn't act a lot. He didn't retaliate Gallente Federation for attack on titan (yes, Caldari have much more titans than one :) at least according to words of Yanala during the event), didn't took any action to prevent DMZ. Actually, nobody knows what he is doing except giving speeches. He won't get far with only speeches. In order for him to get success, he must start giving orders instead of speeches.
Awesome for Gallente RPers, perhaps. I think all but 2 or 3 Caldari RPers would quit.
And they say CCP is grimdark :ugh:
-
I've been hearing for years that we Caldari should be grateful for all the internal conflict, bad press, and terrible leaders we have, as it allows room for more nuance and drama.
In that case, I would like to be generous and offer our more-than-abundant share to the other three factions. It hardly seems fair that we get to have all of this wonderful stuff. Let's see Roden overturning elections and bombarding planets, and Shakor setting up death camps for captured Amarrians, and then we can talk about whether the Caldari State needs more internal conflict and portrayal as the Eve version of North Korea.
In other words, your response is pretty much the same one I've had directed at me with every protest I've put up against CCP further mangling Caldari lore. Yeah, I'll quit RPing if the State gets turned into "the empire".
As for me, something new is always better than something old. I don't know how it turns, but if it won't be 'same old *censored*', it will give me simply more ideas and reasons to RP.
From my point of view, any returning to "how it was before" is unrealistic, boring and meaningless, and, in fact, the only scenario that can hurt RP. Of course, it is only my perception of this, and if you don't like it, feel free to throw slipper at me.
-
April Knox
Well, that was quite nice poster for Caldari Rebels, however, one thing in it a bit bothers me.
It is a couple of words:
"True Caldari"
I will say what I think about it only here, IC-ly most probably I will mock at this with full prejudice~~. The story goes far away into another game, where there a group named "true *something*" (lets not delve into unnecessary details), where their concept of being "true" was quite ridiculous. Despite many counted me as one of them, I always was trying to mock the concept at any chance.
So, why this concept of being "true" bothers me? Simple. Because all we are just humans. We are same humans, that were during times of pharaohs, and we will be same tens thousands years in the future. With same dreams, same desires, same needs. You cannot name a roman true, if he lived in the Empire or Republic. True Russians weren't neither bolsheviks, nor officers. True Germans during WWII weren't nazi or anti-nazi. Humans are just humans, and nothing else. Humans can't be grouped into ones, who accept single ruler and others who don't.
As for Caldari, they didn't have Germany in 36 or Russia in 17, neither they had Roman Empire. But they had Raata Empire, that still inspires them. Single CEOs are already people, who hold whole power of "sub-states", megacorporations. And common caldari citizens don't even interact with other megacorp. They have single ruler - their CEO - all their life. They born and die with single ruler.
-
I don't recall a player named Lithium Flower. Do you post on the IGS under a different PC name?
-
A Civil War or a greater Caldari Empire won't stop me RPing, because I pay $15 a month and I enjoy RPing - but I don't see why I should play a Loyalist to a faction that isn't one I'd be Loyal to.
That said, if you don't RP with me, or don't want to, it probably won't affect YOUR game. :)
-
I don't recall a player named Lithium Flower. Do you post on the IGS under a different PC name?
Yes
A Civil War or a greater Caldari Empire won't stop me RPing, because I pay $15 a month and I enjoy RPing - but I don't see why I should play a Loyalist to a faction that isn't one I'd be Loyal to.
That said, if you don't RP with me, or don't want to, it probably won't affect YOUR game. :)
Nobody forces you to RP or to be a loyalist, Pieter (at least OOC ly :D) You can be whatever you like, possibilities are really unlimited.
What I would only ask you, is to not play "yourself" in a world of future. I am not a huge fan of RP-ing in style of "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court". When you need a decision to be made, don't ask yourself, what would you do. Ask, what your character would do.
-
I just thought this was all part of the plan where the Megacorps continue to do their own thing while leaving the Executor to embarrass himself further like the State's crazy old grandparent who is too busy disrobing himself in the middle of the street while screaming obscenities at the moon.
It just reads like any other Dictator who seeks to cultivate and romanticize some, "Glorious Past" to further their current ambitions. It's just that Heth never really could get the Megas to dismantle their corporate armies so I'm not sure how it would even work to create a neo-Raata Empire -- unless it's going to be a DT "Event".
That said, maybe they should go for it and just have the CPD and the Templis Dragonaurs become a new pirate/terrorist subfaction aligned against the State forever waxing lyrical about recapturing glories past. Then you can have the corporate State, the quasi anarchist Gurista and the ultra-nationalist Templis all united in a triumvirate of hate and violence against each other.
-
I too hope that we will not get back to pre TEA. I hope we will get back to something similar, but new essentially. It would be quite weird to get a "rollback" to an identical state of things. And it would make things stale.
Immersion is also part of an evolving and changing universe. What they did right with TEA was to bring changes. What they did less... right, was to bring changes so drastic that it completely changed what it meant to be loyal to X or Y, and moreover, to bring everything that we know happened in the novel (zombie queens, enehduannsomething, broker, deus ex machinas, etc).
-
I'm not a Caldari RP'er and I only recently started learning more about it since I wanted Anslo to be well rounded in terms of culture. However, I kind of don't like the potential places this could lead the State..
I mean if it's one way where the Mega's finally say 'nope' and banhammer Heth with a few missiles then hey whatever. But if they go the other route and turn it into some Megacorp evil Empire then... :S
-
Awesome for Gallente RPers, perhaps. I think all but 2 or 3 Caldari RPers would quit.
Orly.
When you need a decision to be made, don't ask yourself, what would you do. Ask, what your character would do.
That's kinda the problem Pieter described, isn't it? It's what makes it particularily hard for 'loyalist characters' to follow changing OOC interests of the player.
My personal, as a player, loyality to a given faction is far smaller than that of my character. After all I want to play something I consider entertaining and fun - this is bound to switch much easier than life-long loyalities of a character brought up in that system. She wouldn't jump ship once the ride gets bumpy. ;)
Re: "Raata 2.0"
I viewed it as Gesakaarin depictured. Typical ultranationalist dictator rhetoric. I do not see the megacorporations giving up sovereignity to flock to this particular cause. ;)
-
And what is the Federation doing? Their enemies are in social disorder, financial crisis and are lacking leadership while the Federation score major positive marks in those fields. Add to that a military that has performed flawless in the recent years, this stalemate feels fake.
On the other hand, Ishukone is likely a complete sellout. Which is supposed to give support for Heth when discovered.
-
Add to that a military that has performed flawless in the recent years, this stalemate feels fake.
I think your perception of flawless is not very correct, given that there have been some minor setbacks on the federal records. Serpentis glassing a city, that news article about low quality and morale in the armed forces, the drug thing. They've got their setbacks as well in that regard.
-
Ok, but minor setbacks are no excuse for not steamrolling your opposition when the advantage is clearly in your favor.
-
Personally I'd think the threat of being steamrolled would be a very unifying cause.
-
So why are we having this talk about the high likelihood of a Caldari civil war when the threat of being steamrolled by the Federation is already present?
-
But if they go the other route and turn it into some Megacorp evil Empire then... :S
Why it should be "evil" Empire, not just simple Empire? Star wars much?
It's just that Heth never really could get the Megas to dismantle their corporate armies so I'm not sure how it would even work to create a neo-Raata Empire -- unless it's going to be a DT "Event".
That's what really can cause Caldari "uprising", since commoners won't go against Heth. Corporate armies that are being dismantled? Easy!
As I see how it could work: if Heth makes new police force, based on Provists and TD, and simple declares obsolete "old" corporate armies, asking them to either join police, or put arms down. Some of them join, some of them put arms down, and some of them rebel, forming "new CEP", instead of old CEP, whose CEOs was bribed or replaced by Provists. How it can be done "mechanically"? Simple, half of existing corporate army station with mission agents change owner to "new police". Effect of "rebelling" displayed in standings between them. What events can be made? A couple of stations can "rebel" against change, so lots of peoples fight for station, which side wins, recieves the station (and then comes Grid with his fleet and gives station to rebels :lol:) But it is just my speculation, lets see what CCP will do about it :psyccp:
-
So why are we having this talk about the high likelihood of a Caldari civil war when the threat of being steamrolled by the Federation is already present?
The problem is that Heth is convinced that the "good of the State" = destruction of the Federation. Alternatively, he's basically out after power and the railing on the Union is his own excuse. Either of these now seem to require unifying all of the State behind his provists in more ways then a corporate Confederation, more along the lines of an Empire with himself as emperor. The CEP is ofc highly unhappy about this or should be. This is likely going to start a civil war - even if both know that the Federation in all likelihood would exploit this in some way.
It makes no sense for the Union to do so NOW - before anything has had a chance to happen. If they bother to get involved in any way that require armed warships it will be to charge in at the height of the internal struggle during, or maybe after, the worst of the fighting - letting the State weaken itself as much as possible before doing so.
Or maybe they decide to take the high-road, bask in good PR while 'staying true to their agreement with CONCORD' - ergo "do not invade other members" - or for all we know, use this as an excuse to pass a vote to CONCORD to stop the CEWPA war between State and Federation - even more good PR "We are the bringers of peace", "we never asked for this" and so on. There is plenty that the Fed could do to get involved and much that can roll in their benefit, in many ways - but invading now or getting involved before the Caldari has had a change to actually implode would not be a good idea in any case.
-
But if they go the other route and turn it into some Megacorp evil Empire then... :S
Why it should be "evil" Empire, not just simple Empire? Star wars much?
To nit-pick, the Empire itself was not technically 'evil' - it's leadership was. One of the things I enjoy about the SW extended universe is the separation between Sith and Empire so that both are no longer confused as the same thing.
Incidentally, a "Caldari Empire" would not be of any more questionable morality than the State already is even with Heth in charge of either - it would simply be the Caldari unified under a singular power as opposed to an amalgamation of 8 separate powers ruling together.
Ofc, the whole "thing" with what the Caldari currently is will be lost, and I just can't foresee CCP pissing on all their Pro-Caldari players and their PF like that, regardless of who claims otherwise among the player-base. It would make very little sense. Unless ofc, they intend to do a major re-vamp of PF and turn all the different factions into something different, and I see no such development in either the Federation or the Empire. *Maybe* there will be a radical change in the Republic, but then continuing to call it that has been questionable IC for a long time already. In short, so far we have the delusions of an NPC of questionable mental health who is desperate to remain in power and to strike down his hated enemies. NOTHING MORE indicates anything like what is detailed in here will happen, so the odds are terribly low even from the get-go.
On the other hand, if CCP officially announces their change-intentions tomorrow and that stuff like this WILL happen, I will go eat my own words, and I will like it, regardless of how bitter it will be.
-
Well, if the State goes down the Roman path to crowning an emperor it sort of brings up a new question.
Who gets to be Hannibal? When will the barbarians sack Rome?
Timeline in the wrong direction. Hannibal and the Punic Wars were prior to Sulla and Caesar.
<3
-
A few thoughts.
1. The State is not even nominally a democracy, and its equivalent of patricians and plebians is strictly informal (more like plutocrats and everybody else).
2. The State has no evident fear or hatred of kings, which was instrumental in getting Caesar killed. Tibus Heth basically already has imperial powers-- which appear to be on the wane along with his health and sanity.
3. You'd need someone with "authority" equivalent to Heth's to rise up in his place. There is no one like that on the present stage. Admittedly, Octavian didn't have that at the time, but we don't even have a Mark Antony.
4. The Caldari tend to pull together in a crisis, not apart, especially in the face of war with a foreign power and ESPECIALLY the Gallente. In order for a Caldari civil war to go hot, their borders would need to be secure.
5. That said, the Caldari have had at least one empire before-- the Raata. The resemblance to imperial Rome, however, is ... ambiguous. It may have had more in common with imperial China. If the megacorporations were to go to war with one another, become militarized and less profit-driven, and thus even more feudal than they already are, I could see the eventual victor (after, basically, a "warring states period") establishing something of that sort.
This is never going to happen while the Caldari have an active external foe to make common cause about. The furthest it is likely to go is deadly bickering among the upper echelons, possibly culminating in something like a second Morning of Reason.
-
So why are we having this talk about the high likelihood of a Caldari civil war when the threat of being steamrolled by the Federation is already present?
Because at the moment there is no threat of being steamrolled.
1) The Federation is not able to do that*.
2) CONCORD would likely intervene.
3) See 1)
*I know, it generates strong opinions, but a war against the Caldari on sovereign territory would be very slow, costly and by no means a guaranteed win. Once the first easy successes have been made, very likely not something the federation's public would want to endure. If the federation would attempt to use the current, even escalated, internal conflict in the State to actively go to a full-out war you can be sure that this'll have all the megacorporations and the CPD to put their differences aside for now - one way or the other.
That aside it's not that the Caldari Navy, not even counting the megacorporate security branches, is incapable of defending the borders. I mean, hey, having that highly militarized system should have some benefits, else it'd be a total joke, no?
-
That said, maybe they should go for it and just have the CPD and the Templis Dragonaurs become a new pirate/terrorist subfaction aligned against the State forever waxing lyrical about recapturing glories past. Then you can have the corporate State, the quasi anarchist Gurista and the ultra-nationalist Templis all united in a triumvirate of hate and violence against each other.
New outlaw faction? Now that would be sweet.
-
Not sure, but i think all these developments are happening to set the stage for DUST514.
You need some sort of ultra-radical merc group present in all 4 factions in order to provide the chaotic evil vs lawful good opposites.
Tibus Heth may die, Mentas Blaque could defect, Karin Midular finally dies and Shakor has to deal with the backlash, and last but not least something puts Jamyl in a very tight spot.
The empires are still at war and fighting tooth and nail, but their "inner" conflicts freezes any large scale effort to the point all chips are put on "loyalist" capsuleers, and since we are sooooo predicatable (pun intended) anything can happen from then on.
-
Because at the moment there is no threat of being steamrolled.
1) The Federation is not able to do that*.
2) CONCORD would likely intervene.
3) See 1)
*I know, it generates strong opinions, but a war against the Caldari on sovereign territory would be very slow, costly and by no means a guaranteed win. Once the first easy successes have been made, very likely not something the federation's public would want to endure. If the federation would attempt to use the current, even escalated, internal conflict in the State to actively go to a full-out war you can be sure that this'll have all the megacorporations and the CPD to put their differences aside for now - one way or the other.
That aside it's not that the Caldari Navy, not even counting the megacorporate security branches, is incapable of defending the borders. I mean, hey, having that highly militarized system should have some benefits, else it'd be a total joke, no?
Worth noting as well that "The Citadel" is named so for a reason. The Caldari set it up in such a way that the State is highly defensible. I'm not sure how or if this is reflected ingame, but so it has been said. Perhaps it has a strategically ingenious stargate network arrangement allowing for optimal deployment, or maybe it has some extra built in defenses, or maybe there's just a lot of fleets at shipyards packed inside.
Who knows, but it's clearly stated (and this is the ONLY region ingame that has a description of this tone) that The Citadel is a fortress region, explicitly designed to resist invasion.
Acting as both an ideological fort as well as a physical impediment to invasion, the Citadel is among the most well fortified regions in the cluster. Despite their penchant for squabbling and competing with each other, nearly every Caldari corporation keeps a presence here, all working together to diligently defend their home. After having been ejected from one homeland, the Caldari are not about to suffer such a fate again. The Citadel stands as proud testament to that resolve.
-
4. The Caldari tend to pull together in a crisis, not apart, especially in the face of war with a foreign power and ESPECIALLY the Gallente. In order for a Caldari civil war to go hot, their borders would need to be secure.
This!
I don't see this civil war as a real civil war, more like a conflict between "old" and "new" police forces (like how I imagine it could happen). If shouldn't touch caldari population (with a small exception of corporate armies might shoot at pro-Heth civilian meetings, and counterwise, templis dragonaurs might shoot at pro-old-CEP corporate meetings) and the Navy wouldn't intervene while provists and TD will be having the upper hand. Navy continue bashing the Federation, while new provist and TD police bash remains of old corporate armies.
But of course, I agree, that Caldari shouldn't go war against each other while there is a foreign enemy. Unfortunately, it's not in our hands, but in hands of CCP.
-
I don't see this civil war as a real civil war, more like a conflict between "old" and "new" police forces (like how I imagine it could happen). If shouldn't touch caldari population (with a small exception of corporate armies might shoot at pro-Heth civilian meetings, and counterwise, templis dragonaurs might shoot at pro-old-CEP corporate meetings) and the Navy wouldn't intervene while provists and TD will be having the upper hand. Navy continue bashing the Federation, while new provist and TD police bash remains of old corporate armies.
I'd actually see the Dragonaurs and Provist forces getting the short end of this particular stick. The Dragonaurs are an old and broadly recognized terrorist organization that has been banned for most of its existence and probably isn't thought too well of by most, even now. The Provists are a trans-corporate nationalist organization that drew its power from a groundswell of public support-- and there are growing signs that said groundswell is well and truly spent.
By contrast, the corporate security forces are old and well-respected entities with tremendously deep roots in Caldari culture and politics that have been preparing for decades to wage a civil war against one another. Consider the respective backgrounds of the Eagle and Cerberus HACs. Repurposing those resources to take down the Provists and Dragonaurs is pretty much as simple as switching targets.
The messy possibility is that some of the corporations would back the Provists, but the corporate faction that actually liked Heth best was the Practicals, and they're already on the move against him. See, e.g., NOH's recent visit to Caldari Prime.
Edit:
Oh, and this is so not going to happen: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-proclaims-vision-for-single-solidified-state/ (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-proclaims-vision-for-single-solidified-state/)
CCP has shown more appetite for expanding canon than for rewriting it. Fundamental changes to Caldari society (ditching the corporations, which Heth is clearly indicating a desire to do) would require complete rewrites of so many carefully-thought-out, detailed articles it's not even funny. It would replace them with something quite a bit less interesting, as well.
-
CCP has shown more appetite for expanding canon than for rewriting it. Fundamental changes to Caldari society (ditching the corporations, which Heth is clearly indicating a desire to do) would require complete rewrites of so many carefully-thought-out, detailed articles it's not even funny. It would replace them with something quite a bit less interesting, as well.
Have to agree on this. We already have one unified single-sovereign empire. Not to mention that they've very much played up his illness in recent news events. My biggest thought is that they'll be killing him off soon-ish, given how exhausted he is just about every time he opens his mouth.
-
CCP has shown more appetite for expanding canon than for rewriting it. Fundamental changes to Caldari society (ditching the corporations, which Heth is clearly indicating a desire to do) would require complete rewrites of so many carefully-thought-out, detailed articles it's not even funny. It would replace them with something quite a bit less interesting, as well.
Have to agree on this. We already have one unified single-sovereign empire. Not to mention that they've very much played up his illness in recent news events. My biggest thought is that they'll be killing him off soon-ish, given how exhausted he is just about every time he opens his mouth.
Also supporting the idea that he is simply trying to maintain his crippling power-base, and failing at it. Heth is swiftly running up to the finale of his impact on EVE PF.
I do wonder what players like Diana Kim will do when/if Heth dies.
-
I do wonder what players like Diana Kim will do when/if Heth dies.
Your best bet would be to ask. Isn't it what RP for, eh? :lol:
-
Heth may die, but his cause preceded him and will survive him. It would actually be neat to see some flat-out Templis Dragonaur loyalists around, even if they're not running the State.
-
Exactly. After all, the Roman Empire did not fall apart when Brutus plunged in the knife...
-
Exactly. After all, the Roman Empire did not fall apart when Brutus plunged in the knife...
The Empire didn't exist in 44 B.C.
The beginning of the reign of Augustus is generally considered the behind off Imperial rule, but at the time Augustus was considered first among equals (it quickly went down hill from there) The murder of Julius Caesar was followed by a civil war between Marcus Antonius and Octavian Caesar which might be considered the fall of the Republic.
-
That's exactly what I mean. Both Julius Caesar and Heth sought to replace a republic (very loosely applied in the case of the State - I'm thinking the CEP might be considered analogous to the Roman Senate, with the mega-corporations as Senators) with an empire. In Caesar's case, his death did not stop this from happening. Likewise, I think it would be both unrealistic and unsatisfying if Heth's death led to a simple rollback of the clock, as it were.
-
It won't roll back the clock, I don't think, but I don't expect the State to become what Heth envisions, which would be pretty close to the "space Nazis" I keep hearing the Caldari described as by thems as doesn't gets the nuances.
("Executor? We've just received formal notice from the law firm of Bonnmum, Shutem, and Burnham, counsel for the Helghast. They're accusing us of, and I quote, 'Bogarting our schtick.'")
-
Heth may die, but his cause preceded him and will survive him. It would actually be neat to see some flat-out Templis Dragonaur loyalists around, even if they're not running the State.
I don't know Caldari history all that well except as it intersects with Gallente history. Was there a strong Provist/unity movement before Heth? I don't really recall running across them much prior to Heth while researching the lore guide.
-
I volunteer to be a barbarian sacking Jita 4-4! ...err, I mean Rome.
:yar:
-
I don't know Caldari history all that well except as it intersects with Gallente history. Was there a strong Provist/unity movement before Heth? I don't really recall running across them much prior to Heth while researching the lore guide.
Caldari unity is cultural and pervasive. For a good if somewhat abstract sense of how it works, read the chronicle "Cold Wind." What is said of the Deteis and Civire there applies just as easily to the megas. They bicker like family, but they are family just the same.
Heth's bit is the ugly vein of nationalist pride and xenophobia underlying the Caldari cultural identity. He is rumored to have been (and canonically was) a member of the Templis Dragonaurs, the nationalist, racist Caldari terrorist assholes who bombed Nouvelle Rouvenor (sp?) and touched off the Great War.
You can think of them as militant isolationists who don't even want foreigners as neighbors. If you see a bunch of Caldari acting like xenophobic jerks, be it bombing Gallentean underwater cities, persecuting ethnic Intaki who sided with the Caldari in the Great War (thus leading to the founding of Mordu's Legion), or the kind of shenanigans Heth gets up to, you can be pretty sure they're either behind it or applauding enthusiastically.
They represent the worst of the Caldari (they ARE the fascist streak), and they've long been banned for very good reason. It may say something about the width of that streak that they have never been successfully wiped out.
-
For a good if somewhat abstract sense of how it works, read the chronicle "Cold Wind."
Cold Wind (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cold_Wind_(Chronicle)) is written from a particular perspective, the Lai Dai perspective, and therefore its message may not align with the views of all the other megas.
From ”Two Bloodlines, one Race: the Raata spirit in the Deteis and Civire soul”, Lai Dai Press, YR87. Reprinted with permission.
-
All presses in the State are owned by one mega or another.
Everything is.
We have no indication that Cold Wind is a Lai Dai story, only-- but it is of a kind that the Patriots would be apt to appreciate.
For a good sense of the way the State works, examine closely the chronicle on State factionalism. The difference between the factions is not precisely over worldview; it's over how best to advance the interests of the State.
The Liberals believe in a policy of open trade-- not for the good of those traded with, but for the greater good of the State.
The Patriots believe in what Aria used to call "porcupine diplomacy," believing in a strong military and isolationist trading policies. Notice that these two, while diametric opposites in their area of policy disagreement, disagree primarily on whether to open borders or close them. They do not differ on, for example, the proper form of State governance, or (very much) on how the Caldari themselves should live.
The Practicals are the exception to all of this: they're better described as "looters," and are the State faction with the absolute least sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of the Caldari. They're kind of infamous for this. Fortunately, they are few in number, but I find it telling that they're the only State faction that was actually happy to see Heth's rise, even if his beliefs superficially seem to align more closely with those of the Patriots.
The Patriots may have long kind of wanted to do what Heth has been getting up to, but they have historically been wise enough not to do it.
-
Sorry, I failed to get my point across. The Chronicle is not written from a neutral point of view and could be viewed as bias supporting the Patriot, Lai Dai view of the world.
-
The Practicals are the exception to all of this: they're better described as "looters," and are the State faction with the absolute least sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of the Caldari. They're kind of infamous for this. Fortunately, they are few in number, but I find it telling that they're the only State faction that was actually happy to see Heth's rise, even if his beliefs superficially seem to align more closely with those of the Patriots.
Practical corporations are, from largest to smallest, Sukuuvestaa, CBD and Nugoeihuvi. Of these, Sukuuvestaa is the second-largest corp in the State, and the largest real estate corporation. CBD is amongst the largest import/export corps in New Eden, I think, and their retail division is alright. Nugoeihuvi is small-ish, but it is the largest media corp in the State, and owns the Expert brand, of which Expert Distribution retail is everywhere. So, there is a lot of Patriots, almost certainly many more than Liberals (though we do not have the numbers).
Though yes, Practicals could be considered the embodiment of the hypercapitalist side of the State: The primary goal is making profit, period. They supported Heth, because at least initially, Heth was good at improving profits. His changes were probably also creating a nice cover for some less-than-legal deals, if you want to find a grimdark side on everything. Lots of things going around, so easier to miss a few minor details.
Finally, one might claim that Ishukone was Practical before Gariushi took over - though their "free trade" policies would have probably been heritage of the capsule and CONCORD regulations forcing them to sell the tech to other empires.
-
The Patriots believe in what Aria used to call "porcupine diplomacy," believing in a strong military and isolationist trading policies.
Aria, IIRC, it's the Practicals with the Mercantilist bent, not the Patriots. As I recall, the Patriots generally work on a case-by-case basis (trade with allies, not so much with enemies).
-
Aria, IIRC, it's the Practicals with the Mercantilist bent, not the Patriots. As I recall, the Patriots generally work on a case-by-case basis (trade with allies, not so much with enemies).
My impression's always been that the Patriots worked on a general philosophy of "take care of our own, first, last, and always," while the Practicals just went with whatever suited them best.
And I keep forgetting-- is it the Liberal bloc that just has two megas? I keep thinking it's the Practicals.
-
As I understand it, the Patriots believe the State should be completely isolationist. The Practicals believe in trade with outsiders - but only on terms that benefit the State and hurt the Jaiji. Liberals believe that trade that aids both sides is possible, but the State should benefit the most.
-
And I keep forgetting-- is it the Liberal bloc that just has two megas?
Ishukone and Hyasyoda.
As I understand it, the Patriots believe the State should be completely isolationist. The Practicals believe in trade with outsiders - but only on terms that benefit the State and hurt the Jaiji. Liberals believe that trade that aids both sides is possible, but the State should benefit the most.
Practicals are mostly concerned with the profit of their enterprises through whatever means necessary.
Liberals want to encourage free trade and support the idea of win-win.
Patriots want a strong State (across the instruments of power) in order to never again be subject to the desires of outsiders. In other words, Patriots support the economic policies that strengthen the State's position internationally most directly.
-
Well, if the State goes down the Roman path to crowning an emperor it sort of brings up a new question.
Who gets to be Hannibal? When will the barbarians sack Rome?
Timeline in the wrong direction. Hannibal and the Punic Wars were prior to Sulla and Caesar.
So who are the Visigoths then?
-
Well, if the State goes down the Roman path to crowning an emperor it sort of brings up a new question.
Who gets to be Hannibal? When will the barbarians sack Rome?
Timeline in the wrong direction. Hannibal and the Punic Wars were prior to Sulla and Caesar.
So who are the Visigoths then?
I'll be over here with my copy of Decline and Fall, crying. :(
-
So, the Garden Lady CEO is that Cleopetra lady what got bitten in the ass?
-
Finally, one might claim that Ishukone was Practical before Gariushi took over - though their "free trade" policies would have probably been heritage of the capsule and CONCORD regulations forcing them to sell the tech to other empires.
They were liberals, just not in common, but in Caldari sense. Gariushi built them according to his own vision. Just like Heth made his own version of patriots, Gariushi made his own version of liberals.
-
Well fuck. (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-declares-plan-to-nationalize-megacorps-kk-revealed-to-be-in-financial-straits/)
-
Well fuck. (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-declares-plan-to-nationalize-megacorps-kk-revealed-to-be-in-financial-straits/)
I don't see this going anywhere productive for Heth. It may look bad when placed in a paranoid context of this thread... but nah. The other Seven are like "lol cool story bro", KK is out of money, and Heth is out of political currency. He's barely even alive right now.
If there is a civil war, it will be a very short one.
-
Well fuck. (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-declares-plan-to-nationalize-megacorps-kk-revealed-to-be-in-financial-straits/)
I don't see this going anywhere productive for Heth. It may look bad when placed in a paranoid context of this thread... but nah. The other Seven are like "lol cool story bro", KK is out of money, and Heth is out of political currency. He's barely even alive right now.
If there is a civil war, it will be a very short one.
I am thinking beyond that. What happens when the pendulum swings the other way.
For example, is Ishukone actually independent of the Federation? Or will demands from the President and Senate cause Ishukone to bend to the will of the Federation?
Can Lai Dai actually survive the collapse of KK, or will it become isolated and bankrupt by its market competition with Ishukone and political opposition from SuVee?
Is SuVee interested in protecting the Sov of Hyasyoda, Wiyrkomi, etc? Or will they take what they want in the State as payment for debts (at gunpoint)?
The civil war shouldn't be simple and the various outcomes I can think of are all worse for the State than the Second Raata Empire.
-
I am thinking beyond that. What happens when the pendulum swings the other way.
For example, is Ishukone actually independent of the Federation? Or will demands from the President and Senate cause Ishukone to bend to the will of the Federation?
Yes to the first, no to the second. I hope. At least, if CCP pulls that shit on us, I'll send Falcon a strongly worded mail and promptly quit Caldari RP.
Can Lai Dai actually survive the collapse of KK, or will it become isolated and bankrupt by its market competition with Ishukone and political opposition from SuVee?
Is Lai Dai indebted to KK? If not, then I don't see why they wouldn't possibly benefit from KK's collapse. Picking up the scraps and solidifying power. Wiyrkomi is also sortof a 'friend' in the Patriot bloc. At any rate, I doubt we'll see KK collapse completely. I think Haatakan Oirtisuu (sp?) will make a comeback.
Is SuVee interested in protecting the Sov of Hyasyoda, Wiyrkomi, etc? Or will they take what they want in the State as payment for debts (at gunpoint)?
Why would they be? Hyasyoda is Liberal and Wiyrkomi is Patriot. SuVee doesn't even care about its own Practical allies.
The civil war shouldn't be simple and the various outcomes I can think of are all worse for the State than the Second Raata Empire.
The civil war will be the other Seven beating down a power grab attempt by Heth and nothing more.
The CEP is still a functioning and effective entity, one without any visible extra squabbling among the other Seven. I have no reason to think that everything will suddenly fall apart and everybody will suddenly be at each other's throats once Heth is removed from power and the extremely unlikely event of a complete collapse by KK.
-
Kat Kat... Ishukone is no longer the flat-broke Mega. :3
-
Kat Kat... Ishukone is no longer the flat-broke Mega. :3
OMG!!!
Thank you for pointing that out to me. ♥
-
Kat Kat... Ishukone is no longer the flat-broke Mega. :3
OMG!!!
Thank you for pointing that out to me. ♥
Buddy can you spare an iskie? :)
-
Kat Kat... Ishukone is no longer the flat-broke Mega. :3
OMG!!!
Thank you for pointing that out to me. ♥
Buddy can you spare an iskie? :)
Of course, dear. Applications for I-RED are located at our field HQ in 98Q-8O. See you soon!
-
Well, this certainly looks good for Sukuuvestaa, so long as these times of financial hardship for Kaalakiota don't turn into the Greek bailout fiasco of IRL, leaving any cross corporate loans defaulted. The way i see it, the other seven gain little of KK falls, but much if KK is indebted to them to the point of reviewing their leadership/ownership so as not to default on their State obligations.
-
KK being broke is bad for the State. These aren't just companies, they're also strange nations. Does the State see a difference between a laid-off employee-citizen and a fired employee-citizen?
Though part of me wonders if they'd be willing to sell their debt to the Kingdom. :cube:
-
If Tibus Heth is Caesar, does that make Vuld Haupt the second coming of Christ?
Oh man, I hope Eve isn't just a sci-fi retelling of the bible :p
-
KK being broke is bad for the State. These aren't just companies, they're also strange nations. Does the State see a difference between a laid-off employee-citizen and a fired employee-citizen?
Though part of me wonders if they'd be willing to sell their debt to the Kingdom. :cube:
The State already sold its debt to the Empire about 5 years ago.
-
Caldari Empire incoming, Heth eats all the megas :3
-
KK being broke is bad for the State. These aren't just companies, they're also strange nations. Does the State see a difference between a laid-off employee-citizen and a fired employee-citizen?
Though part of me wonders if they'd be willing to sell their debt to the Kingdom. :cube:
The State already sold its debt to the Empire about 5 years ago.
The State isn't KK.
-
At this point, I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy KK's debt. The only reason to do that is if you think it will be repaid -- and if their business plan is to keep pouring money down the black hole that is the CPD, I can't imagine anyone sees some sort of return on their investment. If they can't make debt payments to CFU, that is not going to be good for them. Depending on how vindictive the other megas are feeling, a CFU "repossession" of KK assets could get very bloody indeed.
On other words...ding-dong, the witch is dead. Let the feeding frenzy begin.
-
KK being broke is bad for the State. These aren't just companies, they're also strange nations. Does the State see a difference between a laid-off employee-citizen and a fired employee-citizen?
Though part of me wonders if they'd be willing to sell their debt to the Kingdom. :cube:
The State already sold its debt to the Empire about 5 years ago.
The State isn't KK.
No, but KK was likely a major beneficiary of those funds.
-
At this point, I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy KK's debt. The only reason to do that is if you think it will be repaid -- and if their business plan is to keep pouring money down the black hole that is the CPD, I can't imagine anyone sees some sort of return on their investment.
That assumes Heth and the CPD will continue to exist and be in charge of KK. I don't think that's likely at this point.
If they can't make debt payments to CFU, that is not going to be good for them. Depending on how vindictive the other megas are feeling, a CFU "repossession" of KK assets could get very bloody indeed.
On other words...ding-dong, the witch is dead. Let the feeding frenzy begin.
Which is why KK has a large incentive to sell its debt to someone outside the State.
-
Which is why KK has a large incentive to sell its debt to someone outside the State.
That sort of requires someone else to think that buying it is a good idea. As I understand it, they're basically refinancing, by taking money from the people they're "selling" their debt to, and giving it to the people who currently hold their debt.
The only way I'd buy their debt is if I was getting a pretty good discount, or a over-the-odds return, since I'm not convinced they'll be able to pay it back. If KK can't get more than they need to pay back their current debts, then it doesn't solve their problem. The political cost of owing the other mega-corps favours might be less than the cost of having to pay over the odds for debt outside the State.
-
Why would you think they wouldn't be able to buy it back? It's a megacorp that's existed for several centuries and is one of the largest and most powerful in the State.
That would probably be a good RoE for the Kingdom as I assume its planetary currencies are worth less than KK's.
-
Kat Kat... Ishukone is no longer the flat-broke Mega. :3
OMG!!!
Thank you for pointing that out to me. ♥
Which may be because they received a Roden Shipyards/Federation backed bailout - :P
-
Why would you think they wouldn't be able to buy it back? It's a megacorp that's existed for several centuries and is one of the largest and most powerful in the State.
That would probably be a good RoE for the Kingdom as I assume its planetary currencies are worth less than KK's.
It's technically illegal to trade KK currency for anything other than ISK, and only then in State-sanctioned exchanges. Something tells me it isn't being traded particularly highly in unsanctioned exchanges either, now that it seems clear they have nothing to back it up. The number of centuries it has lasted means nothing if it looks like it's about to get carved up and sold for scrap to the rest of the megacorporations. I can't see anyone wanting to buy its debt right now unless they got such a good deal that the risk was outweighed by the potential payoff...which just means that KK is trading a short term problem for a long term one. Granted, that is pretty much Heth's MO at this point, but I suspect the Board of Directors is getting pretty fucking tired of putting up with that shit right now.
-
The Board of Directors is getting pretty fucking tired of putting up with that shit right now.
But from what we know, it seems he has a significant controlling stake in KK.
-
But from what we know, it seems he has a significant controlling stake in KK.
At some point, that will cease to matter, whether he gives his stake up voluntarily or not.
-
Sounds like a good time to suggest funding KK - in exchange for a humble share of stock.
-
Well, that's sort of what stocks are for, after all.
I think at this point the Caldari State is pretty well safe from becoming the Caldari Empire. We've gone from discussing whether Heth's power is waxing or waning to discussing whether he should get his tea with one lump (upside the head, possibly) or two.
-
I wonder if the Dear Executor realized the following conundrum to his Imperial ambitions:
1. Caldari Funds Unlimited manages the majority of State pension funds (Probably via some form of superannuation scheme where workers put a percentage of their earnings towards CFU portfolios it manages)
2. Kaalakiota under Heth takes out what might be rather massive loans to underwrite the war against the Fed.
3. Kaalakiota is currently in a position where it seems to be heavily debt-ridden to both the Empire and the CFU.
4. Kaalakiota does not have the liquid capital to repay its debt to the CFU for a variety of reasons.
So now I wonder how the workers of the State and especially Kaalakiota are going to support the Executor when a cursory look at their pension and retirement funds will show their decline and even complete disappearance.
Right now I think Heth is going to get consumed by some very pissed off Kaalakiota employees because it seems to be a common thing for employees to purchase stock in their parent company out of their wages in addition to having CFU managed funds to retire into and KK is apparently nose-diving under CEO Heth. Then, once KK is under new management it probably ends up surviving because its debt has to be purchased by the CEP members if only because that very same debt exposes CFU to failure - and if CFU goes under then so does the rest of the State financial sector.
My thoughts anyway on the future.
-
Why would you think they wouldn't be able to buy it back? It's a megacorp that's existed for several centuries and is one of the largest and most powerful in the State.
That would probably be a good RoE for the Kingdom as I assume its planetary currencies are worth less than KK's.
So you're saying they're... too big to fail? :D
OOCly, I'm intrigued by the direction this is going. It would have been an easy cop-out to simply say "Heth nationalizes all the megacorps, long live teh Caldari Empiiiiire". It's interesting to say "Heth wants to nationalize all the megacorps to form teh Caldari Empiiiiire. Oh, and by the way, on his watch KK has funneled all its money into the Protectorate. It's unsure if it can even make its next debt payment."
If I were, say, the head of Lai Dai, I'd be making some phone calls to the KK board with "offers" of cash "assistance" in exchange for a huge percentage of the company.
ICly, as a mercenary fighting for what is turning out to be a potentially bankrupt megacorp, Shin is starting to get a little eye twitch.
-
Why would you think they wouldn't be able to buy it back? It's a megacorp that's existed for several centuries and is one of the largest and most powerful in the State.
That would probably be a good RoE for the Kingdom as I assume its planetary currencies are worth less than KK's.
So you're saying they're... too big to fail? :D
No.
I'm saying that companies can, and do, bounce back from being in the red. Simply being 'in debt' is not the end of the world.
I'm saying that if you're in a country with a weaker currency, buying the debt of a nation with a stronger currency tends to be attractive.
I'm saying that firing ones CEO and restructuring is something companies do all the time to please their stockholders.
-
Oh, I'm not disagreeing. I'm hoping CCP gives us a chron about an angry shareholder's meeting, soon.
-
At this point, I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy KK's debt. The only reason to do that is if you think it will be repaid -- and if their business plan is to keep pouring money down the black hole that is the CPD, I can't imagine anyone sees some sort of return on their investment. If they can't make debt payments to CFU, that is not going to be good for them. Depending on how vindictive the other megas are feeling, a CFU "repossession" of KK assets could get very bloody indeed.
On other words...ding-dong, the witch is dead. Let the feeding frenzy begin.
Russia 1917 scenario. Caldari revolution. Megas no more.
Heth: - Sorry, guys, what debts? We are different country!
-
Russia 1917 scenario. Caldari revolution. Megas no more.
Heth: - Sorry, guys, what debts? We are different country!
In order to do that the people in power have to want that...and KK doesn't owe its money to someone else, it owes it to CFU.
Also, the other megacorps have the force of arms to effect a "repossession". That isn't going to work too well.
-
Russia 1917 scenario. Caldari revolution. Megas no more.
Heth: - Sorry, guys, what debts? We are different country!
In order to do that the people in power have to want that...and KK doesn't owe its money to someone else, it owes it to CFU.
Also, the other megacorps have the force of arms to effect a "repossession". That isn't going to work too well.
It isn't like Russia 1917 happened overnight. It took 5 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War) and the outcome was far from guaranteed.
So the question becomes whether or not there is still sufficient support (ie the CPD & HG) to put up a fight and sufficient lack of opposition from various other powers.
The important departure from the Russia 1917 scenario however is that the Red Revolution was not attempting to also fight the Germans. The Revolution signaled Russia's exit from WWI.
In the case of the Caldari, the Revolutionary wants to maintain the war and effect internal change. A much more difficult task.
-
ICly, as a mercenary fighting for what is turning out to be a potentially bankrupt megacorp, Shin is starting to get a little eye twitch.
Have you heard the Good Word of our Commander Muriya Mordu?
I'm saying that firing ones CEO and restructuring is something companies do all the time to please their stockholders.
Caldari corporations are commonly self-owned, or at least mostly owned by the upper management. This means that if they go rotten, it is much harder to oust the leadership. (Which is why I'd love to see people offer to offer to finance Heth for an exchange of his shares - though he's not that desperate yet. Once he's out of his shares, he's on extremely shaky ground.)
-
Russia 1917 scenario. Caldari revolution. Megas no more.
Heth: - Sorry, guys, what debts? We are different country!
In order to do that the people in power have to want that...and KK doesn't owe its money to someone else, it owes it to CFU.
Also, the other megacorps have the force of arms to effect a "repossession". That isn't going to work too well.
It isn't like Russia 1917 happened overnight. It took 5 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War) and the outcome was far from guaranteed.
So the question becomes whether or not there is still sufficient support (ie the CPD & HG) to put up a fight and sufficient lack of opposition from various other powers.
The important departure from the Russia 1917 scenario however is that the Red Revolution was not attempting to also fight the Germans. The Revolution signaled Russia's exit from WWI.
In the case of the Caldari, the Revolutionary wants to maintain the war and effect internal change. A much more difficult task.
Bolshevik revolution in 1917 was in fact overnight. It was a planned coup d'etat, pro-democratic provisional government was arrested (right before they started election) and all communication centers were taken under control. Civil war started as consequences of bolshevik policies, not their attempt to come to power.
Although, indeed, communists were going to stop the war, there are other similarities in history, where despotic government came to power with different goal: to start the war. Third Reich. Oh, and peoples voted for them. And it wasn't difficult task, you just have to ignite hatred in peoples hearts, and they will gladly follow you right into the slaughterhouse.
-
Actually I kind of hope Heth succeeds. I've never really seen the appeal of the Mega-Corporate State. Maybe my background in Shadowrun made me biased but I always had thoughts that an ultra capitalist socity would end up with the people on the bottom rung of the ladder being basically indentured servants.
There are (or were) plenty of entries in the lore that stated it was basically impossible for anyone to move from their mega-corp, they depended on the corp for just about everything, their wages in corporate script (basically useless elsewhere) then most of that was sucked back by the corps for services rendered.
I guess I've always seen the state as practicing slavery without the name, and someone needed to kick over those ivory towers the members of the board sat in.
Up until The Broker made his appearance I LIKED what Heth was doing in TEA, I thought it a good and necessary thing.
Burn down the mega's lets have a new Raata Empire.
/me hides
-
Actually I kind of hope Heth succeeds. I've never really seen the appeal of the Mega-Corporate State. Maybe my background in Shadowrun made me biased but I always had thoughts that an ultra capitalist socity would end up with the people on the bottom rung of the ladder being basically indentured servants.
There are (or were) plenty of entries in the lore that stated it was basically impossible for anyone to move from their mega-corp, they depended on the corp for just about everything, their wages in corporate script (basically useless elsewhere) then most of that was sucked back by the corps for services rendered.
I guess I've always seen the state as practicing slavery without the name, and someone needed to kick over those ivory towers the members of the board sat in.
Up until The Broker made his appearance I LIKED what Heth was doing in TEA, I thought it a good and necessary thing.
Burn down the mega's lets have a new Raata Empire.
/me hides
The Caldari State certainly did practice wage slavery, and probably still does in places. Without Heth, it's likely it'll return to that as a more or less global pattern sooner or later, and we can see the whole populist revolt thing play out in a different hat ... in, say, a few decades. Possibly a couple hundred years. The Caldari have a high pain threshold (and I like to think that their corporate leadership is selfish, not stupid).
My problem with Heth is very simply the fascism. An unchecked fascist dictatorship is simply not interesting, and one that is attempting to restore the semi-mythic glory of an ancient lost empire is simply par for the fascist course. Space Nazis fit in well with the "Killzone" universe, but I have no use for them in Eve Online. They're too simple.
A quasi-feudal corporate state with suppressed fascist tendencies, now, THAT'S interesting. Whether it's a nice place to live (and it looks like it's a lot more meritocratic than it was pre-Heth, even if his reforms remain a promise only partially fulfilled) is relevant mostly for rhetorical purposes.
-
Actually I kind of hope Heth succeeds. I've never really seen the appeal of the Mega-Corporate State. Maybe my background in Shadowrun made me biased but I always had thoughts that an ultra capitalist socity would end up with the people on the bottom rung of the ladder being basically indentured servants.
There are (or were) plenty of entries in the lore that stated it was basically impossible for anyone to move from their mega-corp, they depended on the corp for just about everything, their wages in corporate script (basically useless elsewhere) then most of that was sucked back by the corps for services rendered.
I guess I've always seen the state as practicing slavery without the name, and someone needed to kick over those ivory towers the members of the board sat in.
Up until The Broker made his appearance I LIKED what Heth was doing in TEA, I thought it a good and necessary thing.
Burn down the mega's lets have a new Raata Empire.
/me hides
(http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u7/angrymob.jpg)
-
Maybe my background in Shadowrun made me biased but I always had thoughts that an ultra capitalist socity would end up with the people on the bottom rung of the ladder being basically indentured servants.
There are (or were) plenty of entries in the lore that stated it was basically impossible for anyone to move from their mega-corp, they depended on the corp for just about everything, their wages in corporate script (basically useless elsewhere) then most of that was sucked back by the corps for services rendered.
I guess I've always seen the state as practicing slavery without the name, and someone needed to kick over those ivory towers the members of the board sat in.
Hasn't it always been the case ?