Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 08 Jul 2012, 10:15
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I dislike making RL comparisons these days; maybe if I wasn't a literature retard I could make comparisons to other sci-fi sources (like Peter F Hamilton). There's certainly a lot of 1960s-era sci-fi vibes with the Gallente, at least. Mass Effect is a 'visualizing aid' I sometimes go with (since all we see in-game is spaceships and a captain's quarters).
Anyway, so we all hear how the GalFed is a space-US, and I don't mean in Backstage, but generally around EVE with any player who decides to take a small peek at the PF. I blame the fact the writers of CCP in 2003 decided to just copy/paste every exact same detail of the US federal government (three branches of govt, corporate lobbying, PR wars, etc.) and transposed it to EVE. Seriously, reading this (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente_government), there's absolutely no originality to it. There's no looking at how democracy works across hundreds of planets and billions of people. Making these RL comparisons is boring and cheapens everything. Some of us play EVE to immerse ourselves in an original sci-fi universe, not space versions of what we know IRL.
However, where there is vague details, I agree there's plenty of value to be taken by using RL examples, as many have done by looking at Asian cultures with the Caldari (Asian cultures are certainly very collectivist-driven, for example). This is where I think India is a much more accurate comparison to the Gallente Federation in terms of structure and scope.
- Unparalleled linguistic, religious, and ethnic diversity
- Pervasive 'civic nationalist' propaganda (billboards of federal politicians in cities)
- Democratic federation of distinct ethnic/cultural groups
- Massive and highly-penetrating entertainment industry (not necessarily homogenizing, separate industries for separate language groups, eg. Collywood)
- Rich and ancient cultures that go back thousands of years (well, like all EVE cultures)
- Disparate levels of infrastructural development (high-tech Mumbai vs undeveloped tribal villages)
- Plenty of poverty and very large rich/poor divide (better off living in a village with limited electricity than a city slum)
- Penetration of democracy to the lowest level (peasant protests, village celebrations when a state representative comes down)
- Last but not least, all staunchly identifying by one collective identity at the national level
Thing is, not many of us know a lot about India, so this connection is not immediately made. Obviously, I'm not saying Fed = India, but if a RL comparison MUST be made, I believe this is much more accurate. The US has diversity, but nothing to this scale, and it is very explicit in the PF that the Federation is extremely diverse. India has something like 22 recognised indigeneous languages, several major religions, and multiple ethnic groups. There's many allusions in the PF to the disparate infrastructural development in the Fed, too, like distribution of holovision sets (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=post;board=2.0). "100% in major population centers, near 0% in outskirts of Solitude". Obviously, stuff like the more family-driven culture is less applicable.
Anyway, just throwing this out there. This is certainly the approach I have taken in RP recently, especially in the IGS. Alas, it won't stop anyone from making a Space US comparison, though. Just an idea at least.
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Also sounds like Brazil in a lot of ways.
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Oh, I forget about Brazil.
Actually Casi, that might be more accurate. Mixed race Europeans/indigeneous with a wide diversity in appearance, and a Romance-based language...
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/me nods
Gallentean current culture is more akin to modern brazil
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Are you trying to move away from the US comparison for some reason?
The US has a significant and politically powerful immigrant minority (South Americans) like the Federation (Minmatar). It has a multitude of different cultures from across the world and indigenous that both isolate themselves and integrate into the larger "American" culture. It has a history in which the mainstream cultural groups worked to suppress, subsume, and even destroy indigenous cultures.
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It's definitely there regarding foreign policy. American foreign policy is the successor of British Empire foreign policy, spreading democracy/free markets via indirect economic dominance instead of open warfare (eg. British Empire subjects had a large degree of autonomy but were financially dependent on the motherland).
However, foreign policy aside, the diversity within the US would be a poor frame of reference, when countries like India/Brazil are much better analogies. I appreciate the US has diversity, but it barely holds a candle to those countries. If a north Atlantic analogy HAD to be made, the European Union would be more appropiate than the US, as the US is originally a splinter state and not a progressive development of indigenous groups. Certainly, Europe sits between the US and India in terms of diversity.
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Are you trying to move away from the US comparison for some reason?
[...]It has a history in which the mainstream cultural groups worked to suppress, subsume, and even destroy indigenous cultures.
Are we assuming that this is a major thing with the Fed and they actively work to kill off minority cultures? I don't see this in the PF.
@ topic - I'd agree on the india/brazil vibe for the Fed in general more than the US, but ultimately the Fed is so diverse that ANY IRL culture, idea, religion or whatever can be used to inspire you to write about a group/culture/people/religion/whatever inside it's borders. I could even describe a small nation on a planet in the Fed that's basically organized as a mini-version of the state except you replace "Caldari" with whatever you want to call them and it's likely if CCP ever writes a full list of descriptions for what exists on what planet/in what system in all the empires, you will find them in said list.
Anyhow, in short - I agree the india/brazil comparison to some facets of the Gal-Fed is more fitting than the US comparison, even if there are, as mentioned, similarities to both these. However if we are to even go to the RL-comparison part of inspiration-search anything in our world can likely be utilized as a source of inspiration.
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@ topic - I'd agree on the india/brazil vibe for the Fed in general more than the US, but ultimately the Fed is so diverse that ANY IRL culture, idea, religion or whatever can be used to inspire you to write about a group/culture/people/religion/whatever inside it's borders. I could even describe a small nation on a planet in the Fed that's basically organized as a mini-version of the state except you replace "Caldari" with whatever you want to call them and it's likely if CCP ever writes a full list of descriptions for what exists on what planet/in what system in all the empires, you will find them in said list.
Anyhow, in short - I agree the india/brazil comparison to some facets of the Gal-Fed is more fitting than the US comparison, even if there are, as mentioned, similarities to both these. However if we are to even go to the RL-comparison part of inspiration-search anything in our world can likely be utilized as a source of inspiration.
Yes, I think this is it. This is what I enjoy the most, the ability to "sandbox" within the Fed. WRT cultural imperialism, I think the modern Fed realizes that its entertainment industry can do that much better than it as a government entity can. The Fed is a bit more pragmatic to waste its time on "uplifting" cultures when it has many other, much more secretive means of maintaining stability.
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Seriphyn, I do not understand the basis for your views on American diversity.
If you pursue a viewpoint of indigenous group development, I think you will have to drop many of your modern world examples. The India/Brazil of today is not a product of indigenous progressive development, but rather a system brought on by being a colony of an European power (Britain/Portugal).
Are you trying to move away from the US comparison for some reason?
[...]It has a history in which the mainstream cultural groups worked to suppress, subsume, and even destroy indigenous cultures.
Are we assuming that this is a major thing with the Fed and they actively work to kill off minority cultures? I don't see this in the PF.
Cultural Deliverance Society (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cultural_Deliverance_Society)
Jin-Mei (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jin-Mei)
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I personally try to eschew drawing too much equivalence between elements of New Eden and RL or even other media. I mean, like any good analogy, sometimes you can illustrate a particular point, but to claim that the Fed is a US (or India or Brazil) expy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy) goes too far. We can say that certain bits about the Fed remind us of certain things from those cultures, certainly.
I mean, to each their own, as I've realized over the years that Seriphyn in particular finds this approach helpful, but I think it's an approach that, taken to extremes, may obfuscate rather than illuminate.
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Seriphyn, I do not understand the basis for your views on American diversity.
Take a visit/read up on India and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's not a case of perspective, it's just the fact that India is more diverse than the US. For example, each and every US state speak English, with a penetration of 80%, while Texas (at least Austin where I visited) is bilingual with Spanish. In India, meanwhile, you have the state of Punjab, which speaks Punjabi, Orissa which speaks Oriya, Gujarat that speaks Gujarati, Assam that speaks Assamese, and so on and so forth. Only 40% of Indians speak either the main Hindi or another Hindi dialect.
Cultural Deliverance Society (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cultural_Deliverance_Society)
Jin-Mei (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jin-Mei)
Except after hundreds of years with interacting with the Caldari, the "Caldari" still exist. Same with the Jin-Mei. Also, the Cultural Deliverance Society was from Gallente Prime and was founded before the Federation even existed. The cultural colonialism WRT Intaki, Jin-Mei, et al is overstated, simply because these groups still exist with their distinct cultures even after hundreds of years of interference. With minor groups though (the ones we don't hear about in the PF), however...
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Cultural Deliverance Society (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cultural_Deliverance_Society)
Jin-Mei (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jin-Mei)
Except after hundreds of years with interacting with the Caldari, the "Caldari" still exist. Same with the Jin-Mei. Also, the Cultural Deliverance Society was from Gallente Prime and was founded before the Federation even existed. The cultural colonialism WRT Intaki, Jin-Mei, et al is overstated, simply because these groups still exist with their distinct cultures even after hundreds of years of interference. With minor groups though (the ones we don't hear about in the PF), however...
But those two items both point to a history of the Gallente (the majority member in the Federation for most of its history) pursuing cultural assimilation and influence over the other members of the Federation. While the Caldari, Jin-Mei and Intaki have resisted cultural assimilation, other indigenous populations in the Federation may not have been as successful. I think both the CDS and Jin-Mei speak to a history of the Gallente attempting to suppress and subsume other cultures.
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I agree. The "minor" bloodlines (the Gallente couldn't have met just a few if the Amarr met many as well) were likely assimilated or just denied (by force of circumstance) the opportunity to ever 'ascend' to the same notability as the "major" bloodlines. It's as the CDS article you linked, a "soft dominance" policy. I think it is a more subtle manipulation of factors and variables rather than a more direct subjugation. Looking at structural violence with the modern day IMF and other financial institutions is a good example, I think (Pend Insurance and the deal with SCC? CONCORD being Federation proxy?). What this means is that backing the Federation is more defensible as the 'best place evah' because in order to point out its imperialistic flaws, you have to look at covert/subtle factors rather than overt ones (eg. slavery). But most people don't, and despite our capsuleers having a much broader view on world affairs, the Federation arguably has the best PR system in New Eden, hence the flood of immigrants it gets. The Federation goes out of its way to be "awesome", because that's how it conquers; it has to appeal to base human desires to assimilate the largest amount of people as possible. However, this means that the Federal govt (particularly the executive) can act rather insidiously through institutions such as the FIO, because they have a great international image to hide behind.
So yeah, that's quite like the US, but as Casiella might point out, I expounded upon that in a paragraph without bringing the US up at all. Ignoring foreign policy and political behaviour, however, and looking at internal factors, this is where I'd point to Brazil/India. It doesn't have to be all or nothing...a US-style foreign policy, an EU-style government, a Brazilian/Indian-style domestic scope. But I prefer Bloodbird's take actually.
I think the idea is that each constituent culture in the Federation is warped, whether slightly or significantly, to conform to a democratic standard (even the Gallente lost their monarchies). It depends how compatible that culture is with democracy. I think looking at the entire world right now would be a good analogy. Various democracies have their own cultures and languages internally. Whether they are stable because of it, though...and maybe this is where the Federation would work, to ensure that the culture can "fit" with democracy.
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The thing is the Fed can be seen from the lens of practically every current major democracy:
United States: Federal-Republic government, three branch system, government-corporate collusion, dirty power politics, latent expansionism/imperialism and "Manifest Destiny" type thinking, Monroe Doctrine type thinking regarding what it considers its "Sphere of Influence" particularly regarding Placid, Syndicate and Solitude and hell, even the Republic.
India/Brazil: Extreme economic disparities between rich and poor, labour exploitation, periphery populations in Placid or Solitude don't have the same opportunities as "Core" worlds in Sinq, Essence and Verge Vendor.
EU: Structural arrangements of the Fed probably favour giving constituent systems/planets in handling their own political affairs with the Federal Senate acting like Brussels managing things like overall spending, currency, finances and regulation, open border policies lead to instability when you have people migrating from "poorer" Fed worlds to "richer" Fed worlds, friction between Villore and other member systems over fiscal and budget policy etc.
Russia: Authoritarianism and corruption of privileged elites managing affairs in their own interests, potential instances of electoral fraud/unfair elections, appeals to strength and unity, discrimination and outright violence against ethnic minorities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Federation is a big freaking place and it really is a place that it can be whatever you and your characters want the Federation to be. That can be infuriating both for those who want to RP in it and those who want to detract against it because it's a place that can only be defined moment-to-moment and that it's full of internal and external dichotomies and contradictions because what it may be at any given point in its past and its future will differ greatly because it's always changing and in motion.
All that matters is individual perspectives on the Fed, and whatever they may be they are all legitimate really because that reflects the fact everyone has their own views on what the Fed actually is and how it operates. Does it get boring when everyone seems to copypasta Noam Chomsky and apply it to the United States of the Gallente Federation? Sure, and in many respects those aspects stick because there are strong parallels, but the Federation is a space-nation of the future and how its power structures and society function differ greatly from anything we have in the real world.
On the tangent about Gallentean Imperialism, sure it's there, but the way some people phrase it makes it sound like Gallenteans retire to secret volcano lairs as they plan to take over the world, which is less likely of a case as the expression of certain maxims and values expressed primarily through the media and the societal conformity pressures that it engenders.
As for the CDS, I think that had much more to do with the nature of the Gallente-Caldari first contact and a sense of superiority over Caldari culture and the inherent righteousness of the, "Gallente Way", since the Gallente were able to reach a higher technological standard and achieve spaceflight etc., before the Caldari were able to. Although, I'd say such, "Gallentean Arrogance" still expresses itself in the modern Federation to varying degrees though.
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The thing is the Fed can be seen from the lens of practically every current major democracy:
United States: Federal-Republic government, three branch system, government-corporate collusion, dirty power politics, latent expansionism/imperialism and "Manifest Destiny" type thinking, Monroe Doctrine type thinking regarding what it considers its "Sphere of Influence" particularly regarding Placid, Syndicate and Solitude and hell, even the Republic.
India/Brazil: Extreme economic disparities between rich and poor, labour exploitation, periphery populations in Placid or Solitude don't have the same opportunities as "Core" worlds in Sinq, Essence and Verge Vendor.
EU: Structural arrangements of the Fed probably favour giving constituent systems/planets in handling their own political affairs with the Federal Senate acting like Brussels managing things like overall spending, currency, finances and regulation, open border policies lead to instability when you have people migrating from "poorer" Fed worlds to "richer" Fed worlds, friction between Villore and other member systems over fiscal and budget policy etc.
Russia: Authoritarianism and corruption of privileged elites managing affairs in their own interests, potential instances of electoral fraud/unfair elections, appeals to strength and unity, discrimination and outright violence against ethnic minorities.
Nice, I like these.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Federation is a big freaking place and it really is a place that it can be whatever you and your characters want the Federation to be. That can be infuriating both for those who want to RP in it and those who want to detract against it because it's a place that can only be defined moment-to-moment and that it's full of internal and external dichotomies and contradictions because what it may be at any given point in its past and its future will differ greatly because it's always changing and in motion.
Right, I do believe this has come up in RP multiple times...the Federation's economic system is keeping one planet in a perpetual state of poverty; at the same time, another planet boasts the best living conditions in the cluster, and has a great social safety network even for immigrants. Because everything is so fragmented, what applies in A might not apply in B, if that's what you're trying to say.
On the tangent about Gallentean Imperialism, sure it's there, but the way some people phrase it makes it sound like Gallenteans retire to secret volcano lairs as they plan to take over the world, which is less likely of a case as the expression of certain maxims and values expressed primarily through the media and the societal conformity pressures that it engenders.
Yeah, I agree with this too. The general people aren't imperialistic and conquering just for the sake of it. Even despite the OOC metaknowledge of what the elites "are really up to", an individual might have some genuinely sincere reasons for believing in the current course-of-action. 99% of the Fed are just ordinary people.
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99% of the Fed are just ordinary people.
Occupy Luminaire!
...wait, somebody already tried that.
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Right, I do believe this has come up in RP multiple times...the Federation's economic system is keeping one planet in a perpetual state of poverty; at the same time, another planet boasts the best living conditions in the cluster, and has a great social safety network even for immigrants.
I think the Federation's economy is definitely two-speed in regards to the fact that the "core" worlds (What I see as mostly the high-security regions of Essence, Sinq Laison and Verge Vendors) are more established as they were colonized early in the expansion drive of the Gallente (And Caldari) from Luminaire. They're home to high-tech industries and high-wage professions that favour the employment of an educated middle-class in the Federation as well as the majority of private sector investments. Disparity arises when less established colonies in the periphery regions like Placid and Solitude cannot compete in the domestic Federal market due to lack of infrastructure, investments and all their talented and educated workers moving to the "Core" where all the potential jobs are. Homeworld systems like Intaki or Mannar are probably the exception due to their historical and cultural significance and the fact they get money pumped into them through other means - NGO's, Philanthropy or investments just because it's the home planet.
But yes, I think every system and planet is different in the Fed but we as players can't see that because we are unable to pull up the records on them.
Yeah, I agree with this too. The general people aren't imperialistic and conquering just for the sake of it. Even despite the OOC metaknowledge of what the elites "are really up to", an individual might have some genuinely sincere reasons for believing in the current course-of-action. 99% of the Fed are just ordinary people.
Pretty much. I never really got the apples-and-oranges kind of logic behind associating Federal Imperialism with the Amarrian brand (Aside perhaps from scoring free propaganda points or what have you). Federal Imperialism is the Imperialism of Capitalism and the requirement of forever expanding in order find and create new markets and resources whilst shutting out potential competitors. Cultural assimilation is a by-product of that process and not the actual goal of how the Federation functions as a capitalist and corporate society [Edit: At the top levels, anyway], in my opinion.
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Solitude actually has a disproportionately large influence in the Federation, if you read the region description. I picture it as a strategically-located frontier region under heavy development, not as a backwater region in decline. A region full of aggressive hardliners, patriots and opportunists out to plant the flag, build the nation and make fortunes of their own.
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Texas?
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Texas?
Much of the old American frontier would serve as a decent analogy, yes. Although possibly with less indigenous inhabitants and/or rival claimants to worry about.
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Texas?
Much of the old American frontier would serve as a decent analogy, yes. Although possibly with less indigenous inhabitants and/or rival claimants to worry about.
I have a similar view on Solitude, though I think it experiences some cultural tension from being sandwiched between Syndicate, the Imperial backwater (also otherwise known as "once upon a time, the systems now known as Solitude may have been a haven for Ni-Kunni border runners and their like") and the Kingdom. It may also be a key point of entry into the Federation for migrants from those areas, so the local culture may be more a mix of Gallente/Intaki/Imperial races than Gallente/Matari/Intaki/Jin-Mei.
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(also otherwise known as "once upon a time, the systems now known as Solitude may have been a haven for Ni-Kunni border runners and their like")
My Ni-Kunni border runner thinks that very idea is as preposterous as anything he's ever heard.
>_>
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I have a similar view on Solitude, though I think it experiences some cultural tension from being sandwiched between Syndicate, the Imperial backwater (also otherwise known as "once upon a time, the systems now known as Solitude may have been a haven for Ni-Kunni border runners and their like") and the Kingdom. It may also be a key point of entry into the Federation for migrants from those areas, so the local culture may be more a mix of Gallente/Intaki/Imperial races than Gallente/Matari/Intaki/Jin-Mei.
I agree.
On that same note, I quite liked Andreus' take on the ethnic make-up of the various regions of the Federation: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=131157&p=1
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Solitude always seemed like a great place to setup a development company ;)
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Solitude also has a very disproportionate amount of Fed Navy, FIO, Fed Customs, and Military-Industrial corps like Roden and Duvolle in the region but there isn't any Fed Admin there which is quite interesting.
I've always had this feeling that Solitude as a region is being used by the Fed as a Military staging area and industrial zone that is strategically situated far away from any potential fighting with the State. It's also a great place to get away from all the damn liberals in the core of the Fed.
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Well, that does sound like most of the western US until you get to the coast.
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Well, that does sound like most of the western US until you get to the coast.
The west coast of the US has a ton of military & military-industrial complex along it. Just also has a lot of other people as well.
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I was thinking about the fact that a lot of governmental administration is there, too, though not nearly like the capital region.
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As I'm still getting used to the PF, I have to ask; how adaptable has the Federation been? Instead of imposing RL analogies on fiction, the other way around the fiction reminds me of a liberal nation very willing to change with the times. Also who is perceived to be more hedonistic, Gallente or Amarr?
As a side note on the language discussion earlier did you know India is ranked 2nd in order of total English speakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population)?
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Also who is perceived to be more hedonistic, Gallente or Amarr?
Stereotypes pin this one firmly on the Gallente.
However, given the commonly-accepted (afaik) view that there's more to the average Amarrian than is visible in public... well, what happens behind closed doors stays behind closed doors for a reason. ;)
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Funny, I had always viewed the minmatar republic as more like India/Brazil. The Gallente Federation, despite being very large and ethnically diverse, does seem to have a pretty strong cultural homogenization aspect. The united states seems like a closer analogy for the Federation, with the more well off parts of the federation resembling western european nations, with poorer areas resembling detriot, cleveland, or the Pine Ridge Reservation.