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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Creedance Talor on 03 Aug 2011, 04:37

Title: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Creedance Talor on 03 Aug 2011, 04:37
I have asked myself this multiple times so far how the achurans fit into the state. The lore is non exsistant , there was the written snippet about how achuran act but how come they became part of the state, but can remain so introvert concerning their society and culture.

I personally thing the Caldari came across the Achuran during their secret colonisation of The current Caldari Regions and that the Achurans helped them establish themselves a bit easier with a local supplier. Since Sasio is in the middle of The Forge.

Achurans being so orderly could have been a factor that they do fit into the militaristic nature of the Caldari but beyond that they do not seem as open concerning the everybody for the Corporation.

Any other toughts of how the Achuran came to be part of the state?
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Horatius Caul on 03 Aug 2011, 05:09
I would think it's more about them having a dislike towards the Federation in common.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Raze Valadeus on 03 Aug 2011, 07:15
The Archura are highly intelligent as a race and tend to be scientists and engineers (from what I've read). Their extreme focus and dedication to the tasks before them, as well as their cunning resourcefulness and understanding of business and science makes them fit right in with the principles and society of the State.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Seriphyn on 03 Aug 2011, 07:23
I do think it is somewhat of a bizarre fit. Here is the Apocrypha showinfo description for Achurans...

Quote
Achura has been part of the Caldari State for three centuries, and yet their culture has always remained something of a mystery. Originally from the Saisio System, they are reclusive and introverted, and show little interest in the ephemeral phenomena of the material world. Intensely spiritual, Achur pilots have only recently taken to the stars, driven in large part by a desire to unlock the secrets of the universe.

Pre-Apocrypha showinfo description...

Quote
Achura has been part of the Caldari State for three centuries, joining and leaving the Federation at the same time as the State. Yet the Achur have always remained a mystery to others. Hailing from the inhospitable Saisio system in The Forge, the Achur are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be while still participating in galactic affairs. Intensely spiritual, the average Achur has little interest in the material world's transitory doodads. Achur pilots have been few and far between in the past, but the recent sacrilege of their home world prompted them to take to the skies in greater numbers.

Highlighted two important elements that were removed and/or retconned (CCP's Caldari babies capable of such an evil act as sacrilege of a homeworld? Never!).

But yes, to me, it makes little sense. The Caldari are militaristic, ruthless and hypercapitalistic. Do your job, or fall into nothingness. How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them? The Achur have more in common with the Intaki than the Caldari. To me, it was a horrible Asian cop-out by CCP, and I think they may have regretted the implementation of the Achura. The only time they have ever been mentioned in a chronicle is Chasing Shadows (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=06-04-10), and never in a single news item. The fact they've never released a single piece of info on them that details this connection makes me think CCP is going "Er, Achura? Oh yeah...them"

As for being cunningly resourceful, having an understanding of business/science/engineering, they could easily fit in with the Federation, too. The key difference is the hypermilitaristic nature of the Caldari State, something that the Achur have absolutely no shared values with.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: orange on 03 Aug 2011, 07:38
Any other toughts of how the Achuran came to be part of the state?
Proto-SuVee settled in their system prior to the existence of the Federation?

The pre-State Achura may have been content to watch the blinking of the stars in Saisio and was not greatly involved in the Gallente-Caldari War.  At the peace treaty, the system was designated a State system because 1) SuVee had made their HQ there and 2) it was surrounded by other Caldari systems.  The Achura may not have even been present or cared and were content to continue their existence on their one world.

Then something happened, some sacrilege occurred. We do not know what or who did it.  Maybe it was SuVee that finally decided to setup shop on the "virgin" world.  Maybe Guristas/Jove/Competitor/etc made an attack on a holy site and took something of great value to the Achurans.  In any case the Achurans decided that in order to prevent future sacrileges, protect their home, or get back what was taken they must take to the skies.

I think the above is as reasonable as any explanation and may explain why CCP removed the content Seriphyn highlighted - it does not matter to the average player.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 08:56

Highlighted two important elements that were removed and/or retconned (CCP's Caldari babies capable of such an evil act as sacrilege of a homeworld? Never!).

I admit that my recollection of those events are hazy, but I seem to recall that it was the blood raiders or somebody who committed the sacrilege.   
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Vieve on 03 Aug 2011, 09:04
But yes, to me, it makes little sense. The Caldari are militaristic, ruthless and hypercapitalistic. Do your job, or fall into nothingness. How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them?

Seri, please making me bite my tongue in RL.   Wikipedia.  Entry for bushido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido).  Please read it.*

Look at the progression of how the Japanese interpreted bushido throughout their history. Imagine how the folks tasked with including more Asians in this game in a hurry might have tweaked and respun it for the far future survivors of a Civilization Reboot grade disaster.  Why in the heck are there so many Monks on Saisio anyway?  Could the Amarr possibly be not alone in being the descendants of the folks involved in a religious movement?  Were the proto-Achurans the religious enemies of the proto-Amarr?   Is this written down somewhere in Blood Raider history?

* This is not an invitation to argue with me about how the definition in Wikipedia is all wrong.   I didn't write the thing, and while I enjoy sushi and took enough Japanese in college to be able to find a bathroom in Narita, I don't have a degree in Asian Studies or an anime obsession. :P
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Seriphyn on 03 Aug 2011, 09:12
I admit that my recollection of those events are hazy, but I seem to recall that it was the blood raiders or somebody who committed the sacrilege.

Oh, now that's interesting if true...something to do with that "Rod of Creator" thing? There's some mission about some Achuran protests that the State want to deal with that I was doing on Kiam, I think I'll dig it up Soon™.

Also, I'm not sure why CCP didn't make Fuukiuye or Oryioni bloodlines the third bloodline for the Caldari, really. To me, the Caldari are intense patriots focused around their own culture and nation, ie. a lot of nationalism around Caldari Prime. How do the Achurans feel about being apart of the State that celebrated the return of the homeworld, a homeworld that is not theirs or has anything to do with them? That's what makes me go "eh" about the Achurans, as they appear like "hanger-ons".

Does anyone know any RL analogies that could be used? Of a monocultural/monoethnic society (like Japan) that has a very small minority of a very different culture (mileage may vary on that culture bit). Perhaps the US and Native Americans is an example of a comparison?

And yes, perhaps the Achurans fill in with traditional Caldari practices of ancestor worship and practices, as opposed to the modern hypercapitalistic militarism.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Kohiko Sun on 03 Aug 2011, 09:13
Then something happened, some sacrilege occurred. We do not know what or who did it.  Maybe it was SuVee that finally decided to setup shop on the "virgin" world.  Maybe Guristas/Jove/Competitor/etc made an attack on a holy site and took something of great value to the Achurans.  In any case the Achurans decided that in order to prevent future sacrileges, protect their home, or get back what was taken they must take to the skies.
Unless it has been retconned, the Rod of the Creator was stolen from Achura, which is why the (NPC) Celestial Imperative was created by the temples and Achur officers from the Caldari Navy: to find it themselves.

Quote from: Seri
The Caldari are militaristic, ruthless and hypercapitalistic. Do your job, or fall into nothingness. How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them?
Intensely spiritual does not necessarily mean nice or pacifistic (hello, Amarr). The Ceremonial Brush (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ceremonial_Brush) is a disturbing example.

The White Songs (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Achuran_White_Song_Birds) were originally important to Achur because they were a symbol of the Imperial line of the Achuran Empire that, I think, evolved into a symbol of all of Achura after the Empire ended - they're still held in deep reverence. That makes me think the Achur seemed to have a similar planetary empire to the ethnic Caldari's Raata on Caldari Prime.

When they met, there's a very good chance both sides saw a bit of themselves in each other and decided to work together instead of the typical violence that happens when anything called an empire meets another group. (Of course, the Raata was over and done by then, and I don't know if the Achuran Empire ended before or after meeting the Caldari.) Or, the Stargazers (Hi!) could have simply agreed that their future lied with these people from the stars. And, the Caldari by that time had experience with peaceful first contacts with other worlds as a partner with the Gallente in the Federation's explorations.

When the Caldari fled to create the modern State, the Achur - who were already conveniently living in The Forge - probably had little trouble deciding to help/join their 'proper' cousins that they met first instead staying with the wildly chaotic Federation that they'd had less contact with. (That also depends on if the Achur actually did join the Federation or not.  :psyccp: )


***********
My question has always been a whining, "Why SuVee?" Have they been bedazzled with shiny doodads enough to happily let themselves, as a whole, be used as a marketing tool?
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Kohiko Sun on 03 Aug 2011, 09:19
Does anyone know any RL analogies that could be used? Of a monocultural/monoethnic society (like Japan) that has a very small minority of a very different culture (mileage may vary on that culture bit). Perhaps the US and Native Americans is an example of a comparison?
You could still use Japan. It's not quite as 'mono' as many believe with Ainu, Okinawans, and Koreans, even during the famous centuries of isolationism.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 09:30
How on earth does an intensely spiritual lot fit in with them? The Achur have more in common with the Intaki than the Caldari.



You seem to be forgetting about the Cold Wind, Wind-from-the-West, Starsmith, and Maker deities.  I can't find any references to the Maker atm, and they may have all been retconned out but they were there and are not the same as the "Tea Maker,"  position that also has religious significance to the Caldari.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-04-06

Quote
Several Caldari mystics have claimed that Tenal is the place that one should travel to in order to come face to face with the Starsmith, although whether this is in reference to the view into space from its outermost systems or the likely outcome of trying to negotiate the dangers of the route has never been made clear


Smith's make steel, and apparently this one makes the stars.  Take a look at most of the Caldari logos,the tend to include steel, stars or steel stars.  A few examples:

(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/f/fc/Caldari_Navy.jpg) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/b/b0/Home_Guard.jpg) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/0/09/Corporate_Police_Force.jpg) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/7/7a/State_Protectorate.jpg) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/7/73/Spacelane_Patrol.jpg)

BTW, the Intaki also get along smashingly with the Caldari.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 09:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

Quote
Animism encompasses the beliefs that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) worlds, and souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in all other animals, plants, rocks, natural phenomena such as thunder, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment

I.E the wind.

Quote
Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology. Animism is particularly widely found in the religions of indigenous peoples,[5] perhaps most interestingly in Shinto and Sererism, and some forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, Pantheism, Christianity and Neopaganism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

Quote
Shinto or Shintoism is the indigenous spirituality of Japan and the Japanese people. It is a set of practices, to be carried out diligently, to establish a connection between present day Japan and its ancient past.  Kami are defined in English as "spirits", "essences" or "deities", that are associated with many understood formats; in some cases being human-like, in others being animistic, and others being associated with more abstract "natural" forces in the world (mountains, rivers, lightning, wind, waves, trees, rocks).  The vast majority of Japanese people who take part in Shinto rituals also practice Buddhist ancestor worship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengu

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Tengu are a class of supernatural creatures found in Japanese folklore, art, theater, and literature. They are one of the best known yōkai (monster-spirits) and are sometimes worshipped as Shinto kami (revered spirits or gods).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune

Quote
Kitsune is the Japanese word for fox. Foxes are a common subject of Japanese folklore; in English, kitsune refers to them in this context. Stories depict them as intelligent beings and as possessing magical abilities that increase with their age and wisdom. Foremost among these is the ability to assume human form. While some folktales speak of kitsune employing this ability to trick others—as foxes in folklore often do—other stories portray them as faithful guardians, friends, lovers, and wives.

Even before the introduction of the Cold Wind chronicle, the Tengu or the Kitsune it was often suggested by this community that the Caldari practiced some form of Animism based on their ship names which are almost all named for animals.




Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 10:28
The fact that the Federation was violently suppressing the Jen-Mei succession movement, arresting and exiling the Intaki heads of state and military for attempting to succeed and bombing Caldari Prime during that time frame...probably gave the Achurians the opinion that the Gallenteans just might be the cluster's most dangerous imperialistic conquerors. 

The strong sense of racial supremacy (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=651&tid=4) in the ethnic Gallentean working class was likely even more pronounced in that era and would have a role in their choice I think.   Their options were to be conquered by the Gallenteans or
side with the Caldari who would pretty much leave them alone.

My question has always been a whining, "Why SuVee?" Have they been bedazzled with shiny doodads enough to happily let themselves, as a whole, be used as a marketing tool?

Why assume that SuVee, which has an oldly different take on corporate ethics than the rest of the state, would have had more of an affect on the Achurians than the other way around?    It's likely that Saiso is one of the largest planet bound populations within the State and the Achurians are known to be driven and intelligent.   Why wouldn't they hold most of the executive positions with the megacorp who's HQ is in their home system?
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Seriphyn on 03 Aug 2011, 10:50
The fact that the Federation was violently suppressing the Jen-Mei succession movement

Actually, this was all my own fiction-writing, and has no mention in PF ever. Even then, it was mostly peacekeeping and no violent suppression. Hehe...

Quote
arresting and exiling the Intaki heads of state and military for attempting to succeed and bombing Caldari Prime during that time frame

Yes, all five thousand of them, out of many billions.

Quote
The strong sense of racial supremacy in the ethnic Gallentean working class was likely even more pronounced in that era and would have a role in their choice I think.   Their options were to be conquered by the Gallenteans or side with the Caldari who would pretty much leave them alone.

Yes, there is an idea that there is a distinction to be made between the "Old" and "New" Federation, the latter of which is more about political correctness than indulgent imperialism. Given that the Achur were close to/within the Caldari secret colonies, it would have been far easier for the Achur to break off than the Intaki and Mannar, who were located within Federation holdings. I would not be surprised if this was the case.

However, in the modern Federation, a portion of this "ethnic Gallente" are now (allegedly) descended from immigrants. The dichotomy of "us and them" seems to have broken down over time, and now it is the case of "the Federation and its subjects" as opposed to "the Gallente and its subjects". The last President was Intaki, after all, and given an extremely large Intaki influence on the bureaucracy and diplomacy, it now appears that the Federation is the sum of its parts, a large non-ethnic mass that absorbs smaller entities. It would be ironic that any permutation against the Intaki subculture has been the responsibility of other Intaki, and also insidious in this regard, given the Federation has this ability to assimilate. But yeah, it very much appears the Federation has evolved from merely being an arm of the Luminaire Gallenteans.

Also, very very nice stuff regarding the star and steel motifs amongst the Caldari.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Kohiko Sun on 03 Aug 2011, 11:00
I could see the Starsmith as possibly a bit of cross-pollination of the Achur into the wider Caldari pantheon. They seem to have the more celestial view of things - Stargazers, Inventors 'plucking ideas from the universe', the Celestial Imperative, and such.


Another thing I've been curious about was hak'len, and if Achur can survive it. "Caldari" can drink it; Achur are technically still referred to as "Caldari", even though they're not from Caldari Prime. I've always played like Ko could (at the very least, handwaving that Achur may have developed an immunity over the centuries), but I've always been worried about urdoinitrong.

Why assume that SuVee, which has an oldly different take on corporate ethics than the rest of the state, would have had more of an affect on the Achurians than the other way around?
Oh, no. I'm sure both have colored each other; after all, Achur are all throughout SuVee and its subsidiaries. And, it's quite sly. (I'll avoid comparing it to something like Korean Airlines using the stereotype of the smiling, submissive Asian woman pampering businessmen as the center of its marketing campaign IRL, which makes me rant.) But, it seems so at odds with the disinterest in 'transitory doodads' - mostly when thinking of something like Expert Distribution being the State's Wal-Mart or Tesco.

Of course, the part that makes it sly is that their disinterest doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't take advantage of everyone else's interest while presenting a happy and totally nonthreatening face.

I'd have preferred to see them more closely tied to Ishukone's scientific side, but that's admittedly just me fangirling over my two favorite bits of the State.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 11:08
Yes, all five thousand of them, out of many billions.

I don't think the Intaki population was so large as to require billions of heads of State or high ranking military officers.

Actually, this was all my own fiction-writing, and has no mention in PF ever.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-06-09
Quote
"Look, you guys had your chance and blew it," the teacher said to him. "You may think the Caldari should go the same way and simply surrender to the unstoppable might of the Gallente Federation."

It was a vicious insult to Sheeran's ancestry [Jen-Mei], and he made to defend it, but Cromwell silenced him by saying, "Stop nattering about the ones who dared fight back."
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Seriphyn on 03 Aug 2011, 11:27
I wasn't referring to heads of state or military officers, but those exiled. Out of the greater Intaki population, those exiled was minute.

Also, I think Cromwell is simply being tactlessly sarcastic, figure-of-speech. It's very British to do that, and in fact, the character of Cromwell is very British in his mannerisms and whatnot, something I found endearing about the chronicle. The line is "voluntarily joined", and there is little to suggest any violent conquest. It's one extremely opinionated character versus the history.

It's not the big, bad Federation anymore, after all. Just in secret.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 11:28
Hak'len is technically fan-fic so I don't think there is anyway to do it wrong.   

I will say that Herko was fascinated by the tera forming of Caldari Prime and I suspect that his reasoning for the Civire and Deties being able to eat from the Kresh plant had to do with genetic modification of the colonist so they could survive on Caldari prime.   Moreover, the Civire and Deties only consume these things during ceremonies and customs that the average Achurians likely don't share. 

 Still it's reasonable to assume that somebody markets a pill, patch or injection that would neutralize whatever poison the Civire and Deteis naturally neutralize.     For example, if a Achurian married a Civire he or she might want to share in their spouse's religious traditions and I'm sure some corp would want to make money from that.

Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 11:42
I wasn't referring to heads of state or military officers, but those exiled. Out of the greater Intaki population, those exiled was minute.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug01-01

Quote
The social uproar following the Caldari departure from the Federation touched the Intakis deeply and many of them sympathized and even supported the Caldari - the yoke of the cumbersome Federation bureaucracy lay as heavily on the Intakis as the Caldari. Understandably the Gallenteans were forced to deal harshly with these elements to prevent a complete fragmentation of the young Federation.

Apart from a few minor uprisings the Federation quickly subdued the Intakis. Those deemed the biggest threat to the stability of the regime were arrested and exiled.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=oct01-01

Quote
When the Caldari broke from the Gallente Federation many Intakis that sympathized with their cause were exiled from the Federation. The most militant of those went over to the Caldari and asked to join them in their fight against the Federation. These were all experienced military personnel and thus very valuable in the early stages of the war when veterans were few and far between.

There was an actual threat of the Intaki leaving the Federation, the leaders of the movement were arrested and exiled and many of them wear in the military prior to their arrest and  had extensive combat experience.   Junior officers are not a threat - these were Admirals and Generals.  I think it is reasonable to assume that the civilian section of the exiles are equally as important such as members of the Intaki Assembly, captians of industry and perhaps the odd Idama or two.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Seriphyn on 03 Aug 2011, 12:11
Yep, under the Ultra-Nationalist government, which has long been buried under history. Now, the Federation is more centrist/moderate. Funnily enough, the same way the Amarr learnt restraint with the Jove and Minmatar Rebellion, the Federation learnt it with the Caldari secession.

You're forgetting that "Gallente society is in a constant state of flux, vigorous, vibrant and progressive". The early Federation was dominated by the Gallente, and during the first war, the Intaki and Mannar were still weak. The Mannar and Intaki eventually flexed "their political and economic muscles" to become full members of the Federation.

What I mean to say is, is that the Federation of two-hundred years ago is not the same as it is now, the same way the modern United States is not the same United States when it was first formed.

This is an important point to remember, IMO. The Federation no longer oppresses its subjects, because these former objects of suppression are now major components of said Federation. There is a distinction of course with the Intaki solar system itself, but ethnic Intakis are going to all over the Federation, varying from traditional to Gallenteanized.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Hamish Grayson on 03 Aug 2011, 12:26
That has nothing to do with how the Achurians viewed the Federation a hundred years ago.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Alain Colcer on 03 Aug 2011, 12:39
The fact that the Federation was violently suppressing the Jen-Mei succession movement, arresting and exiling the Intaki heads of state and military for attempting to succeed and bombing Caldari Prime during that time frame...probably gave the Achurians the opinion that the Gallenteans just might be the cluster's most dangerous imperialistic conquerors.

Agreed, at that time, a rather extremist goverment was in power. So its entirely plausible Achuran society choose to side with those who where their neighbors at the time and were being "forced" to submit.

Their actual choice to go out into space and become an active part of the state is beyond me however.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Kohiko Sun on 03 Aug 2011, 13:05
Why sit on a rock and wait for the stars and universe to tell you their secrets when you can go to them and ask?


Edit to add a bit more: All of the megas seem to like hiring Achur spiritual advisors and teachers to give seminars or teach formal classes to help employees be less stressed and more productive. I remember a news blurb about it, but I'm not good at finding those. How sneaky is that to use a fad among management as a way to spread Achur and their Way off Achura?
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Seriphyn on 03 Aug 2011, 13:09
That has nothing to do with how the Achurians viewed the Federation a hundred years ago.

Well, hold on dude, you were making points about the topic of the big bad Federation in general, as opposed to this specific subject, so you have to expect counterpoints.

All of that said, though, the extreme right-wing government that controlled the Federation at the time would be more than enough reason for the Achur to secede as well, and given that they were surrounded by the Caldari, it would be easier to fall under their aegis when war broke out.

From this, the Achur remaining with the State is just a result of this legacy. Still think CCP should have chosen the other two mentioned ethnicities from Caldari Prime, instead of randomly creating the Achur but  :psyccp:
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Casiella on 03 Aug 2011, 13:17
So help me understand. Is this about possible inconsistencies in the background of a third bloodline CCP created for business reasons, or is this about defending one's viewpoint on a separate, personally-preferred faction?

Because I think the first discussion sounds valuable and interesting, but the second should stay in the many, many threads the OP has already created on that topic.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Z.Sinraali on 03 Aug 2011, 14:08
I'm with Casi. Go fight the Fed-State PR battle elsewhere.

That said, there seem to be two separate issues here. One is the historical happenstance surrounding the Achuran presence in the State, the other the thematic continuity or lack thereof between the Achura and the rest of the Caldari peoples.

On the first point, I'm leaning for the fact that it really was just random chance that Caldari explorers stumbled across them, and then the issues within the Federation at the time that led them to take off with their buddies.

As for why they're buddies at all, well, I'm thinking the fact that both peoples have an isolationist or at least privacy-preferring streak would lead them to get along fairly well.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 03 Aug 2011, 14:27
On a related note, is there any documentation of the sacrilege-of-the-homeworld/theft-of-the-rod incident that led up to the formation of the NPC Celestial Imperative? I remember an offhand reference to pirates being responsible as well, though not who or how.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Kohiko Sun on 03 Aug 2011, 14:29
It's a mission arc you can do with the graduation certificates.  The wiki page for Achura (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Achura#The_Celestial_Imperative) mentions it at the bottom a little bit.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Kaleigh Doyle on 03 Aug 2011, 14:52
Great retirement benefits
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Cmdr Baxter on 03 Aug 2011, 18:59
To answer the OP's post …

PF on the subject of the Caldari and Achurans states that SuVee settled on Saisio shortly after the evacuation of Caldari Prime [1] (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sukuuvestaa_Corporation_%28NPC_corporation%29). The Achura/SuVee relationship has thus existed for a little short of two centuries, but in all likelihood it may have existed well before that. Additionally, the EVElopedia entry for the Achura says they've been a member of the Caldari State for another century before that [2] (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Achura).

That's a lot of time to build good relations on all sides, and I think that shows in what we see of their present-day relationship. SuVee traded higher-ranking corporate positions (not to mention adopting some elements of Achuran culture), in exchange for the right to call Saisio their HQ. They brought with them their economic influence and quite probably a lot of employment opportunities in their subsidiary corporations. Remember that the megacorps provide for their own workers (although whether it's truly beneficial in the end is up for debate along the typical Caldari v. Gallente lines).

In exchange the Achurans brought their scientific tendencies to the table. They may have also been willing to allow SuVee to settle (and remain over the years) because of one other thing: the megacorporations have this tendency to dig in and ruthlessly defend their interests. The Ingalles Incident was an excellent example of this [3] (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Masks_of_Authority_%28Chronicle%29). Each megacorp operates its own little fiefdom and doesn’t allow people to "rock the boat" within that. By remaining a part of the Caldari State, and allowing SuVee to retain Saisio as their headquarters, the Achurans (described as an introverted and reclusive society) are reasonably protected against the rest of the galaxy by SuVee.

You wouldn't find that sort of shield within the Gallente Federation.

The other thing I see as influencing the relationship is what they see "across the border" in the Federation. Under most circumstances the Gallente are normally middle-of-the-road centrists, but PF shows that they have a nasty habit of extreme political swings in times of crisis. The rise of the ultra-nationalist government in the early days of the Caldari War of Secession was one example [4] (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente-Caldari_War:_The_Breakout_%28Chronicle%29). More recently, I think we saw the rise of another ultra-nationalist government during the Foiritan administration and likely continuing into the current administration.

Ultra-nationalist governments do have a tendency to rock the boat in ways that disturb civil society, especially under times of extreme crisis. Sometimes a government like this, in my opinion, is good but sometimes it's not-so-good. A good example might be (in some people's interpretation, myself included) the present-day Russian Federation. A decade of economic/military/political decline hit the country hard, and it especially hit the average man on the street badly. By the time that Vladimir Putin came along Russia was having a serious identity crisis. But the fact that he greatly overhauled the country (and is continuing to do so, albeit behind the scenes) means that the people will likely continue to remain permissive of the ultra-nationalist government that's leading them.

A "bad" example of an ultra-nationalist government, in my opinion, is what we see playing out in PF for the Gallente Federation. That being said, I understand the reasons why the government came to be. The Gallente in the course of a year first were mauled by the Caldari. Next they were invaded by Uriam Kador's fleet, and then came Sansha's Nation. Their enemies are, literally, all around them to the point where civil society is probably perceived as being under threat. In response the political sphere within the Federation did a hard-right turn, which culminated in the formation of the Black Eagles [5] (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles). Remember that this is coming from a society which has in the past enjoyed an unparalleled and vibrant democracy. The Federation has never had the same sort of "citizen-warrior" mindset that the Caldari have, hence another reason why the people are probably looking for the sort of strong leadership that a temporary ultra-nationalist government might provide.

Of course, if PF is any judge to go off of, the ultra-nationalist government will probably go away once these crisis have passed. Only to return the next time there's a series of crisis.

So, bottom line, I think the Achurans probably stayed with the Caldari State because of (1) the fact that siding with a megacorporation would protect and insulate their introverted society against the greater galaxy, (2) the economic benefits of having a megacorp using their world as its headquarters, and (3) the political volatility of the Gallente Federation.
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Lydia Tishal on 03 Aug 2011, 22:52
I vaguely remember something from the Caldari graduation arc about the Achur being angry with the Federation Navy for not doing enough to either prevent the Rod of the Creator incident or investigate it after the fact. Is it possible that the mission text (referenced in the wiki linked above) originally referenced the Federation Navy instead of the Caldari Navy? It wouldn't surprise me if that had been changed at some point.

Or I could just be remembering wrong.

In any case, to me the inclusion of Achura in the State has always seemed like a simple mix of location and mentality. A reclusive, spiritually minded people may simply have decided that the Federation's rowdy, participatory government was too much of a distraction. The State government seems like it will work and it's conveniently located, so why not?
Title: Re: Why are Achuran part of the state?
Post by: Gottii on 03 Aug 2011, 23:19
Im not sure I see the controversy. 

Take one description of the Achuran male:

"The Achur male is reserved in deeds and manner and is a master of disguising his own thoughts and emotions. Never rash or impulsive, he likes to meditate on every decision of importance. Compassion is not alien to him, but his tendency to look at the bigger picture makes it easier for him to sacrifice short-term gains for long-term benefits."

This guy would do quite well in a corporate, conformist, collectivist environment that emphasized a sort of ruthless pragmatism, stoicism, cultural purity and competition. 

Just because they're spiritual doesn't mean their automatically benign, simple or harmless.