Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 20 May 2011, 03:15
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I learnt that the UK has a much higher instance of mixed race marriages and children than in the US. At any rate, here I figured to offer my ideas on how each of the four cultures regard mixed race relationships or "miscegenation".
Gallente
Gallente Prime was likely globalized via peaceful means during their information age, and it is likely that all ethnic Gallenteans originating from Luminaire are all mixed race themselves, through the creation of a "world culture" and cross-cultural contact. With the "Immigrants" ancestry, it indicates that "ethnic Gallenteans" may also have immigrant blood to them (sort of like US Polish-Americans, German-Americans etc.)
However, you're definitely going to have the racial purity types of Luminaire, who are irritated how the ethnicity and culture of their homeword has been tainted by ze blood of a thousand immigrants or whatever. Traditionalist Jin-Mei and Intaki will not approve of marrying outside the culture perhaps due to Reborn/Caste reasons perhaps.
Minmatar
If Tribe is tied to ethnicity, then this is very likely frowned upon. A Tribe's identity would likely be threatened if they mixed about. However, since 1/5 of Minmatar are in the Feds (those varying between tribal traditionalists or being Gallenteanized), then they might have an occurence of being mixed. If they chose to return to the Republic, how would they be treated?
Caldari
For a nation that wishes to hold onto its cultural identity from external influences, then marrying outside the culture is probably disliked heavily. We also have distinct Civire and Deteis ethnicities; I began to wonder that since Civire are the workers and Deteis are the leaders, then there isn't much opportunity for Civire/Deteis to establish relationships or contacts with each other, as there would be a class/lifestyle gap between them.
Amarr
Frowned upon again here probably, if True Amarr are the "chosen race"? Don't want to taint the chosen race with the genes of a foreign bloodline of course. Likely instances of True Amarr holders smexing up slaves and having illegal offspring though.
Anyway, would like to hear your thoughts and counterthoughts on this.
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Gallente
Because of national and cultural pride, crossbreeding with other 'less enlightened' cultures would be frowned upon. Those with pure Gallentean ancestry being more close to the ideal mentality of a citizen having easier access to governmental jobs and places of power. The Intaki would frown upon tainting their spiritually enlightened lineages that allow the Reborn process to succeed more easily, with less memory loss and their concept of karma.
Minmatar
If you go with the noble savage concept, then a Minmatar could breed whomever they wanted as long as the offspring would be strong/viable enough to strengthen the tribe and the Republic as whole. Voluval is a pretty good way to test the offspring. Of course none of this matters if one of the Elders decides something else.
Caldari
I would think that the culture is the thing that a Caldari is measured with. If someone would know the ins and the outs within the culture, they would be accepted. Therefore crossbreeding would be a moot point, as long as things were done in a proper way and the offspring itself raised to the highest standard possible. Being a mongrel could even be an incentive to outdo the purebloods, causing more competition within the system and making the whole State stronger.
Amarr
Bestiality.
Need I say more?
Edit: I didn't touch the fluff bloodlines for a reason.
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I learnt that the UK has a much higher instance of mixed race marriages and children than in the US.
Current census has this the other way around, though the UK figures are a decade out of date.
I mostly agree with what you've said on the factions. I think the Federation's view on the subject is going to be heavily slanted by what system you're in, with the home systems having the strongest blocs of 'purity'. One thing I've grown increasingly curious about is how the Caldari who stayed in the Federation style themselves, but that's probably a subject for a different thread. I bet, though, that they don't like to marry outside themselves.
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I've always figured that caldari value culture over bloodlines. Although it is probably mixed nowadays, with all the provist's influences.
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Otherwise pretty much agreeing with everything Lallara (and Seri, really) wrote, except..
Gallente
Because of national and cultural pride, crossbreeding with other 'less enlightened' cultures would be frowned upon. Those with pure Gallentean ancestry being more close to the ideal mentality of a citizen having easier access to governmental jobs and places of power. The Intaki would frown upon tainting their spiritually enlightened lineages that allow the Reborn process to succeed more easily, with less memory loss and their concept of karma.
I think that would represent the other end of the spectrum for the Gallente and Intaki. Both cultures also have their very strong open-minded branches, which would also imply that there would be great exceptance for mixed ethnicities. Most of out of all the factions, the Gallente/Intaki views would be spread along a spectrum.
Overall, I think the more accepting viewpoint would be more dominant for both bloodlines, though. They'd see diversity as increasing their collective strength (while the spiritualist Intaki would argue that spirituality is not tied to the flesh). But there'd always be a sub-set of extremists who'd disagree and go for racial purity.
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I think one thing that pervades these sorts of topic in EVE RP is that the majority of us are from liberal backgrounds IRL, so concepts of cultural/racial protectionism (whatever the term may be) would be alien to us as players, and we are more likely to interpret it as racism as opposed to a cultural facet. The exception is the Amarr as they have explicit counter-liberal ideas in their PF from the bat, without having to dig into PF (eg. slavery)
It's the same with discussion of gender, where it is more inclined to descend into accusations of a player's sexist interpretation if their viewpoint on a faction is anything but gender/sexual equality at all levels. For example, I would think the Gallenteans have less of an issue with institutional inequality , sexual discrimination and gender stereotypes, but instead have strong definitions of masculinity and femininity (like jocks and cheerleaders), especially with an individualistic culture "to be yourself". Caldari may be asexual in terms of sexual expression (expression being individualistic based on your identity, gender being a facet of this), while Minmatar/Amarr may have concepts of matriachs and patriachs, with men/women fulfilling different roles. I believe the old Emperor Family NPC corp desc said how the mother and wife of an emperor have strong influence on his politics, lending to the idea of female domination of the private sphere and "influencing behind-the-scenes".
A complete digression from my own OP but :P
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I think one thing that pervades these sorts of topic in EVE RP is that the majority of us are from liberal backgrounds IRL
Come on, we're old Nazi allies here in Finland!
Oops, there goes the thread. :bear:
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Gallenteans:
Fairly open about these things, but as stated, there are likely some racial purity types.
Caldari:
They're a meritocracy. If you fit into the society, know your place, and have earned what you're asking to do (in this case, sleep with a caldari) then there's likely to be no problem with it, and with the need for more workers, immigration to the state is likely encouraged.
Minmatar:
As stated, if a tribe is tied to a genetics, this would be seen as a problem. If. However, that's not to say that its not possible for a non-matari to become a part of a tribe/clan/whatever if they work hard enough to earn it.
Amarrian:
I see this as interesting. In traditional Amarrian society, except for the true amarr holders, I don't think there would really be a need to be amarrian, merely to be faithful.
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Good points from everyone.
Let's not forget Uriam Kador slumming it with a Gallente woman. As Mukk Raker would say, "Scandal!" "Shocking!" I have a feeling his ill-timed invasion of the Federation had something to do with this. Maybe trying to save face a bit?
We've also got an Udorian as an Heir now, the first non true-amarr, I have to assume they are quickly marrying and breeding their way into better 'stock'.
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[mod]Please don't let this thread go pear-shaped. We're keeping an eye on it, of course.[/mod]
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Please don't let this thread go pear-shaped. We're keeping an eye on it, of course.
See? :D There's a very different world outside the West
I'd have to disagree with the Caldari "work over bloodline". They are a closed society. They booted out all the Gallentean expatriates regardless of whether or not they were hard workers or not, but that said, :tonyg: and :empyreanage:
There's a strong Japanese influence, and they are very adamant cultural purists. More than one source leans them towards "close to xenophobic"
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I'd have to disagree with the Caldari "work over bloodline". They are a closed society. They booted out all the Gallentean expatriates regardless of whether or not they were hard workers or not, but that said, :tonyg: and :empyreanage:
That does actually make sense based on the earliest PF as well. The whole Mordu debacle and the Intaki who fought for the State. They certainly displayed their loyalty, but they were heavily ostracized. Yeah, hmm.
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[mod]Please don't let this thread go pear-shaped. We're keeping an eye on it, of course.[/mod]
See? :D There's a very different world outside the West
[mod]I think everyone here understands that. What we want to avoid is insulting RL cultures in any way or denigrating players.[/mod]
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Are we talking about 'cultural' attitudes about interracial relationships? Because if we are, the Jin'Mei might have a different perspective than the Gallente culture, and the Intaki might as well. You see where I'm going with this I hope...
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Are we talking about 'cultural' attitudes about interracial relationships? Because if we are, the Jin'Mei might have a different perspective than the Gallente culture, and the Intaki might as well. You see where I'm going with this I hope...
Yes.
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I'm sure racial tolerance is variable based on planet as well. Border regions might see a greater influx of intermixed relationships in relative proximity to the line. I'm sure there's plenty of intolerance on Luminaire, especially of Caldari and Amarr. I think it's really hard to generalize this stuff because opinions about it vary so significantly.
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Well.
My character is supposed to be half Brutor and half Sebiestor. When I was creating the backstory for him what I had in mind was something like the relationship between Jake and Beth in Once Were Warriors (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110729/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110729/)). Only without the physical abuse.
Basically mother was a middle status clanswoman working for Urban Management, and Father is an ex labour slave serving with the Republic Fleet marines. Just to cap it all off Arn's father is much more invested in the corps and his warrior society than any clan. He hasn't even tried to trace which Brutor clan he might be descended from.
I have always figured that the differing attitudes towards clan traditions where what eventually split them up (plus his mother had a promising career to follow) rather than any intrinsic problem with a marriage between different tribes.
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I would assume like IRL, any EVE culture that is steeped in cultural traditions and takes bloodline and heritage very seriously would be opposed to interracial relationships - and I say that without casting a finger-waggle of 'racism!' at it. I am familiar with Native Americans who would be quite upset if their children married outside of their nation/tribe but are not racist. (Hoping that made sense.)
Insofar as EVE, I could picture the Minmatar and Caldari being this way, as they are both cultures that are traditionalists and as far as the Caldari, xenophobic. With the Amarr, it would seem pointless to care because there are so damn many of them, though it would likely be similar to England where the Imperial line would be broken if any of them married/carried the blood of an outsider.
I couldn't see it even being an issue in the majority of the Federation. Don't know enough about the Jin'Mei to really understand their background...
TLDR; Probably would depend on the local standards and whether or not cultural and hierarchical (if that is even a word) requirements dictated a 'pure' racial bloodline.
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I would assume like IRL, any EVE culture that is steeped in cultural traditions and takes bloodline and heritage very seriously would be opposed to interracial relationships - and I say that without casting a finger-waggle of 'racism!' at it. I am familiar with Native Americans who would be quite upset if their children married outside of their nation/tribe but are not racist. (Hoping that made sense.)
Yes. Too often when it's brought up either IC or OOC, the reaction is "racist!!1". Barely so; I think the general notion is that the community wants all four races to come off as liberal and accepting, but "just like RL" is something important to be adopted into RP I think.
Saying "I love you", for example, is a Western thing that is not spoken amongst Asian cultures. Instead, they show their love and dedication through hard work and supporting the family instead. Though "love" in this instance is more duty and loyalty than lustful, soppy feelings. "The family is important and paramount to our lives, and this is my love"
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Caldari
For a nation that wishes to hold onto its cultural identity from external influences, then marrying outside the culture is probably disliked heavily. We also have distinct Civire and Deteis ethnicities; I began to wonder that since Civire are the workers and Deteis are the leaders, then there isn't much opportunity for Civire/Deteis to establish relationships or contacts with each other, as there would be a class/lifestyle gap between them.
I actually kinda like this interpretation, since it plays on the strengths of the people. Which sucks, what with all the foxy Civ wimminz around. D:
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Saying "I love you", for example, is a Western thing that is not spoken amongst Asian cultures. Instead, they show their love and dedication through hard work and supporting the family instead. Though "love" in this instance is more duty and loyalty than lustful, soppy feelings. "The family is important and paramount to our lives, and this is my love"
Hmmm.... I'll have to see if I can pull this off with the wife.
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Saying "I love you", for example, is a Western thing that is not spoken amongst Asian cultures. Instead, they show their love and dedication through hard work and supporting the family instead. Though "love" in this instance is more duty and loyalty than lustful, soppy feelings. "The family is important and paramount to our lives, and this is my love"
我爱你。 (?)
사랑해. (?)
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Saying "I love you", for example, is a Western thing that is not spoken amongst Asian cultures. Instead, they show their love and dedication through hard work and supporting the family instead. Though "love" in this instance is more duty and loyalty than lustful, soppy feelings. "The family is important and paramount to our lives, and this is my love"
I have a bunch of Japanese and Chinese friends who'd beg to differ with you, here.
With regard to Caldari racial tolerance, remember that Mordu's Legion was formed in large part as a reaction to intolerance shown by racial Caldari to the Intaki that fought on their side during the Caldari-Gallente war.
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Saying "I love you", for example, is a Western thing that is not spoken amongst Asian cultures. Instead, they show their love and dedication through hard work and supporting the family instead. Though "love" in this instance is more duty and loyalty than lustful, soppy feelings. "The family is important and paramount to our lives, and this is my love"
I have a bunch of Japanese and Chinese friends who'd beg to differ with you, here.
With regard to Caldari racial tolerance, remember that Mordu's Legion was formed in large part as a reaction to intolerance shown by racial Caldari to the Intaki that fought on their side during the Caldari-Gallente war.
On the other hand, Mordu himself was Caldari and they were assisted in blowing the hell out of said intolerant Caldari by the Caldari Navy. So...yeah.
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On Civire and Deteis being separate: I've often heard the rumour of Word of God existing on them not finding each other attractive, though I've never seen the source. And then, of course, you did assumably have Deteis and Civire assimilate the rarer bloodlines from Caldari Prime during their exile into space.
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Saying "I love you", for example, is a Western thing that is not spoken amongst Asian cultures. Instead, they show their love and dedication through hard work and supporting the family instead. Though "love" in this instance is more duty and loyalty than lustful, soppy feelings. "The family is important and paramount to our lives, and this is my love"
I have a bunch of Japanese and Chinese friends who'd beg to differ with you, here.
Generalizations ("Asian cultures") generally strike me as a bad thing, so yes.
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Well, I would narrow it down to the traditional Indian cultures, in which I'd have direct experience with. There's no soppiness and lust, really, with arranged marriage the norm. The exception is city Indians where it's all very Westernized (first generation immigrants abroad too). The same variances in customs would apply in New Eden as well, unless Gallente romance holos are now impossible to avoid.
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Bacch thinks non-capsuleers are subhuman and the only relationship worth having with them involves either them serving him or servicing him. Does that count? According to his views, those who are not capsuleers are an earlier link in the evolutionary chain, and as such they are animals that look the same but are otherwise inferior.
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Bacch thinks non-capsuleers are subhuman and the only relationship worth having with them involves either them serving him or servicing him. Does that count? According to his views, those who are not capsuleers are an earlier link in the evolutionary chain, and as such they are animals that look the same but are otherwise inferior.
I wish you'd portray that on the IGS a bit Bacc, would make our discussions a lot more interesting and less about KD ratio pounding. I'm serious, a bit more narrative colour would do wonders for your roleplay I think.
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Bacch thinks non-capsuleers are subhuman and the only relationship worth having with them involves either them serving him or servicing him. Does that count? According to his views, those who are not capsuleers are an earlier link in the evolutionary chain, and as such they are animals that look the same but are otherwise inferior.
I wish you'd portray that on the IGS a bit Bacc, would make our discussions a lot more interesting and less about KD ratio pounding. I'm serious, a bit more narrative colour would do wonders for your roleplay I think.
I've gone into it quite a bit in channels. I almost never venture to the IGS, it's a cesspool. :P
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Bit more effort will improve IGS immensely.
It would be much interesting to engage with Bacchanalian the capsuleer surpremacist bigot than it is Bacchanalian the killboard fetishist and improve the quality of interactions distinctively.
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Fun and relevant backstory fact: Andreus is only three-quarters Intaki. His maternal grandmother was Garoun Gallentean. The fact that he was marrying a half-Gallentean was a massive point of contention for Andreus' father, Rohet, with his own father, Ranouk, because it was, as Andreus is never afraid to remind the cantankerous, filicidal old monster, a serious violation of the Ixiris' family traditions.
(Fun and entirely irrelevant fact: my ex was a Welsh half-Malaysian)
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Fun and relevant backstory fact: Andreus is only three-quarters Intaki. His maternal grandmother was Garoun Gallentean.
Oh sweet baby Cthulu.
Andreus could be Zagamesh's cousin. Or Celeste's, for that matter.
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Take this for what it’s worth, as its all conjecture.
One of the Gallente bloodlines is immigrant. I think that speaks for itself. I would imagine that extends to their children born in the Federation.
I think a good example is the U.S.
Culture is more important than race in many ways.
The trend is fairly clear, a person or couple immigrate.
They make a life and try to acclimate to the dominant culture in order to assimilate, but still value their native culture.
Their children are familiar with their “native” culture and language but are more acclimated to the dominant culture.
In many if not most cases the 2nd generation is fairly ignorant of their “native” culture, and even its language.
While the Federation is I think more a mix of American and European Democratic/Cultural models, I would imagine the same would apply.
Many non ethnic Gallentean’s would have assimilated into the dominant culture which is a mishmash of its component cultures.
This is of course complicated by the role of planetary culture in the Federation.
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You know its pretty weird i somehow interpreted gallentean "inmigrants" as gallentean bloodline who left Luminaire and went out to colonize other worlds.
So they are effectively descendants of pure-blood Gallente, but raised under a slightly different enviroment outside of the homeworld.
For example, in my small piece of fiction for the Ellmay System, i explained a specific issue with the lack of easily available drinking water, and therefore a culture around interior gardens was developed, also a local custom of offering a glass of pure water to a guest evolving out of such a situation.
I would expect that given the freedoms in the Federation, almost every planet would have developed a slightly different culture, to the point of attaining a more dramatic scale than what you see comparing different cities inside the same country. Each of them would be an "inmigrant"......
Or maybe i'm just extending way too much the concept?
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the minmatar have their tribes, which have distinct and definite differences in appearance and culture.
and have maintained this, despite difficulties such as any blending during enslavement, or the whole emigrants/immigrants to/from the Federation, or other such things, such as a global/interstellar culture which would tend to promote mixing.
which to me suggests they are possibly a lot more picky about relationships than others.
e.g. the two caldari bloodlines look very similar, you can't say "that's a Civire, that's a Detei", but you can pick out the different tribes a lot more easily (although that may just be an accident of art direction).
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the minmatar have their tribes, which have distinct and definite differences in appearance and culture.
and have maintained this, despite difficulties such as any blending during enslavement, or the whole emigrants/immigrants to/from the Federation, or other such things, such as a global/interstellar culture which would tend to promote mixing.
which to me suggests they are possibly a lot more picky about relationships than others.
e.g. the two caldari bloodlines look very similar, you can't say "that's a Civire, that's a Detei", but you can pick out the different tribes a lot more easily (although that may just be an accident of art direction).
A lot here depends on whether you believe that the tribal bloodlines have been maintained. Ken's plausibly suggested, in his hitchhikers' guide, that the "tribes" are post-Rebellion inventions, complete with official origin stories based on murky tales and wishes. I'd take that further and suggest that the visually-apparent "tribes" might be the result of Amarrian breeding for certain types of work, much as you can tell a Great Dane (boar hunting) from a Border Collie (herding) from a Bichon Frise (companionship).
(One of the possibilities of this view, by the way, is that Sebiestor are generally so pale because most of them are genetically at least half True Amarrian, while the Vherokior are a blend of Matari bloodlines and Khanid. Against that theory is the difference in the life expectancies that were once offered for "Minmatar" and "Amarrians": it'd be interesting to see the Minmatar life expectancies broken down by "tribe" and "slave/free" status.)
(Another possibility is that the Amarrians took slaves from the Matar continent of Mikramurka to Bhizheba, for instance, and then got a bit superstitious about mixing the lines, so tried to source further stock which shared the characteristics of the first lot.)
I'd be very surprised if it turned out that enslaved Matari had intentionally managed to maintain tribal bloodlines through 700-800 years of slavery. That would be a very different model of slavery to the familiar Earth patterns (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1271.msg15261#msg15261): more akin to occupation than slavery, perhaps, which would be possible for some portions of the cluster but hard to reconcile with other parts of what we've seen.
(Detour: Do we know anything about Amarrian technology, culture, and attitudes surrounding birth control? I realised after writing that earlier post that my assumptions about slavery and genetics were forged in times of relatively unreliable birth control. If the done thing is to feed female slaves the local equivalent of RU486 any time their bleeding is overdue and they haven't been put to an approved stud -- and to vasectomise Louella's mancubines (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1271.msg15447#msg15447) -- AND if it's somehow a contamination to mix the elevated Amarrian bloodlines with lesser races, then there might be less genetic mixing than I assume. That still doesn't argue for Minmatar control: the studs used over slaves would most likely have had the qualities their Amarrian holders and managers wished to encourage.)
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Maybe for the sebiestor color skin, but imo CCP introduced their very pale skin to fit with their "spacers" background with their space engineers status (the archetype of people living in space for too long, losing muscles, their skin color, etc). Also note that by deduction thukkers have to be even worse if we follow that reasoning.
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Maybe for the sebiestor color skin, but imo CCP introduced their very pale skin to fit with their "spacers" background with their space engineers status (the archetype of people living in space for too long, losing muscles, their skin color, etc). Also note that by deduction thukkers have to be even worse if we follow that reasoning.
I'm not sure that I follow.
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Well maybe its just me but I remember of some old sebiestor description where their pale skin condition was mentionned as a result for them being mostly a race of spacers and engineers. I think it is out of date now though, thinking of it (or maybe I am just having hallucinations).
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Well maybe its just me but I remember of some old sebiestor description where their pale skin condition was mentionned as a result for them being mostly a race of spacers and engineers. I think it is out of date now though, thinking of it (or maybe I am just having hallucinations).
Lyn, that sounds like the Sebiestor racial description, but those factors are independent, not linked:
Physical description:
The Sebiestors are of slight build, but are lithe and often graceful. Pale, taut skin and thin frame is the norm and these looks lead many to belief they suffer from constant malnutrition and sickness. The Sebiestors favor simple tattoo forms – straight lines and clean patterns, but flowing, symbolic signs are not unheard of.
Brief history:
The Sebiestor tribe hails from the inhospitable steppes of the Mikramurka continent in the northern artic region on Matar. The Sebiestors are the most technically inclined of the Minmatar tribes and were at the forefront in the tentative space exploration program the Minmatars were undertaking just before the Amarrians arrived. Today, most of the Minmatar ships and stations are engineered by Sebiestors.
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Mh yes, brain did some irrelevant links.